Thunder_Gooch

Theurgy, I am open to the possibility that somewhere behind closed doors is a western system that may rival those of the east, for the time being though, I know of no such system. My ignorance doesn't mean that one does not exist however, only that I am ignorant of it. As it stands though, no amount of candle lighting, and chanting of spells and incantations, drawing of sigils, seals, talismans, or brewing of potions, etc is going to produce anything you can repeatedly demonstrate under laboratory conditions. Also as to your list of famous magick practitioners please elaborate how magick worked for them. Just because history remembers your name and you also practiced magick doesn't mean you were able to wield any real power with it.

Practitioner, I am very open, but I would like to see a small shred of tangible evidence before hand. As it stands western practices seem to produce some sort of very subtle effect on ones luck, if anything at all.

I think it's reasonable to ask for some evidence before investing time in a practice, don't you? There are a lot of silly Taoist practices too like drinking urine through your nose, and water with the penis. I see no masters that represent those practices that have accomplished anything meaningful either, so I don't attempt them.

DNB, There is no doubt in my mind that meditation, and exploring inner mental realms, imagery etc may provide profound insights into the nature of reality. Also meditation may help you develop your intuition to know when to act, and how, and when not to act, etc. But no amount of lighting candles, and chanting spells, and drawing sigils, seals, or anything else is going to have any reproducible effect on reality.

I am not sure those are the sorts of results I am looking for, but thanks anyway. I was referring more to effecting reality in some tangible observable way, not gaining insights.

DNB, I'd be interested in hearing your best examples of magick that produced some repeatable, direct cause and effect, stimulus and response type phenomenon. To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing. If there is however I'd like to see your notes and try to recreate it myself.

I have heard of no western traditions producing anything meaninful from their students or their "masters". No sense in wasting your time on a practice if no one ever has gotten any meaninful results from it. Just my $0.02

It's fun to play make believe, LARP is all the rage in the spiritual scene lately.

http://2011-daode.eventbrite.com/ http://laoziacademy.us Lake Murray 131 INNKEEPER DRIVE Lexington, SC 29072 Saturday, September 1, 2012 at 9:00 AM - Monday, September 3, 2012 at 5:00 PM I just thought this might interest someone.

I still haven't found any clear instruction, Daniel Ingrams book was about as no BS of a book on Buddhist practice as I've found, but even then I question what is the point, it seems these practices produce realization in this life, but when this life ends rebirth still continues. If Buddha did teach how to end rebirth that practice is lost or at least kept secret, from lay people.

I've found no clear instruction for any of them anywhere, tummo was the only practice I was able to find a small amount of training info on.

Most of them are my own, the bits I quoted from the magus of Java are not. I believe his observations are accurate though based on my own experiences in meditation. I believe this is some sort of simulation, based on my own experiences. I don't know exactly what it is or its purpose however. An experience I had once, when I was meditating daily: I was at a doctors office and remarked to the nurse how old I was getting, she looked at me and kept laughing this loud obnoxious laugh, and she looked at me all crazy eyed and said "Your still a baby", and kept cackling as I walked out even. This sort of stuck with me, I wonder if right now we are unborn beings in an intermediate realm of sorts, waiting to be born, just a simulation to keep us occupied. I don't really know to be honest.

If there are Buddhist teachings which deal with ending rebirth I have found no information on them. Maybe something like Phowa from the yogas of naropa but I don't have instruction on that, and unsure if it is a valid teaching even if I did. Mostly it seems to me Buddhism is a philosophy that helps make people be ok with the situation they are in rather than try to do something about it. It's a big give up and embrace your fate sort of thing, and I dislike that a lot. I don't think moving into your yin consciousness will prevent rebirth, I think that is what most people call enlightenment in a Buddhist sense. It might help prevent psychological suffering in this lifetime, and it might help improve chances of a better life next go around via good karma, but ultimately it I think it's a futile and pointless endeavor leading to no real gain or advantage in the long run if ending rebirth is the end goal.

For me it is in hopes of preventing rebirth. There may be infinite pain and infinite pleasure awaiting infinite future lives, but really for me I'm done with it. I want out.

If all this troubles you here is some more info that might help: The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (p. 53, 126).

Well it's more like hot and cold, even something we think of as cold is still hot relative to absolute zero, and something we think of as hot is still cold compared to the surface of the sun. So it's all relative, to your perspective. You can heat water and turn it to steam, and you can cool steam and condense it to water. An internal combustion engine will only keep running so long as it has fuel, and air to fuse together to release energy to propel itself forward. I wouldn't say fuel and air are inseparable, as is obvious to anyone who has run out of gas. The yin spirit 99.9999% of people leave behind, as I understand it, is a car that isn't completely built yet, and has no gasoline at all to even try to move if it wanted to.

Think of it like a camera, light enters the lens and is directed towards the film, where it exposes parts of the film that photons hit. This is all a passive process for the camera. At least this is my understanding. Observation and memory will continue past death, ego, identity, emotion, willpower, active thought processes will not. Spirits can be given some yang energy from living beings while they are in a deep trance state, to allow them to interact in a limited fashion, maybe with enough yang energy they can regain some human attributes temporarily.

Yes I believe this is correct.

Buddhism is all about being ok with this process, embracing and giving up and letting it happen. As far as I can tell there are no Buddhist teachings anywhere which deal with ending reincarnation specifically, just some vague promise that if enlightenment is ever attained that reincarnation will stop. It sounds like their version of enlightenment is merely the snuffing out of yang consciousness.

The you that thinks of you as you dies at death unless it's fused with your yin spirit. The yin spirit is just a shell with memory. It can't choose to do anything and has no willpower or emotion or active thought process. At least this is my understanding.

Everyone is already immortal in the sense that their yin spirit will never die, it will begin anew when paired with a new yang spirit at conception. What is lost is ego, identity, memory, personality, etc. You can't just believe yourself to have realized maximum spiritual potential though, I don't think it works like that. Unless we extract enough yin and yang energies during our lifetime, and fuse them together we will die as weak passive yin only spirits, with no willpower, no emotion, no desire, and just passively wait till our reincarnation. It's like most people on earth are caterpillars who are too busy watching TV to eat leaves and weave a cocoon, come winter they all freeze to death and fall off the tree, instead of undergoing metamorphosis. Maybe a few hundred out of billions might make the transition.

Well... You can believe you can fly, doesn't make it so though. I think if you reached the maximum level of spiritual development you would have such abilities, but not before.

More like your mind is the mirror, and you see a reflection of reality. A simulation, a representation of reality. Like a map of the land, and how it isn't the land itself.

If you define having no willpower to do anything at all, no concept or understanding of emotion, Just observing passively with no active thought, to not be an empty shell then I guess it isn't. I think of it more like a black box flight recorder on an airplane, it's what survives after everyone else on board is dead, and hardly a reasonable facsimile.