Thunder_Gooch

Blasto [sarcasm]You must be retarded, everyone knows what it means to plunge the dragon into the tiger cavity while refining the mercury to mix with the lead at the original cavity of the spirit in the gate of the immortals, don't forget to stoke the fiery bellows, you'll know when you see the magic flower petals fall. [/sarcasm] seriously though that book needs to be re-translated into modern simple English, I'd rather pull out my own teeth than attempt to make sense of that word soup of a book.

My gut says no, and I've never heard of people who claim nondualistic awareness that also claim liberation from rebirth.

Will attaining nondualistic awareness, or realizing truth(in a Buddhist sense) end rebirth in your opinion?

I don't know why we are here, or if we are even here at all. I define transcendence as never being reborn. I don't see how attaining non-dualistic awareness is really even related to ending rebirth.

There are many systems, and many more I am unaware of even. I do know that spring forest qigong is effective, and very easy to understand. Hence that is why I think it is the best place to start.

I think several people have probably developed a temporary nondualistic state of awareness from meditating, but I am really not so sure if that is what I am looking for, or even what I define to be enlightenment. It seems like a traumatic brain injury or death of the physical body probably would undo that state of awareness, hence it isn't a permanent attainment. I live everyday with the knowledge I will die, and my base awareness may begin a new dream in a reality similar to this one. I want to rise above that cycle altogether, and only a handful of practices seem to promise that, via an energetic route. I like Robert's system to me it seems like you are feeding and strengthening the inner body preparing for an exit, and I think it might be relevant to my goals. I also think being out of body gives you access to tons of knowledge and experiences you couldn't otherwise attain.

The absolute best system on the market for beginners is Spring Forest Qigong. A lot of people recommend Ken Cohen, but I can't stand him personally.

Yes thank you. I own his book, but never finished it. Hopefully this winter I will have time off from work enough to catch up.

Well I need a away to be able to work part time, to devote more time to training. Right now I have maybe 3 hours each day to myself, and 2 days off a week which are spent playing catch up on chores, laundry, yard work, bills, shopping, house cleaning, etc. I find I am just not happy living this way, work, sleep, work. I want to do more than just work, I want to have time to dedicate to research, meditation and training. I want to own the very minimum to support a basic quality of life, electricity, running water, hot water, a computer and internet access, dependable transportation etc. Once I have gotten my bills and taxes as low as possible I want to work the minimum required to maintain that basic quality of life. This seems to be the most reasonable solution to my problem. I still meditate each night, but being in this high stress 24/7 work environment is killing me and I have to find some other way of living soon.

Yes I believe so also. Instead of dropping me "hints" just elaborate in simple English what the heck you are driving at.

You'd have to elaborate more as I don't really get what you mean. You can post all the esoteric gibberish you want, but who has read it and accomplished anything by following it's teachings to the letter? I don't really much care for taoist wishy washy poetry. I mean sure it's cool to read and appreciate and enjoy the philosophy behind, but philosophy is not training, and philosophizing doesn't accomplish much in the real world.

The people with these accomplishments are the only ones I would even trust enough to accept their opinions. I don't really care about developing powers, only of breaking free of rebirth. As you say these accomplishments are milestones. I view them as a means to an end, but not the point of the practice itself. That may be possible, I don't know. I am only doing what I think most logical and rational. If you want to be a master carpenter, first learn from a master carpenter or so my logic goes.

Well just looking at what is available on the market, people in general don't seem to accomplishing much. A few systems get results in a few specific area's. A few teachers have a good reputation for producing results. The mainstream practices that are commonly used don't really seem to be doing a whole lot to be honest. People sink their entire lives into these things like vipassana, zen, transcendental meditation, etc. all for naught. I just want to see someone who claims to adhere to some practice clearly state it's purpose, and show how effective it has been in practice. I think Jed McKenna says it better than I can:

Well actually I've found several teachers and several systems I like very much and that seem to give real results. Right now I am working too much to devote much of my life to training. I am saving to purchase an acre of land, a camper, a roof over the camper, a washing machine, newer used car, and well and septic. That is my immediate goal. After that milestone I plan on devoting my life to training, and working part time to maintain a minimum standard of living. I am hoping when I have gone as far as I can on my own that the universe will direct me to a new teacher or system to continue my training. I plan on doing the best I can with what I have, that's sort of my personal mantra. Maybe when I master the teachings I already have, better ones will be provided. That's my hope at least.

To be honest when it gets down to the nitty gritty, I don't really know anything for certain, that includes if this world I find myself in is real, or if I even exist to begin with. I have absolutely no idea what enlightenment is, it seems to mean many things to many people. I seek to never be reborn, and maybe to have a painless death. I like the nondualistic models of enlightenment, but I am seeking more of an energetic model as those are the only ones I've heard of breaking the rebirth cycle.

Well I am interested in any information you might have to give, if it's written in laymen's terms, and has some good evidence to back it up. More than discussions on taoist philosophy, I want to see instruction on training, a clearly defined goal for the practice, and some evidence that the training accomplishes it's stated goal. I just don't see much of that anymore. Most books and teachers on the market are just full incomprehensible esoteric gibberish. I don't think the authors even know what they are writing about most of the time. I don't think most of the authors and teachers have accomplished enough to really be writing or teaching. I just honestly question the point of all of it. What is the end goal? How many people practiced and reached the end goal? Is it effective?

I think they are both describing the same thing. Chunyi Lin describes it as going into the emptiness: The state that Robert describes as a deep trance state seems to be the same state chunyi lin refers to as the emptiness. I have no memory issues in that deep state of relaxation/trance, only if I go too deep do I lose consciousness. Robert's system is about a lot of things. It's about learning how to relax and get into a state of deep trance, then how to move energy within your body by feeling it not visualizing it. There is a lot more to it than that but that is gist of it. Chunyi lin mentions that the emptiness is a place where sensory connections to the physical body fade which coincides with a deep trance state. Also Chunyi lin states: which is essentially what Robert's system is about: feeling and not visualizing qi.

I disagree that it is a toy. I am no longer an atheist because of experiences I've had with OBE and similar phenomenon, and that is saying a lot because I was a pretty hard core atheist. Robert Bruce (astral dynamics) has a really amazing system of energetic development. It is really easy to comprehend, understand and put into use. I find many of Robert's insights coincide with other masters like Chunyi Lin of spring forest qigong. The deep trance state Robert and Chunyi discuss in their systems I find absolutely fascinating, as when I achieve a deep trance state reality becomes absolutely amazing to me. I can feel energy flow so perfectly and on occasion affect things outside of my body, or induce an obe. I believe there is a lot more to this system than most others on the market. I am trying to be rational about selecting practices and teachers. Which practices are getting results, and which teachers have actually accomplished something of note. John Chang, Wang Liping, Ram Bahadur Bomjon (assuming they are legit) and Wim Hof (tummo inner fire meditation master) all have accomplished some amazing things. I don't like taking advice from people whom I don't consider accomplished. I am very mentally hygienic in that respect. There is too much BS on the market to consider each practice as equal to all others. I don't like philosophical texts like you recommend. I want straight forward, training manuals with no esoteric jargon gobbledygook. I like things simple and clean cut and explained in a manner so that a 5 year old could comprehend it. I want a practice that has been demonstrated to get results, and a no bs training manual for it, and a teacher that can walk the walk and demonstrate his or her accomplishment in said practice. I'd be interested in what Mr. Olson has accomplished with his life. If he isn't on the level of Chang or Liping I really don't care about anything he's got to offer. We have too many authors and not enough people actually accomplishing anything worth writing a book about. Just my $0.02

I can't really feel any energy movements unless I am first in a deep trance state. When I am in deep trance I can feel energy so strongly there is no doubt in my mind it is a real phenomenon that can interact with the environment around you. I think Robert's concept of deep trance is synonymous with Chunyi Lin's "the emptiness" In spring forest qigong he teaches this as the first and most important teaching to go into the emptiness. -Chunyi Lin Spring Forest Qigong

There is a reason that most adherent's of "serious spiritual traditions" never accomplish accomplish their stated goals. Their practices don't work. I have a friend who has been doing vipassana meditation now for 10 years every day. He goes to the retreats and such every chance he gets. I asked him last time I saw him if he was any closer to his goal of enlightenment and liberation than the day he started. He replied with an explanation about waiting for spontaneous instant enlightenment after many more years of practicing he thought it would come to him. I asked him if that had happened to anyone he had ever heard about in his school, to which he responded only with silence. I asked if actually anyone in his school that he had ever heard of had achieved enlightenment through their training, again silence. I didn't expect an answer as I meant those questions rhetorically, if Buddhist or mainstream taoist practices were producing any real enlightened being's it would be all over the news. I love my friend but he will die before he get's any closer to his goals, because modern "serious spiritual traditions" don't work. None of the mainstream schools are producing enlightened liberated students, only peaced out hippies. You can chant "om padme hum" till your teeth fall out, spin around in circles as a whirling dervish, trip your balls off with all kinds of shamanic entheogens, pray at a church, mosque or synagog, cast wiccan spells you buy off ebay or find at your local discount wicca-mart, preform guided meditations, try yogic flying, etc and you still aren't going to achieve anything other than an empty wallet as a result of your efforts. I like systems which actually produce results, Robert Bruce's system is one such system. I've had several OBE's with his method. I believe I actually made contact with another person during an obe as we both have shared memories of the event. I have noticed that during an OBE your ability to move chi into, through, and outside of your body is enhanced several hundred fold. In fact the only time other people have been able to even feel energy from me was when I was in a deep trance state having a near OBE like experience. One of my personal goals for OBE training is to become advanced enough to seek out high level teachers in the astral, I know it sounds crazy but there sure is a shortage here on earth.

Seeing as most pro-biotic pills are 100% dead bacteria I would have to agree. Most people that have IBS have it due to a disruption of good intestinal flora though, so functional pro-biotics that actually colonize the GI tract would be of tremendous benefit. Clostridium difficile an impossible to kill spore forming bacteria that produces toxins which attack your intestinal lining, and candida and other yeasts can and do cause IBS symptoms. In nursing homes and hospitals C. Diff infections run rampant especially if the patients are prescribed antibiotics which kill off the good bacteria which keeps C. Diff at bay. Healthy people literally die from prolonged C. Diff it's that bad. Most pro-biotics you buy will be 100% dead bacteria and 100% useless. Yogurt and kefir might help temporarily but their bacteria is transitory and does not colonize the colon. lactobacillus sporogenes (also known as bacillus coagulans) is a good healthy spore forming bacteria which survives being dehydrated in it's spore form. It will also readily colonize the colon if taken in sufficient amounts. You can make your own yogurt using that species of bacteria and get thousands of times the dose of one pill. Changing the diet, finding and avoiding food allergies, eating less sugary and carb heavy foods, that is good advice, but if the underlying cause is bad bacterial/fungal overgrowth in the GI tract or lack of good bacteria to balance it I don't see how eating better will solve the problem.

I think bruce's system of energy work is a pretty solid foundation. I'd recommend bruce's work and spring forest qigong to anyone.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1571746161/ Astral Dynamics 2nd edition by Robert Bruce is pretty much the definitive guide to OBEs. I highly recommend reading it.

Laotzu, I am willing to bet a round of lactobacillus sporogenes (also known as Bacillus coagulans) made into a yogurt and consumed daily till your bottle of bacteria runs out will fix your IBS symptoms. If you decide to try lactobacillus sporogenes as a treatment and it doesn't fix your problem I will personally refund the cost of a bottle via paypal to you. Most people diagnosed with IBS really have Clostridium difficile infections. C. Diff is a bad spore forming bacteria that produces toxins that attack your intestines causing the IBS symptoms. Also a yeast called candida can cause IBS symptoms. Flooding your GI tract with lactobacillus sporogenes yogurt each morning for a month+ will most likely restore balance to your intestinal flora. Most commercial probiotics you buy are going to be dead bacteria as they do not survive dehydration, lactobacillus sporogenes forms spores which survive the dehydration process. What I recommend you do is to buy a bottle of lactobacillus sporogenes off amazon, and make a yogurt with it using milk. Pour one pill into a pint of milk before bed, close the cap and shake. Drink it in the morning and do that until all your lactobacillus sporogenes pills are used up. I know a lot about this topic as it's affected me, and several people I know personally. The lactobacillus sporogenes bacteria seems to readily colonize the colon and restore balance. Other people here have suggest other strains of bacteria which may also be useful if lactobacillus sporogenes fails you. That's just my $0.02. I hope you feel better.

One thing to note is that most commercial probiotics don't actually survive being dried out. You essentially pay for a bottle of dried out dead bacteria. I know lactobacillus sporogenes also known as bacillus coagulans forms spores which survive intact in powdered form. I highly recommend it.