NotVoid

Hi rene. The questions and thoughts I expressed are sincere. For some, imagination and pretense are not really so much of interest.

It sounds possibly something like what Lao Tzu was describing, but we are left with trying to figure out how to get to such a state. When our stomach is empty and maybe some of our neighbors or others want to cause harm to us, we have to be practical and find solutions, but how do we get to a state where we can take care of every day affairs and still always act in the most appropriate way in all situations we encounter? If I were Lao Tzu, and I knew a way to achieve such a state, I might very well be inclined to provide some guidance on that. Next time I read through the tao te ching I will try to look at it more from that perspective and see what stands out to me. Who knows what is hidden in there?

I think Westerners may tend to get tripped up because they are inclined to think of 'taoism' as some very homogenous system, but what is called taoism now actually describes a wide variety of different practices and views with many different sources, and which do not necessarily have a whole lot of commonality or similarities. Also there was a wide variation in focus and themes from group to group and throughout time as well. It is not like Christianity where most groups closely follow one source (the bible) so many Christian groups have a lot of commonality. Taoism had many varied sources with widely varying focus and views. It was only later (maybe when buddhism started to be an influence in China) that some tried to piece it more together under the banner of Taoism. You then had the idea of a more coherent system, which actually wasn't really so much that at all, in my understanding. Practices of magic and divining and seeking immortality (immortality takes on a more symbolic meaning of spiritual transformation in many more modern taoist groups) probably had roots in shamanism and folk religion, and in some popular views of the time. Some Taoists might say that it all really wasn't so haphazard, that there was more commonality and purpose to it than that, and some say their systems actually pre-date Lao Tzu, but who can say? There are not a whole lot of written records found from Lao Tzu's time or earlier. Hope that clarifies it a bit more.

Aye, and earthworms can't really do much when a robin scoops them up and eats them. Is the earthworm wise? Is the robin wise? Does wisdom even have anything to do with it? If I had my choice, I would rather take steps to avoid getting eaten. However, if a robin is not trying to eat me or other people, I see no reason to interfere with the robin or the worm. The worm loses however. I now feel bad for the worm. Maybe I should help the worm, but then the robin will suffer. The more I analyze, the more I end up with quandaries. It would seem we need a very different approach if we are to have any chance of moving beyond such limitations.

Aye, but now we have the problem of how do we reach this state? As mr. Marblehead mentioned, just doing nothing isn't going to help us out in any practical way. Lao Tzu seems to speak of the sage, but how does one get to that state? Is this truly within reach, or just an ideal imagined up in some fanciful writings? I don't have any answers, just throwing out the question. Maybe this should move to another thread, but the OP seems to have dissolved into the void at this point.

This is along the lines of what I was alluding to, although you have added something there that wasn't specifically written to try to make sense of it. It does seem that we may well have to read between the lines to try to make sense of this however. I would be more inclined to think it has something to do with what I was trying to allude to, where if we hold too much certainty in our very limited relative knowledge and use this relative 'knowledge' as a basis or guide for 'wisdom' for all our actions and decisions, that we can easily be led astray, and this can well lead to undesirable results. This kind of brings us to the question of how then can we always act the most appropriately in all situations? Is it even possible to get there? What would guide us? I don't think there is any much chance of ever getting there through rational analysis and thought. Our minds and thinking are very limited. Our relative knowledge is also subsequently very limited. It would seem that the only chance of getting there, assuming it is even possible and not just an unreachable ideal, would have to be through some other means. If that were the case and Lao Tzu knew the means, perhaps Lao Tzu described this or hinted at this in his text. We may possibly have to read between the lines a lot more to find it however. Just throwing out some ideas on the matter. I certainly don't think there are any easy or definite answers to any of this. I think it is much simpler however to just consider the question, what do we truly know for certain?

Sorry, I edited my post too slow and you had already replied. I decided to say it a different way. In the first version of my reply, I was trying to see where following a certain perspective would lead me. After reviewing what I wrote, I decided I was unnecessarily complicating the matter, so I rewrote my comment. I will repeat the new version of my reply here and delete it from the previous to maintain the timeline: If we truly let go and submit fully to the natural way, are we then wise? If we speak of wisdom, then again, how do we decide what is truly wise and what is actually foolishness? It seems wisdom can not exist without its counterpart. Counterparts exist in a relative frame of reference only. What is tzujan in your view?

I am only asking questions. I prefer simple. The more complex things are, the more I have to strain to try to consider them. If tzujan, then what need do we have for a concept of wisdom?

What or who guides wisdom, and what or who decides whether an action is truly wise or actually foolish? A tree stump's existence merely follows the natural laws of the Earth. Does it need to be wise or knowledgeable to do so?

End wisdom, abandon knowledge, the people benefit a hundred times. ... Tao unfolds naturally. --- --- --- Looking down on others because their views or ways are different, even though they cause no harm to us or to others, is this really beneficial? Who is benefitting, and how are they benefitting? Who is truly right, and who is truly better? Does the eagle view the robin with disrespect because its ways are different? The eagle allows the robin to be a robin. Are knowledge and wisdom merely guises for deception? What do we truly know for certain?

Best wishes in your search for improvement to your health conditions.

What can we really say for certain?

Regarding using a machine to visualize chi, here is something interesting. The glow that is seen around people's finger tips in kirlian photography is nothing unusual, it is just a form of high voltage discharge called corona discharge. Also the colors seen in traditional kirlian photography are not really meaningful. However, many years ago some scientists tested Uri Gellar (who was well known for being able to make keys and spoons bend by only lightly stroking them) and another guy who was an 'energy healer', using kirlian photgraphy. They asked these subjects to try to project their energy in different ways and also to try to control the shapes of the discharge patterns around their finger tips. In the kirlian photographs for both subjects you could see very unusual discharge patterns extending around and away from their finger tips, or even completely disconnected from their finger tips a short distance away. Uri Gellar posted up some of those kirlian photographs that were taken by the scientists in those experiments on his website. You can view the photographs here: Kirlian photographs taken of Uri gellar (You can click on the photos to view them full size). Notice how Geller was able to project something from his finger tips that was able to cause very unusual discharge patterns to occur. Normally discharge patterns in kirlian photography only exist where there are grounded conductive objects placed in the high votlage field, but Gellar was able to extend something beyond his finger tips just through mind intention, which caused discharge patterns where there were no actual objects, and these extended discharge patterns also followed quite closely what Gellar was instructed to do before each picture was taken. Either whatever Gellar is able to project or control/activate appears to have some characteristic to it which can produce corona discharge itself, or Gellar was able to manipulate the corona discharge (a plasma) through mind intention and make it move where and how he was instructed to with just his mind. Either way, it should not be possible. Geller really does appear to have some unusual abilities, and it does appear he is able to project some sort of energy/chi from his hands.

From what I have seen, not everyone practices and teaches tai chi the same way. Some people seem to approach tai chi training as more like an external martial art, where others teach that one must completely relax and never tense up or otherwise use obvious force when practicing tai chi. My guess would be that some teachers who have a strong background in more external style martial arts, may have learned tai chi from someone and then combined the tai chi with some of their external martial arts training approaches. In the so called Tai Chi Classics however, it would seem that the approach of staying completely relaxed and allowing your body to slowly transform at its own natural pace will eventually lead to similar results of 'iron body', but this comes about naturally through years of diligent and proper practice. Those looking for quicker results from the martial arts perspective may mix in external martial arts practice methods in order to achieve practical martial skills faster, but in my view this may hinder or prevent the long term natural development of deeper internal skill. Many modern day Wudang Taoists also seem to mix hard and soft training practices, but I have no idea if these training methods really accurately reflect traditional Wudang internal martial arts training methods. Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter. No actual answers. Edit: For clarification, when I said above that proper practice will "eventually lead to similar results of 'iron body'", I don't mean practicing tai chi will lead to a hard style 'iron body', but with years of proper training in tai chi the body becomes more resistant to blows due to development of internal energy and the natural changes that the body undergoes as a result of this long term internal training. Some teachers may have added other practices to their teaching regime that develop other sorts of skills.

Specifically when and where did Moy Lin Shin claim to be a lineage holder of the Xiantian Wuji Sect? Moy Lin Shin claimed to have studied at a temple in China from that lineage when he was a youth, but I am not aware of him ever having claimed to be a lineage holder of that sect. The temple he cofounded in Hong Kong (Fung Loy kok) was affiliated with the Yuen Yuen Institute which traces its lineage back to the Longmen sect. The temple he cofounded in Hong Kong was built on the grounds of the Yuen Yuen Institute (http://www.yuenyuen.org.hk).

hello to all.