NotVoid

Hi PLB. Which students of Yang Chengfu do you think stated that one should focus on the dantian? Fu Zhongwen's comments about not focusing on dantian and not focusing on or doing any special breathing do not seem at odds with what other students of Yang Chengfu have stated or written, from what I have personally come across anyway. Also, coordinating breathing with the movements does not require focusing on the breathing. In my own experience, coordinated breathing should occur naturally when doing the tai chi forms for anyone who has been practicing for a while. The main important principles of Yang style tai chi are typically described as follows. Notice that focusing on dantian or doing special breathing are not mentioned as requirements. Also 'Sinking the chi to dantian' is supposed to occur naturally if one is adhering to the 10 essential principles. This should not require any special focus. Styles other than Yang family style tai chi may possibly have some variation in views, but the essential principles for all styles of tai chi should be pretty close to what is listed below I think, otherwise it wouldn't be tai chi. This excerpt is taken from: http://yangfamilytaichi.com/about/study/#theory Theory 1. What is the 10 essential of tai chi chuan ? Following are the Ten Essentials of Tai Chi Chuan Orally transmitted by Yang Chengfu Recorded by Chen Weiming Translated by Jerry Karin: Empty, lively, pushing up and energetic 'Pushing up and energetic' means the posture of the head is upright and straight and the spirit is infused into its apex. You may not use strength. To do so makes the back of the neck stiff, whereupon the chi and blood cannot circulate freely. You must have an intention which is empty, lively (or free) and natural. Without an intention which is empty, lively, pushing up and energetic, you won't be able to raise your spirit. Hold in the chest and pull up the back The phrase 'hold in the chest' means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the cinnabar field (dan1 tian2). The chest must not be puffed out. If you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region, the upper body becomes heavy and lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. 'Pulling up the back' makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to pull up the back. If you can pull up the back, then you will be able to emit a strength from the spine which others cannot oppose. Relax the waist The waist is the commander of the whole body. Only after you are able to relax the waist2 will the two legs have strength and the lower body be stable. The alternation of empty and full all derive from the turning of the waist. Hence the saying: 'The wellspring of destiny lies in the tiny interstice of the waist. Whenever there is a lack of strength in your form, you must look for it in the waist and legs. Separate empty and full In the art of Tai Chi Chuan, separating full and empty is the number one rule. If the whole body sits on the right leg, then the right leg is deemed 'full' and the left leg 'empty'. If the whole body sits on the left leg, then the left leg is deemed 'full' and the right leg 'empty'. Only after you are able to distinguish full and empty will turning movements be light, nimble and almost without effort; if you can't distinguish them then your steps will be heavy and sluggish, you won't be able to stand stably, and it will be easy for an opponent to control you. Sink the shoulders and droop the elbows Sinking the shoulders means the shoulders relax open and hang downward. If you can't relax them downward, the shoulders pop up and then the chi follows and goes upward, causing the whole body to lack strength. Drooping the elbows means the elbows are relaxed downward. If the elbows are elevated then the shoulders are unable to sink. When you use this to push someone they won't go far. It's like the 'cut off' energy of external martial arts. Use Intent Rather than Force The taiji classics say, "this is completely a matter of using intent rather than force'. When you practice taijiquan, let the entire body relax and extend. Don't employ even the tiniest amount of coarse strength which would cause musculo-skeletal or circulatory blockage with the result that you restrain or inhibit yourself. Only then will you be able to lightly and nimbly change and transform, circling naturally. Some wonder: if I don't use force, how can I generate force? The net of acupuncture meridians and channels throughout the body are like the waterways on top of the earth. If the waterways are not blocked, the water circulates; if the meridians are not impeded the chi circulates. If you move the body about with stiff force, you swamp the meridians, chi and blood are impeded, movements are not nimble; all someone has to do is begin to guide you and your whole body is moved. If you use intent rather than force, wherever the intent goes, so goes the chi. In this way - because the chi and blood are flowing, circulating every day throughout the entire body, never stagnating - after a lot of practice, you will get true internal strength. That's what the taiji classics mean by "Only by being extremely soft are you able to achieve extreme hardness." Somebody who is really adept at taiji has arms which seem like silk wrapped around iron, immensely heavy. Someone who practices external martial arts, when he is using his force, seems very strong. But when not using force, he is very light and floating. By this we can see that his force is actually external, or superficial strength. The force used by external martial artists is especially easy to lead or deflect, hence it is not of much value. Synchronize Upper and Lower Body In the taiji classics 'Synchronize Upper and Lower Body is expressed as: "With its root in the foot, emitting from the leg, governed by the waist, manifesting in the hands and fingers - from feet to legs to waist - complete everything in one impulse." * When hands move, the waist moves and legs move, and the gaze moves along with them. Only then can we say upper and lower body are synchronized. If one part doesn't move then it is not coordinated with the rest. Match Up Inner and Outer What we are practicing in taiji depends on the spirit, hence the saying: "The spirit is the general, the body his troops". If you can raise your spirit, your movements will naturally be light and nimble, the form nothing more than empty and full, open and closed. When we say 'open', we don't just mean open the arms or legs; the mental intent must open along with the limbs. When we say 'close', we don't just mean close the arms or legs; the mental intent must close along with the limbs. If you can combine inner and outer into a single impulse*, then they become a seamless whole. (Practice) Continuously and Without Interruption Strength in external martial arts is a kind of acquired, brute force, so it has a beginning and an end, times when it continues and times when it is cut off, such that when the old force is used up and new force hasn't yet arisen, there is a moment when it is extremely easy for the person to be constrained by an opponent. In taiji, we use intent rather than force, and from beginning to end, smoothly and ceaselessly, complete a cycle and return to the beginning, circulating endlessly. That is what the taiji classics mean by "Like the Yangtze or Yellow River, endlessly flowing." And again: "Moving strength is like unreeling silk threads". These both refer to unifying into a single impulse*. Seek Quiescence within Movement External martial artists prize leaping and stopping as skill, and they do this till breath (chi) and strength are exhausted, so that after practicing they are all out of breath. In taiji we use quiescence to overcome movement, and even in movement, still have quiescence. So when you practice the form, the slower the better! When you do it slowly your breath becomes deep and long, the chi sinks to the cinnabar field (dan tian) and naturally there is no deleterious constriction or enlargement of the blood vessels. If the student tries carefully he may be able to comprehend the meaning behind these words.

Hello arjun. Did you confuse Clément with the user called Clarity?

Another riddle. Then mind will be left out of it. But what is the difference between mind and it?

I like riddles. Mages practice magic. Sages practice nothing. What has mastery to do with it?

I live here: Sometimes I spend time in this neighborhood:

Anyone want to try a very simple remote 'healing' experiment with me? I need someone who will try to be fairly neutral and who can act as a test 'receiver'. If anyone out there maybe has some minor chronic aches or issues and the like (or not) and would like to try a very informal experiment with me, I will try to remotely tune in to you on the evening of Jan 1 or after (as we decide), and try to smooth out any minor energy issues. Preferably someone who is not currently doing any intense qigong/nei gong work right now and with no major health conditions so you have a better chance of feeling any more subtle results from the test. Just looking for someone who is going to be neutral and give a little honest feedback if they feel any difference/improvement/boost at all the next day. If you don't feel anything different at all, well that is fine and that is still valid feedback. My 'method' will just be to try to focus in on the person and try to smooth out any imbalances and try to give a little boost as well. You don't need to indicate where the minor aches and pains or whatever are if any, and maybe it would be better not to give any such indication, but just watch for any noticeable changes or energy boost for the next 24 hours or so after the test. This is of course just real informal and more just for curiosity than anything too serious. I had a few interesting results with some family members so thought I would maybe give this a try with someone I don't know. Call it a very informal mind intent experiment. Since this 'experiment' is going to rely mainly on the 'receiver's' personal impressions, it is not very scientific at all, but what the heck, it still might be at least amusing anyway. Anyone want to try? You just never know if you don't even try something...

Hi flowconduit. Ok, I have sent you a PM.

CrunchyChocolate555, I wouldn't take it personally. If the owner of that dog was carrying a muzzle with her, she must have known her dog had some serious aggression issues. I have known lots of people with dogs, but they don't need to have a muzzle with them when they are visiting with other people and bring their dog along. If I understand the situation correctly, it sounds like that is just a very aggressive dog and the owner should not have brought the dog along if she knew it might possibly be aggressive and attack someone. Hope you are alright.

Hi MithShrike. I have read various accounts by people attempting to explain the origin of tai chi chuan, and in my view much of it contains a fair bit of speculation and leaps of faith. Anyway, whether the Chen family's martial arts originated from older Shaolin forms or not, it still wouldn't negate the possibility of whether there was some influence from taoist practices in the formulation of Chen style tai chi chuan forms or not, or in the origin of a particular form. I only commented about the original Yang style form since Fu Zhongwen mentioned it in the interview. Fu Zhongwen was no doubt influenced by the Yang family point of view passed on to him, just as various Chen family practitioners might be influenced by the prevailing point of view of their teachers. The exact origins of tai chi do not matter too much to me. What's important to me is whether it is beneficial or not, and I find that it is quite beneficial. I am aware that there is little to no actual reliable documentation about the origins of tai chi, and that many stories in general about the origins of tai chi are not verifiable, and that is why I don't take the various 'research' into the origins of tai chi too seriously.

Interesting. The daily six to ten sets in a row at about twenty minutes a set is at least doable. The daily minimum of six sets in a row at twenty minutes for each set would be 2 hours, which could be done, but would require some real dedication. Still not so very easy when you are working full time and have all sorts of other responsibilites and committments, as many people do have. His comment that a couple of sets a day is fine for health purposes, is more suitable for most people. Many people practice tai chi chuan mainly for health these days anyway, although not sure how many people who do tai chi for health would regularly even do two sets a day. Fu's comments that the Yang Chen Fu form is pretty much the original form which Yang Luchan learned from Chen Changxing is interesting. I have seen an apparently rare daoist form of tai chi which was referred to as the dragon style of tai chi, which has many movements which look quite similar to the Yang Chenfu form. This dragon style is supposed to have daoist roots however, and is not supposed to be based on the Yang style tai chi. There are some interesting implications there, but none of the actual origins can likely be proven to any degree of course. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Chen family originally developed their tai chi style based on some taoist forms or practices and merged those principles in with their own family martial arts to form the Chen style tai chi forms. It's anyone's guess however as little seems to have been documented way back in those times. The fact that Fu Zhongwen insisted that the Yang Chenfu form is still pretty much the original form that was originally learned from Chen Changxing does raise the question of why the Yang form differs in many ways from the various Chen forms we see these days. This apparent puzzle is also mentioned in some info on Chen Changxing in wikipedia: From wikipedia: "Chen Changxing or Ch'en Chang-hsing (1771–1853) was a 14th generation descendant and 6th generation master of the Chen Family and was an influential martial artist and teacher of taijiquan (t'ai chi ch'uan). Chen Changxing is a slightly mysterious character and much controversy surrounds him. He is most known as the teacher of the great taijiquan master Yang Luchan, but there is much disagreement over which style of martial art Chen Changxing actually taught to the family outsider. Some schools of thought suggest that Chen Changxing was a maverick who practiced and taught a style of martial art that was not part of the Chen Family martial arts tradition, and that was passed to him either directly or indirectly from a taijiquan master known as Jiang Fa. Other schools of thought suggest that Chen Changxing re-worked two or more of the traditional Chen Family routines into his own style and then taught it to Yang Luchan and others. Both schools successfully explain why the taijiquan that Yang Luchan's descendants now practice is substantially different from the modern Chen routines, but neither theory can be completely substantiated and thus much controversy remains. Chen Changxing is said to have been of an irreverent character and was given the nickname "Mr Ancestral Tablet" due to the directness of his posture. In the "The Genealogy of the Chen Family" he is noted as a martial arts instructor, but the detail of the style he taught is not present."

Ok, thanks for the feedback. Even if we allow that this might work to some extent, there are potentiallly so many factors at play that it makes it all pretty tricky to assess, especially with just a single session or two. Anyway, thanks for giving it a go! I plan to conduct a longer term test with a friend who has had persistent high blood pressure, and who is also not on any blood pressure medication. By doing daily sessions and having them take blood pressure readings daily, it should at least provide for more concrete assessment of results.

Hello Aeran. Not sure if you saw my last post here. I would be interested to know if you noticed any difference in energy level and that sort of thing at all on Sunday evening or Sunday night your time.

Hi Aeran. Sure, I am willing to give it a try. If I don't hear back from flowconduit this evening I will try a session for you this evening. I will post an update once I have done the session. Edit: Ok Aeran. I have just finished a session for you. I think this session would have been in the early afternoon Sunday your time, so if you were busy doing something at that time I guess you may not have noticed much. Anyway, if you can let me know if you notice any difference over the next day or so that would be great.

Thanks very much for the feedback flowconduit. That is helpful for me as it allows me to compare your feedback to my own perceptions during the session. If you are up to it, I would like to try a second session again this evening for reinforcement and for further feedback from you. In the mean time take it easy and try not to do anything that might further stress or injure your lower back. Give things some time to heal.

Ok, sure. I am willing to give it a try. I will try this later this evening which I think will be the middle of the night where you are located. I'll make another post here to let you know when I have completed the session. Edit: Ok flowconduit. I have finished the sesssion. If you can let me know if you notice any difference at all over the next day or so i would appreciate it!

Hi Joe. I have found that not all acupuncturists and TCM doctors are of the same caliber or abilities, which I guess goes without saying. Overall, I personally have not had much results with acupuncture or herb doctors when I have tried them in the past however. Also, some conditions can be hard to diagnose or even to detect at all, as you know doubt know. It is possible that certain qigong/neigong or similar practices might help with your condition, but it is hard to say when it is not known what the exact cause or nature of your condition is. One possible practice to consider is the practice of tai chi, as it includes the neigong aspect but also works a lot with gently opening up and exercising the pelvic region and spine, and tai chi has a reputation with helping with some chronic conditions which may not respond well to other treatment options. CK Chu's Nei Kung practice may have a lot or some of this in it as well, but the slow continuous moving and gentle stretching and repetitive way that the tai chi form is practiced seems to have some unique healing aspects to it that are at least worth considering in my view. Good luck with the search!

I thought this might be both interesting and fun at the same. I have put an image up on my computer screen which I will be focusing on from time to time throughout the day with the idea of sending the image out to people on the tao bums forum. If anyone wants to give this a try, fire up the blank screen in your mind's eye and see if you can pick up what the image is I will be focusing on. Post your best guess here in this thread. I will post up the the actual image I was focusing on after a day or so depending on the responses. Now this does not take too much effort, so give it a try! The only hint I will give is that the image I have chosen to focus on is not so busy that just any answer could be right.

Well it seems that many people may be a little bit timid, or possibly much more interested in how to pick up women (another thread here right now) than trying to exercise their intuition a little bit. It also appears I may not be a very good 'sender', but kudos to zanshin for her guess of a star. Although the actual image is not really a star, it does look somewhat like the way stars are sometimes depicted in drawings, so I personally think that is a quite interesting result. Good job Zanshin! Aetherous, I do have a desk calender on my computer table which has a picture of some mountain peaks with some snow on the top of them and with lots of greenery at their lower slopes, and with a mountian lake in front of the mountain peaks, but that is not the image I was focusing on for 'sending'. I guess we can't really call that a hit, and it could of course easily be a coincidence since mountains with snow on top are not uncommon in pictures, but just thought I should mention it anyway, as it is at least possible you picked up on that. Here's the actual image I have had up on my computer monitor since yesterday, and which I was focusing on with the idea of trying to send the image out to people at the tao bums. It is the inner portion of one variation of the so called 'sri yantra'. This is a fairly simple image which seems to stand out well with sharp contrast, so I thought it might be a good choice for this sort of test. Thanks to everyone who participated! Even with just the few people who participated it turned out quite interesting. I think it is interesting that most people saw actual objects and not abstract drawings. Not sure if that signifies anything however. There were some interesting responses at any rate!

As I mentioned previously in this thread, there are/have been a lot of different systems and practices out there. Even in my own limited experience these various systems do not all take the same approach, or view things the same way. Just within 'daoism' itself, which actually encompasses a lot of different systems and views and practices, these various systems, goals, practices, and views can vary quite a lot. When you add in other sources of internal cultivation such as from buddhism and martial arts traditions and various private family cultivation traditions, etc., you have many different approaches and systems and views. You may be able to come up with some sort of consensus of view here, but it won't likely reflect the actual full variety of systems and practices and views which are actually out there. From what I have encountered, not all teachers even put the 'dantians' at the same location. The way different systems cultivate dantian seems to have a lot of variation. People need to get away from this idea that 'it is all the same thing' and consider that there really seems to be a lot of different systems which were developed with different goals, different views, and sometimes very different approaches. All these approaches and views may and probably do have at least some common characteristics, but there are what appears to be quite definite differences as well. Even within daoist internal alchemy for example, different lineages may take somewhat different approaches and have different views. From what I have seen, there are martial practices, medical and health practices, spiritual cultivation practices, and other practices as well that may not fit any one particular pidgeon hole. Many of these practices may have quite different approaches and views. This has been my own experience anyway. Some systems require strict celibacy for certain practices in their system, while other systems or practices may not have any such restrictions. Different systems, different views, different goals, different practices. If you are looking for a generic term, then 'cultivating dantian' might work somewhat, but it would really seem that exactly how the lower dantian or other points/meridians/channels/centers/areas are viewed and exactly how they are used and cultivated in any particular system can vary a fair bit from system to system, lineage to lineage, and practice to practice.

Are you sure you are not just really hungry right now?

Thanks ChiForce. If you say that you you feel your chi active all over your body during the day and it gets stronger at night, then that might make it hard for you to feel much difference overall, energetically wise. I don't see any obvious connection with the dream images you described. Although my main intention was to send postive energy to your entire body, I did focus a bit more in the area of your lower legs and feet, as I usually start focusing in that area and work my way up. Based on your response I think I will have to put this one as a negative result. Thanks a lot for giving this a try!

ChiDragon, your opinions are just as valid here as anyone else's, but from my perspective I think where some people may be having a bit of an issue is where you sometimes seem to state your personal opinions and beliefs as if it is absolute and incontrovertible fact, rather than just your own personal views and beliefs and interpretations. You are certainly not the only one who ever does that here however. My advice for anyone for what it is worth would be to try to relax more and try not to take more mundane things so seriously, especially in an internet discussion forum such as this. If on any given day, if even just 0.001% of what people posted in an internet forum such as this had some actual basis in reality then we should probably consider that a very good day indeed, and I am probably being generous with that. My own silly opinion is people really should focus on getting more in tune with nature, and yes, that is a loaded statement. All the best...

Ok ChiForce, I have finished the session now. Maybe give it a good day and then if you can let me know if you have perceived anything on any level which you would consider to be different or out of the ordinary for you. I guess we should consider anything that might stand out on the physical, energetic, emotional, mental, or spirtual levels to be thorough. If you have perceived nothing out of the ordinary at all after about a day, don't hesitate to say so. I will be interested to hear from you no matter what the results may be. Negative results will only encourage me to work harder. I will keep my own perceptions during the session to myself until I hear back from you. Have a good evening/night or whatever it may be now in your time zone...

Sure, any perceptions are welcomed. I wasn't referring so much to mood changes, although that is possible as well, but more how you might feel on a physical and energetic level. Will probably start in an hour or so. Will do some cultivation practice first.

I am familiar to some degree with the concepts of xing and ming, and your interpretations on these as well. What I was really getting at with my comment to you was that when taoism in general is referred to as in the OP, I think we have to consider all taoist traditions as a whole however. There is not really one cohesive taoist tradition, but many different traditions with various views and practices which arose at different points through history. Quanzhen is only one taoist tradition amongst many taoist traditions, and it is a relatively later taoist tradition. The views in other taoist traditions can vary to some degree. The e-book I referred to in another post here provides a detailed view into another such taoist tradition, for example. Actually a very interesting book for those who may want to learn more about authentic taoist practices and views which existed before the culural revolution. Another interesting book of this type is 'The Teachings of Daoist Master Zhuang' - by Michael Saso, which provides a lot of insight into the Zhengyi Dao tradition, if I recall correctly. Quite informative books.