NotVoid

No, I read his original book on Kunlun years ago, and the impression he gave in the book was Kunlun was some esoteric practice which he learned in his travels to the far east from some unmentioned teacher, from what I recall. I can't tell from what you wrote if Max Christensen is now saying somewhere where he actually learned his 'kunlun' from, or was this from other people's comments? At any rate, Jenny Lamb has not taught something called 'kunlun' that I know of. She has been teaching something she calls yigong however. I was just mentioning this for something to be aware of. The blurb on Max's current website about Kunlun which states: "It is from his travels, diverse experiences, and in-depth studies, that Max draws on and presents time tested, esoteric root practices, through his KUNLUN NEI GUNG™ System." I am pretty sure his old Kunlun book and old websites did not mention 'Kunlun' as being some synthesis by Max of various practices and teachers, but I no longer have my copy of Max's old Kunlun book from quite a few years ago (maybe 7 or 8 years ago I think). What does Max say about the origins of 'Kunlun' in his new Kunlun book? Does he mention learning practices from Jenny Lamb?

Hi Leon Frost. From my own perspective, the obvious problem with Max Christensen's stuff is there does not seem to be any clear info about who his teachers were, and what specific practices he learned from any specific teacher (there are other 'teachers' like this here in the West as well). That is a real problem. For example, some people who posted here before stated that a teacher named Jenny Lamb located in the US stated that she actually taught Max Christensen practices that he incorporated into his 'kunlun' stuff. Some people seem to just say whatever, but it should be a concern if a teacher can't clearly explain who all their teachers are, and what specific practices they learned from each individual teacher. It should be raising red flags if they can't or won't do that. Some people seem to take the attitude that it doesn't matter, as long as the teacher seems to know something, but in such a situation you really just don't know what you are learning and what all has just been made up, and where everything is coming from. Also, if indications are that a 'teacher' is not being fully honest and forthcoming about what they are teaching and what their real background is, then who knows what all else they are not being honest about? Does Max Christensen provide specific details in his new book where and when he is supposed to have learned his practices, and from which specific teachers? Last time I looked on his website there was no details at all about this. Just my own view.

The main problem I see with this approach is finding some agreement on who are authentic and good teachers. There will always likely be a lot of difference of opinion about that here. Some teachers people have been promoting here in discussions actually seem to have a very sketchy background, and seem to be misrepresenting their real history and what they teach. Even such teacher's long term students sometimes do not know their teacher's real background. Also, there is the obvious issue that some teachers are here primarily to promote their workshops and DVDs, and they don't actually openly and freely share details about their practices here. You have to buy their DVD's and books and go to their workshops to learn details about their actual practices. Sure, teaching only in workshops is reasonable in many cases, as many practices really do need to be learned in person, but then such a teacher hanging around here to just continually promote them self and their DVDs and workshops would seem to go against the spirit of this place. Even worse when their students keep dutifully bumping up their teacher's threads which are promoting their DVDs and workshops here, using the discussion forums as ongoing free advertising and promotion for a teacher. If a rule is enforced that posts made for the sole purpose of announcing a workshop or training course or for promoting products are kept to forum or pinned thread for that purpose, it will help keep the discussion forums free of such clutter. Sure people should be able to point out DVDs or books or workshops in the course of a discussion where it is relevant, but if someone is obviously doing this repeatedly for the main purpose of promoting a specific teacher or their business, then that should be ruled out of line. If teachers want to come and openly share details about practices and practice methods, and details about why things are practiced in that way and what the benefits are for practicing in a certain way, etc., then that should be helpful; but, if a teacher will not openly discuss such things here and instead keep hyping them self and their products and workshops, that is an undesirable situation IMO. A special forum created for teachers to announce them self and give details about what they teach, and to openly answer questions about what they teach, and what their specific background is and who their teachers were, etc., (rather than just hyping their workshops and DVDs and books) could be potentially useful I think, assuming you could get teachers who would be interested in doing so. People could then go to that forum and read what these teachers are teaching and to ask questions and get more details about specific practices, and what their purposes are, and that sort of thing. I have doubts about getting many teachers interested, but you never know. Most teachers are either interested in promoting them self and their business, or the ones who are truly interested in sharing knowledge are probably aware that internet forums are more about lots of people talking a lot of silliness, and few actually seriously practicing. Genuine teachers are usually more interested in students who are focused on talking less, and practicing more. Edit: I see that the 'Upcoming Events' is still there as a pinned thread in the General Discussion forum...

Aeran, did you get a satisfactory answer to your question? My view is the body has its own natural state of balance, and we can throw that balance off by doing certain practices that try to promote or make qi flow in a specific way within us, or through other potentially harmful circumstances or behaviors. This can potentially lead to issues as you describe. Therefore my approach in my own practice (and also in doing my experimental remote 'healing' sessions) is not to try to correct specific problems or to try to make qi flow in any specific way or anywhere specific within us, but to do practices which boost the body's energy level and subsequently promote inate healing. By not interfering with our internal qi, and instead doing practices which allow our self to increase our essence and vitality, our own inate systems should start to take care of the rest over time. Our body can/will return to health if we give it the right circumstances. This may mean having to remove potentially harmful practices or conditions. You may want to just stop your qigong practices for a month or so and see if things have improved after that. Wuji or taiji zhan zhuang stances should be fine I would think, after stopping practice for a month or so, but see below as well. Also, you should not be doing any sort of unusual breathing or using any specific concentration when doing wuji or taiji zhan zhuang stances, as I learned them anyway. There is also potential for problems arising without proper guidance when doing special breathing or concentration, and such things are not needed anyway in zhan zhuang practice in my own experience. Something to keep in mind if a male is quite seriously practicing qi cultivation (qigong) they should be careful about sex. It depends on the exact qigong practices, but some practices which cultivate the internal qi may require stopping qigong practice at least 2 to 3 days or more before having sex, and not starting practice again for 2 or 3 days at least after having sex. Mixing certain types of qigong practice and sex can have potentially undesirable results. For serious internal cultivation, males have to go very easy on sex. Some types of qigong may not have such requirements. By the way, the wuji zhan zhuang stance is a little different than the one you showed. The one you showed is often called the 'tai ji' stance or 'embracing tree' stance and possibly other names as well. In the wuji stance, the hands are left to hang down by the sides in one position or another. You don't need to bend the knees too much for zhan zhuang to be effective, but bending the knees too much where it is causing straining is undesirable in my experience. You can work yourself very slowly over time to bending the knees further as your legs get stronger, as long as you are avoiding straining. If after stopping for a month or so, if zhan zhuang or sitting meditation or other qigong practices are still causing issues, then consider stopping such pratices for the time being and instead consider trying the following type of practice, which is bagua circle walking qigong (neigong). "Ba Gua Circle Walking Nei Gong: The Meridian Opening Palms of Ba Gua Zhang" http://www.amazon.com/Gua-Circle-Walking-Nei-Gong/dp/1432796895/ref=la_B001KH8IHE_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1397153166&sr=1-2 This type of practice should be kept very relaxed and natural, with no special concentration or breathing. If practiced in that way it should start to correct any blockages or imbalances over time. You are setting up the right conditions for the body systems to start correcting themself.

Hi Charles. One thing to keep in mind is that not all qigong is the same, at least in my experience anyway. Not all qigong masters do the electric-like qi emission thing. From what I have seen some other qigong masters can emit a strong qi 'field' from their hands at a distance which you can physically feel in your body, but they may not be able to do the electric-like qi thing. There really does appear to be different forms of qi, and different practices and ways of using these different forms of qi. Regarding reproducing the sweet water effect using technology, as I think someone already mentioned, that might be pretty hard to accomplish without first having some pretty clear idea of what qigong masters like Jiang Feng are actually doing when they 'emit qi' to the water. Are they creating some sort of high energy field, or are they radiating high energy particles or electromagnetic energy, or some combination of such things, or are they doing something else entirely? I think you would probably need to get a qigong master who can do things like making water turn sweet into a sophisticated physics lab environment and take all sorts of measurements to try to figure out what is actually going on. In your view, what do you think might be going on in the case of making water turn sweet through qi emission, and what are you basing your view on?

I have heard where some yogis said they believe that long hair is helpful for absorbing qi or cosmic energy or whatever and similar, but I have not experienced this myself. I have also come across where some qigong meditation practitioners have commented that they have felt their qi move right out to the ends of their hair during their practice, but I have not experienced this. The stuff about hair absorbing qi or some form of energy may relate to certain types of practices. Many yogis and taoists work with prana/qi and 'energies' in general, so having long hair might have some special benefit in certain types of practices along these lines, while in Chan Buddhism or other such practices their approach may be quite different, so long hair may not be so important. For the average person who is not involved in intense cultivation, I am not sure if it would make much difference one way or the other, but you never know. For native americans, I have heard long hair described as being like the grass on the Earth, so it may be that they also had beliefs about long hair being important as a connection to the Earth or to nature, or something along those lines, but I don't know for certain about that as well.

What is neigong? I see a fair bit of apparent misunderstanding about this term, so I thought I would just try to clarify the meanings and usage of this term based on my own personal understanding and experience. I know my post here won't likely really make any difference, and many people will continue to misunderstand and argue over such terms and concepts, but what the heck. Maybe someone will take away something useful from this. Neigong can be both a generic term meaning general internal cultivation practices, or it can mean internal skill(s) developed from internal cultivation, and it is also used to sometimes indicate very specialized practices and skills of internal cultivation. When it comes to practices such as qigong, neigong, and Chinese martials arts, (and probably Chinese medicine and other traditional related systems/practices as well), my experience has been that different teachers of different systems can use and define different terms quite differently. This is a key point that I think is often misunderstood by many Westerners or by anyone in general in modern times. Other than the very generic meaning of terms like qigong and neigong, the way these and many various related terms and concepts are used in different traditional systems and by different teachers can vary a lot in my experience. What I have just said in this paragraph can't be emphasized enough, IMO. If someone is insisting that qigong or neigong means only some very narrow set of practices or some very specific way of doing something, etc., then it is a pretty good indication that they have no real understanding about the actual broad range of practices and viewpoints and systems which make use of such terms and concepts. Terms and concepts including everything from jing, qi, shen, qigong, neigong, meridians, channels, energy centers, soul, spirit, five elements, internal, external, etc., etc., can be viewed and used quite differently from system to system and teacher to teacher. These terms simply do not seem to have the kind of more rigid and strict definitions which many terms and concepts can have in modern times. Ask five different teachers from five different traditional systems what is qigong and neigong, and what is qi, and what is internal and what is external, etc., and you may very well get quite a wide variation in answers. If you think that this indicates that one teacher is right, and all the others are wrong, then you are misunderstanding the traditional way that such concepts are viewed and used IMO. Rather than viewing things in such a rigid and limiting way, I think it is more meaningful to understand that such terms are often just not used in any sort of fixed and rigid way, and each teacher will use them in a way that makes sense to them, and which suits their own purposes and their own point of view. What is important is the underlying experience, and what are the benefits that any particular system can really give. Getting hung up on terms and concepts seems to be primarily due to trying to impose modern ways of looking at and approaching things on more ancient or traditional ways of looking at and approaching things. The two approaches do not necessarily mesh. If you think about all these terms and concepts related to neigong/internal cultivation in a much more plastic and pliable and loose fashion, then you have a better chance of starting to delve into the 'ancient' way which things were viewed. What is important is the underlying experience and the specific type of results which a certain system focuses on developing, and think of the terms and concepts which are used to 'explain' such things more just as guide lines that help give some idea of what the system is about. The terms and concepts and viewpoints give some sense of what a practice is about and how things are 'explained' at a surface level , but the actual practice itself is based on developing the internal experience and skills which may not actually be able to be described well in words and concepts at all. From what I have seen there are a lot of widely varying practices that may fall under the term 'neigong', everything from health exercises and stretching, foundational practices which build a good foundation for other practices, to very specific internal cultivation practices and very specific skills development, to meditation practices focused on self cultivation. Some practices are good for health and longevity, some practices develop very special and even extraordinary skills, and some practices are primarily for self cultivation. All might use the term 'neigong'. Some practices may be in general good for anyone, some practices may be potentially dangerous, or even harmful in the long run, and some practices are exclusive to a particular teacher or system and can only be learned through accomplished teachers in that particular system directly from teacher to student. Because some of these sorts of terms can have a certain mystique about them, certain teachers these days may adopt such terms as a way of marketing what they are selling as something very special and exceptional or 'high level', but if you travel around and meet teachers from various systems you will likely see that there are a wide variety of different practices which may develop quite different types of skills or which may have quite different purposes, and trying to compare them is like trying to compare apples and oranges and potatoes. Which is better, and which is 'higher level'? How do you measure higher level? With a measuring tape or ruler? There are many different systems which can have various purposes, and which can take widely differing approaches. Some are focused on health, some on martial arts skill, some are focused on healing and therapy, and some are focused on self cultivation, and some are multi purpose. I will say again that some practices out there can be potentially dangerous or harmful, and not all teachers out there are really qualified or teaching a 'good' system, so use caution and some good sense when seeking out teachers and practices.

Hi Ya Mu. I understand what you are saying, but I have to say from my own experience various traditional practices have this aspect of refining the qi (or energy bodies, if you look at it this way), once a person really gets into the system and begins to see the whole picture. I don't think it is exclusive to just one system or tradition. Cultivating higher level qi or associated states is really not so exclusive at all in regards to traditional systems in my own view. Many people these days may not ever progress in any practice or system much beyond the more basic levels of improving health, but this doesn't necessarily mean that higher attainment is not possible in those systems. If it is an authentic tradition, there are likely accomplished teachers in the tradition who passed that system on. I think finding a good teacher of an authentic system may not be so easy these days however. My advice to people would be to check out various teachers in person that are accessible to you, and get some first hand experience with what they teach and do, and see what the teacher is really like, and then after checking out various things, decide on something that seems suitable. Don't worry about systems which are not accessible for whatever reason, and instead check out the teachers which are available to you. Find something suitable and then practice that diligently.

For the most part any strange noises in a house like knocking and creaking and that sort of thing are 99.9% likely to be from ordinary causes. Depending on where you live, things usually cool off a fair bit at night, which can make things in the house contract, and then in the morning as things start to warm up, things in the house can start to expand again. There can be lots of other natural causes of unusual noises as well of course. Then there is that other remaining 0.1% likelihood of something more unusual going on... Well, probably even a much, much smaller chance than that in actuality...

_

Sunchild, the knocking could be caused by some ordinary cause that is not really obvious. Do your parents believe in the possibility of poltergeists? Out of curiousity, have you been experimenting with or been associated with anything related to spirits or magick? If you start to see this sort of activity, then you know you probably have a poltergeist problem :

Well, that's not what I have been saying. What you are describing is one potential benefit of internal cultivation. I think I have presented my point of view reasonably clearly enough, so I will leave it at that.

Hi ChiDragon. I think we have to be careful to not mix up how a term is actually used in different contexts, and how we might like to personally view and use a term. As an example, for the term 'internal', I think you said elsewhere that you think neigong means building up the strength in the muscles, whereas I have known teachers of internal martial arts who would say that using qi cultivation with the main purpose of strengthening and protecting the muscles is an 'external' practice. The 'internal' in relation to neigong as used in the martial arts and other areas I think more typically is used in the sense of internal cultivation in regards to internal qi cultivation and related, rather than specifically to muscles, or connective tissues, or internal organs, or bones. Developing and utilizing the internal qi can cause changes to the body and can be utilized to protect and strengthen the body, and likewise certain exercises for the body can help to open meridians and channels and help in the cultivation of qi, but the primary focus in 'neigong' seems to typically be on various ways of cultivating and utilizing the internal qi and mind/spirit. However, as I mentioned, different teachers and systems really do seem to have varying views on such things, which was my point. In actual use, the term neigong does not seem to have been used in just one limited sense. If a person wanted a general definition of neigong, then internal cultivation practices might work for the most part, but the actual practices and views regarding neigong seems to include a lot of different things. It can include many different approaches and practices which usually involves developing and utilizing the internal qi and mind/spirit in certain ways.

Hi ChiDragon. in response I can only repeat what I said above, that from my own experience anyway, 'internal strength method' would only be one of various ways and contexts in which the term neigong is used. In the context of martial arts, neigong is often used in that sense, but in a more general sense the term neigong seems to apply to all sorts of internal cultivation practices and the skills they develop. The common thread being 'internal', but from what I have seen even the concept of 'internal' can be viewed somewhat differently in different systems.

Thus-gone, I think I understand what you mean. No, when you are practicing you should not cause harm to yourself if you have a sudden odd thought of say "shooting your qi up to your brain'. If you are standing in the wuji stance, keep it as natural and relaxed as you can. Just like, say, as you would stand if you are relaxing and standing outside looking at the trees and birds and nature or whatever. When you are relaxed and natural your mind should start to become more relaxed and balanced and calm. However, all that aside, it is not that easy to develop qigong skill to a degree that you can so easily shoot a blast of qi to your brain just because such a thought happened to pass through your mind, and it really doesn't work that way anyway. To really move qi in a significant way involves developing a special type of mind 'intention' which generally takes a long time to develop to a degree you are talking about, and just some passing random silly thought realistically is not going to cause any issues. The connection between mind intention and qi simply does not work the way you are thinking. Just practice relaxed and natural and you should be fine. Where people put themselves at risk of causing them self some real issues with qigong, is where people are trying to intentionally control 'qi flow', and when people start doing very intentional or unnatural breathing methods and that sort of thing without really knowing what they are doing. It is always best to learn under the guidance of an experienced teacher if you can, even if it means just attending the occasional workshop with a teacher.

In a interview done with Chunyi Lin in June 2007, he stated that he was 49. Based on that, that would make him around 55 or 56 now. That would indicate he was born around 1958 or 1959. Chunyi Lin also stated in that interview that he first started learning qigong in 1988 from a qigong master who was from Shaolin, when he brought his wife to the master for treatment for lumps in her breasts. Here's a picture that somebody posted of Chunyi Lin from 2013, and he is listed as being 55 years old. Chunyi Lin pretty much looks his age of 55 years old in this picture. .

Lao Zi has a smile

Hello ChiDragon. It appears to me that confusion and misunderstanding are universal. At least I have not encountered any dividing line between east and west. If we are relaxed and natural, then the breathing will naturally become soft, natural and deep. What is natural may change of its own accord and at its own time. We only need to relax and keep as natural as we can manage. My teacher called it da zuo, but that is just a name. The simple principles also seem universal.

Oneness can mean to collect all of one's similar thoughts and questions into one single thread, rather than to express them all in many different threads. This is only one possible meaning of oneness however.

TheExaltedRonin wrote: "According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought All the time?" In my view, the only way to know for certain would be to ask them. All I can say about this with any degree of certainty is that with each passing day I understand the tao te ching less and less.

I think the concept of jing, qi, shen is fairly widespread in many traditional Chinese cultivation and healing art systems, including martial arts, Chinese medicine, and meditation and related cultivation practices. Such concepts may have lost some or much of their original importance in more modern derived practices from China however. My understanding is that jing, qi, shen are all interrelated and interdependent, so from that point of view there is really no higher and lower levels, but I do understand the perspective of viewing things that way. Maybe we can say that a good teacher or healer or good practice is able to work with all three. I think martial arts such as tai chi and bagua do have this full jing, qi, shen cultivation aspect built in when taught in a traditional way, and other martial arts such as xing yi and many other martial arts may have this aspect as well included in the training system, if you can find a good traditional teacher that is. I agree with Gerard that finding a really good teacher (or healer) is not that easy, but in my experience it can make a big difference. I think however you can learn a good foundation of healing qigong practices and arts from less experienced teachers, as long as those less experienced teachers are under the guidance of a good experienced teacher them self, but I think having direct access to a really good teacher can really help. Regarding Chinese healing and cultivation practices, after long trial and error over the years I personally think that a system that includes practices that work with all of jing, qi, shen are the best overall approach. As I mentioned, I think that practices such as bagua and tai chi taught in a traditional way by a good teacher should have this all built in, but in general I think if you have practices that include exercise for the overall body (doesn't have to be really strenuous and not necessarily at all overly muscle building), full body stretching practices (again doesn't have to be too strenuous) and qi cultivation and/or meditation practices gives a pretty well rounded approach. As I mentioned, I think practices like traditional tai chi and bagua systems have all this pretty much built in, but I think this can be done with separate practices as well to cover the above general aspects. Most traditional systems seem to include all of the above in one form or another. For healing ailments, I have found that supplementing the above type practices with some self acupressure can help as well. Practices such as tai chi and bagua and other practices which have lots of turning and full body movement and stretching tend to work on the acupressure points and meridians as well by nature of the movements, but for stubborn issues I have found that supplementing with self acupressure can help to break up any stubborn blockages and stagnant qi as well. So in my personal view, thinking in terms of a full system which addresses all of jing, qi, shen is probably a good well rounded way to go. This of course includes eating healthy and using moderation in all aspects of daily life as well, which is also very important. This may be why that just going to a herb doctor alone or acupuncturist alone or whatever may sometimes not be so effective. So, I agree a good cultivation or healing system will be holistic in approach I guess you could say, and yes, this is all just my own view on the matter. P.S. Gerard, by coincidence or maybe synchronicity, I recently started learning about bigu and how it relates to cultivation. The method you provided a reference to seems quite extreme however. A less extreme approach might be better.

Hello TheExaltedRonin. There is (not very likely) any one correct translation or interpretation of the tao te ching. Each person will try to interpret it based on their own background, beliefs, ideas, experience, etc. Ask 100 people what is written in the tao te ching and you could very well get 100 different answers. I could tell you what I think the answer to your question may be based on how I interpret what is written in the tao te ching at this current time, but it would just be one of many different points of view. I will say that it is probably better to read a number of translations of the tao te ching to get an overview of the way various people interpret what is written there. Some translations are available for free on the internet. If you looked at ch. 10, and ch. 16 for a start, it might give you some better sense of what you are asking.

I would say there is no need to trust anything anyone says regarding this sort of thing unless you satisfy yourself that it is valid through direct experience. Even then you still don't need to trust everything they say. Some things people say may be valid, some things may be partially valid, and other things they say may not be valid at all. Use what proves useful and discard that which does not.