NotVoid

Hi asunthatneversets. Ok on that. Thanks for the information about this.

Sure, I am making no assumptions about what I am seeing...

(heh, usually the quote feature does not work for me in IE 11, but sometimes it does work. Strange that the quote feature works intermittently in IE 11. ) Nungali, what you are describing sounds like floaters, which move the way you describe, and which are usually much bigger than what I am referring to (very, very tiny little circles).

Hi asunthatneversets. I will keep a look out for info on this thig le, to see if it sounds similar to what I am seeing. I don't recall hearing about thig le before however, so I am not at all familiar with this. Edit: Found this, but this sounds different than the 'meteor showers' of tiny little glowing circles which I am seeing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lh%C3%BCndrub_T%C3%B6gal (excerpt from: Pettit, John Whitney (1999). Mipham's Beacon of Certainty: Illuminating the View of Dzogchen, the Great Perfection. Boston: Wisdom Publications. ISBN 0-86171-157-2, p.80) "In the four visions of all-surpassing realization gnosis manifests spontaneously as visions of spheres of light containing mantric syllables and images of buddhas, "vajra chains" (rdo rje lug gu rgyud), and buddha paradises (zhing khams). After these visions reach the limit of diversity and completeness, all appearances recede in the ground of reality (dharmatã, chos nyid), and the perfection of the three buddha bodies is attained [trikaya]."

Hi Soaring crane. OK, on that. What I am seeing however is like a constant 'meteor shower', except the little tiny circles are not moving in straight lines like meteors, they are sguiggling around all over the place, and there is a whole lot of them. Coincidentally, after I finished some meditation earlier today, I got up and as I was walking away I saw 'stars' for about 15 or 20 seconds. The stars I saw are somewhat similar, but they were bigger moving points of light that I saw around my whole upper body, not just right in front my eyes, and the 'stars' are much brighter, but did move around randomly somewhat like the little circles I am seeing. Perhaps the little glowing circles are just some odd effect of the eyes, but I was just curious if other people have noticed this, and if they see it the same way.

Hi Nungali. What I am seeing is definitely not floaters, as I have explained. What I am seeing does not change its movement pattern or direction as I move my eyes around like floaters do. The little circles move the same way whether my eyes are stationary or moving. What I see are very tiny little moving circles which are right across my field of vision and each little tiny circle moves in its own path and direction and speed. It could very well be just some effect of how the eyes work, but I really don't know what it is. When I focus on seeing these little tiny circles, they appear to glow white, and appear to be glowing whiter around their outside edges. It is not easy to view them clearly however as each individual little circle is very fleeting and only lasts for a second or two before they fade out. I see a constant stream of these little tiny circles. They do not appear to be following clear paths like as if they were following a blood vessel or something. Very squiggly paths going in all sorts of directions. Do the little circles you see sound similar to what I am describing here?

What is termed qigong includes all sorts of different practices and methods, some of which just use natural breathing. In the practices where the breathing is not focused on and is kept natural, what is termed natural may 'naturally' change by itself over time without any special intention or intervention by the practitioner.

Hi GreytoWhite. Thanks for the reply. I did already point out however that this is quite different than floaters, which are usually quite a lot larger and dark in color and shadowy in appearance, and of all sorts of shapes. Here I am taking about little tiny perfect circles or spheres which are usually moving quite quicky (their movement is not dependent on whether the eye is in motion or stationary) and which glow with white light when you observe them for a few seconds. An individual sphere will appear and then move in an arc-like (the motion can look like squiggles ) motion in my visual field, and then fade out. They do not appear like floaters at all, as floaters move around slowly as you move your eye, but do not fade out and go away. This is definitely different than floaters.

I think most people these days are familiar with the concept of world views and how this can affect people's perception and willingness to look at things in new ways. The mind wants to hold and consider all sorts of ideas and concepts, but mainly only in a way in which these ideas and concepts fit in with a person's core belief structure (world view). Going along with this, we also have a tendency to ignore, dismiss, or even attack ideas and concepts or the people associated with those ideas and concepts which do not fit in well with our world view. This means that we would rather (seemingly more subconsciously than consciously) hold to concepts and ideas which really do not make a whole lot of sense, or which really do not have any real sound basis, than consider other ideas and concepts which tend to conflict with our world view. This really does apply to anyone in this world whether they are scientists, or theologists, or atheists, or skeptics, or mystics, or taoists, or buddhists, or whatever. IMO, we can only have a chance of moving towards a wider and deeper understanding of things if we are willing to look into our beliefs and understand how they may be limiting us and shaping our perception of the world around us. In my view (ha ha) it doesn't make any difference at all whether a person is a scientist or a mystic or whatever, if they are not willing to look into and work with the limiting structure and nature of their belief system. When we are talking about a concept of 'qi', we are talking about something which appears to operate at a level which interacts with the very core structures of life and matter. I would say that a better understanding of something like qi will only start to come when people (including anyone, scientist or mystic or doctor or anyone) are better able to work with their limiting views and beliefs and have a real willingness to consider phenomena of this sort more as they really are than how we would like to see them and arrange them into our world views. I think the world is slowly moving more and more in this direction, but this sort of process seems to need a lot of time, but I think in the last few hundred years or so we have been moving more and more in this direction and even much more so in the last 100 years or so. As has been noted by others, breakthroughs in areas like quantum physics and related seem to be starting to bridge the gap more and more between scientific and mystical approaches and views, and who knows where our understanding will be in another 50 or 100 years? In my view there is at least a real potential there.

Harmonious Emptiness, here is a web page with links to a number of scientifc studies or related in regards to qigong and qi research. Qigong Institute - Scientific Papers http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php I read somewhere that the video showing the qigong therapists dissolving the tumor was at a zhineng qigong hospital in China. Not sure that video is showing the exact same case I read about however, but for the case I read about it was a zhineng qigong hospital and they mentioned that this was possible because they were using groups of qigong therapists there, and that they also felt that if people practice qigong in groups at a specific location that over time this builds up the qi of that location, which can be tapped into by the group, so the qi is stronger than what can be achieved by an individual practicing alone. I don't know if that is true at all, but it was something I had read somewhere... (found this note on another version of the video: "Zhineng Qigong teachers at the Huaxia Zhineng Qigong Healing Center used their mind power and made the tumor disappear in less than a minute.")

The topic of this thread is in regards to 'proof' of qi. There are two kinds of 'proof' in regards to qi. A person can 'prove' or at least experience qi for them self through direct experience, and then there is scientific proof of qi. I think the intention of this thread was in regards to scientific proof of qi and whether it can be detected or measured using scientific measurement instruments, so that is the angle I have been focusing on. When investigating some as yet not understood phenomenon, if a person wants to really have a chance of understanding that phenomenon they have to put aside their preconceptions and biases and study that phenomenon as it is, not as they would like it to be. Now in the real world it is not too likely for people to completely remove all their biases and preconceptions, but I think in regards to subjects like this it is important to keep in mind how our biases can affect our perception and willingness to look at things as they are, rather than how we would like them to be. When a person experiences the effects of qi in their body, they experience this mainly as sensations and perhaps visually or even aurally as well. It can also involve involuntary movement of parts of the body as well. If a person were just going on this, then it would be really hard to say exactly what qi is, but a person can observe that something very unusual is going on, and that it can dramatically improve or cure health problems and mental state and can increase a person's strength and stamina and energy. Seen just from this point of view, there is no way to say for certain that what is going on is not just some physiological/mental processes, although certainly there is a strong 'energetic feel' to all of this, at least. Still you can't really say for certain what is going on from the point of view of science just based on the sensations and perceptions of the person experiencing this. However, a person who can emit qi at a distance without physical touch and affect another person (or object) quite noticeably, such as producing very strong physical sensations and effects in a recipient, or healing a long standing and stubborn illness fairly quickly which the recipient has and that sort of thing, then we would appear to have something that can potentially at least be more easily studied using the scientific method. Preliminary scientific studies I have seen show that sometimes at least unusual external physical phenomena can be observed and measured when this type of qi projection is occurring, so it would appear that in such cases this is not just suggestion or hypnosis or that sort of thing occurring. This is why I was mainly focusing in on this type of phenomenon in this discussion. For someone to say, 'well, such things do not fit in with my preconceptions of what is possible or the way I think it should be, so I will just dismiss this out of hand', is not part of the scientific method. The scientific method is a specific methodology to study things so we can get a better understanding of what is actually going on (mainly from a physical science point of view). Preconceptions should be checked at the door. Some scientific studies of this sort of phenomena of external qi projection, mainly from China but there are probably some similar Western based studies as well, show that very unusual and measurable external physical effects can sometimes be detected when a qigong master is projecting qi externally. From the perspective of science, this is quite preliminary as there is a whole long drawn out peer review process for vetting studies, but it does look at least somewhat promising that this type of external qi projection phenomenon is something that can be studied using the scientific method. The main problem is finding people with sufficient abilities at externalizing qi who would be willing to devote their time to undergoing a long period of testing and studies, and also finding scientists qualified and open minded and motivated enough to conduct the scientific studies, and who have the funding to do so as well. The studies being done at the Rhine Research Center appear to be a pretty good start into this type of scientific study already, and are showing some promising results, and for all I know there may be other similar such studies occurring at other labs in the West as well. Not sure how much these sort of scientific studies have continued in China since the Chinese government crackdown on qigong groups in the early nineties however. So, I think to summarize, some preliminary scientific study of external qi projection has already been done with some promising results, but I think a lot more in depth scientific study will be required before anyone can start to talk about qi being proven or at all understood from the scientific point of view. That is my perspective on this anyway.

I am personally not suggesting that what is called qi is something which is necessarily 'outside of known laws of physics', just that any scientific studies I personally have looked at (which are not a whole lot, and many may not be up to rigorous scientific standards, or are more informal studies) ) do not seem to be able to account for what is observed when some accomplished qigong masters do what they do. Some qigong masters can 'project qi' at a distance of several feet or more, and this 'projected qi' can be easily be felt by the recipient, and can have a strong effect on the recipient as well. For example, the recipient may feel a strong 'field' like effect hitting a part or all of their body, or feel strong tingling, or strong heat, or pressure, etc., and even feel very nauseous or feel euphoric and that sort of thing. However it seems that when this projection of qi is measured using scientific measurement instruments, while some unusual physical effects can apparently sometimes be measured, IMO it does not seem to be able to account for the strong effects this projected qi can have on a recipient. A lot more study will have to be done no doubt, and maybe understanding what qi is may not come until advances in areas such as quantum physics or other areas of science can offer better explanations for the phenomena. For people who have experienced qi personally through their own practice, or such as I have described above, it is not really a matter of belief at all, but having the direct experience of something which seems to be quite inexplicable, and not having any way to explain it based on current understanding. For someone who has not experienced such things, it is understandable that they might be inclined to view such things as ordinary physiological functions and mechanics and that sort of thing, but in that case their view is based on assumption and belief rather than real understanding of the full range of the phenomena. Certainly projection of qi at a distance can't be explained at all as ordinary physiological functioning or mechanics. When qigong was still a big craze in China a number of years ago before the crack down on qigong groups in China, various modern qigong masters and scientists etc. began to put forth the idea of qi as something that is not just energetic in nature, but something which also contains or transmits information or intelligence, or intelligent structure. Thus based on this view, qi is not just some basic form of energy, but something more than this.

We know the Incas and other peoples built villages and temples and that sort of thing on high mountain peaks and on steep slopes. Taoists and Buddhists also built a number of their temples on high mountain peaks and ridges, and even on very steep cliff sides high up in the mountains, or sometimes right into a cave. Was this just because it afforded good protection and isolation from dangerous animals, or from bandits and marauding armies, and provided good isolation from the general population? Or was there another reason? Is the qi much better on high mountain peaks and ridges and on cliff sides, or what else could it be? Ley lines? Geomancy reasons? Cleaner (but thinner) air? Why go to all that trouble to build temples in such places? Here's a few examples, but I am sure there are lots of other examples. Hanging Temple on Hengshan Mountain is thought to be from about 500 AD, and the original wooden pillars that are holding it up on the cliff still have not faltered, or so I have read. Mianshan Mountain:

If you are going to be practicing without a teacher, then I think this type of qigong is reasonably safe to practice on your own if you practice in the way this guy shows it, and don't try to change the practice from the way he shows it. In my experience you can start getting beneficial results fairly quickly from this type of qigong practice. Here are some videos demonstrating the practice. This guy also has some books on this type of practice as well. "Stand Still Be Fit" - zhan zhuang qigong practice - by Lam Kam Chuen http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH_ecCMHqqpBazYiUv3Sg8Q This is his book on this same sort of zhan zhuang qigong practice as shown in the videos: "The Way of Energy: Mastering the Chinese Art of Internal Strength with Chi Kung Exercise" - by Lam Kam Chuen http://www.amazon.com/Way-Energy-Mastering-Internal-Strength/dp/0671736450/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393345547&sr=1-1 I haven't read his book, but his zhan zhuang qigong practice shown in the videos is a good presentation in my opinion. The book will likely explain more details for the beginner to get a better understanding of the standing practice.

If a person has ever experienced what a very accomplished qigong master can do, they will understand that what qi is really doesn't appear to be explainable in terms of electricity, magnetism, EM (electromagnetic) fields or EM radiation, or photon emission, or energetic particle emission, etc. alone. This is not to say that an accomplished qigong master can't produce measurable effects of this sort by manipulating and/or emitting qi, and some scientific studies do seem to indicate that much higher degrees than normal of some of these physical forms of energy/matter can be measured when a qigong master is manipulating or externalizing their internal qi or other forms of qi. A person can have very strong internal qi, but if they are not trying to manipulate and externalize their qi in some way, none of the above physical forms of energy may be measured too much outside of the ordinary. However if such a person starts manipulating or externalizing their qi in some special way, it does appear that any or all of the above effects may be detected or measured to some degree above the ordinary on or around the person. So I think we can say that by manipulating or externalizing qi, various forms of physical energy/matter may be measured above the ordinary depending on what a given qigong master is able to do, so manipulation of qi in certain ways can produce such effects, but qi seems to be something which is not those physical forms of energy/matter itself. I say this because what can be done with qi can be many degrees of magnitude beyond the level of 'physical' energy that currently is being measured in scientific studies I personally have looked at. There appears to be something which is quite a bit beyond these measurable forms of energy in regards to 'qi'. It may be that once our measurement instruments are improved and/or as the experiments are improved that we may start to get a better understanding of what at least some forms of qi are, but it appears to be anyone's guess at this point. Personally I think people do much more harm than good when they throw terms around like bioelectricity and biomagnetism and biophotons and electromagnetic energy, etc. as explanations for qi without really understanding the real implications and meaning of the terms they are using. This is because scientists or technical people who understand the meaning of such terms realize that the effects that are claimed to be produced by qi such as through qi cultivation and qi emission for healing and that sort of thing can't be accounted for by these sorts of measurable physical phenomena, at least not at the current time anyway. IMO people would be much better off to say that qi is as yet still not understood than to throw terms like bioelectricity and biomagnetism and biophotons etc. around, as this only makes members of the scientific community roll their eyes when they hear these sorts of terms being thrown around in pseudoscientific fashion without any real understanding or basis. This is even more of a problem IMO when people who do have technical or scientific backgrounds throw these sort of terms around in regards to qi without any real sound basis for using those explanations, as sometimes occurs as well. I posted the following links in another thread recently, but anyway the Rhine Research Center has been conducting ongoing experiments with qigong/'bioenergy' healers, meditators and martial artists to see if they can measure significantly higher levels of ultraviolet photon emissions around such people when they are manipulating qi or doing whatever they do, and the Rhine Research Center has found that in some cases they do measure much higher than normal levels of ultraviolet photons under controlled lab conditions around such people. However the level of energy measured in these photons emissions is quite small compared to what can actually be accomplished with qi, so I think we should view such physical energy measurements as indicators that something outside the ordinary is occurring, but that the full extent of what is occurring does not seem to be accounted for with the physical energy measurements alone. Rhine Research Center - Bio-Energy Lab: http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/235-a-study-of-human-biofields-by-bill-joines-ph-d.html Here is a video showing the results of one such experiment at the Rhine Research Center on a qigong practitioner:

"Does Anyone Have Power?" No, people only have the illusion of power. "When things have become strong, they become old, which may be said to be contrary to the Tao. Whatever is contrary to the Tao soon ends."

I see two complete different motivations in regards to this. There are people who want to show special abilities because they are looking for fame or fortune, and there are people who are willing to show or use such things under certain circumstances because they want to help other people, or because they want to show other people what is possible. People who want to show or use such things to help others, or to demonstrate what is possible, will likely not make a big deal out of it, and may otherwise keep a pretty low profile about this sort of thing. If someone wants to help further the scientific understanding of such things, and they are not just out to try to make a name for them self or to try to make money from doing so, then I personally don't see a problem with it. On the other hand, even if a person has only good intentions but they show feats that are much beyond say just basic qi manipulation and projection, such as burning objects at a distance, or making things disappear or materialize out of thin air, or levitation, or whatever, then they may well draw a lot more attention to them self than they bargained for, and a lot of the attention may well be quite undesirable. It is possible to participate in scientific studies while still keeping a low profile if a person really wants to. All a person would have to do is request that those conducting the experiments don't ever reveal or publish their real name or their picture. It all depends on motivations, and using a bit of good sense as well.

Posted on the Rhine Research Center, Bioenergy Lab web page: "Press release from March 2012: Researchers at the Rhine Research Center have found that experienced meditators, healers and martial artists who claim to manipulate "chi" or healing energies are actually able to produce energy at a far higher rate than average people under strictly controlled laboratory conditions. "Chi" is a thus far unproven form of energy, which is believed by many in Eastern societies to be a kind of "life" or "health" force. Over the last 30 years, Rhine researchers have put these claims to the test, putting meditators, healers and martial artists who claim to control these energies into a light proof room designed to eliminate any interference from electrical equipment or any light sources. Using a multiphasic ultra-violet light detector which is designed to measure individual photons produced per half second, Rhine researchers were able to measure dramatic increases in the number of photons in the light-proof room when certain people were meditating, performing healings, or claiming to manipulate Chi. Since photons represent energy in physics, the increase in photons represents an increase in energy that ranges from 500% to 10,000% above the baseline measure of energy in the room. Funded by the Bial Foundation and private donations to the Rhine, these experiments are designed to assist researchers and health professionals to understand the types of energies produced by the human body and to discover the limits for controlling these energies. Meditators, energetic healers, and martial artists claim the ability to focus their attention and manipulate these energies, and these experiments appear to verify that some people are able to control these invisible energies of the body." You can sign up as a research participant at the Rhine Research Center here: http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/232-are-you-interested-in-participating-in-research-at-the-rhine-center.html P.S. Just wanted to mention one other thing. In the bio-photon emission measurement experiment which they do at Rhine, They stated they are measuring photon levels in the ultraviolet range, which of course is just a small range of frequencies within the full electromagnetic spectrum, but, from what I have read elsewhere, apparently the light range of frequencies is the range of frequencies in the EM frequency spectrum which contains the highest level of photon emission by the average person's body. They want to try to avoid the infrared frequency range because photon emission in that frequency range can be accounted for by ordinary body heat emission. Because EM energy emission in the ultraviolet spectrum range is only just a small portion of the EM frequency range, and because photon emission is just one form of measurable energy emission, it is quite possible if not probable that what we call qi actually encompasses much, much more than what they are capable of physically measuring in these types of experiments, but that they can measure a very notable increase in photon emission at all in the UV light range is still quite significant from the scientific perspective. In other words, it appears at least to be a good start.

If someone believes they can at least potentially produce unusual physical measurable effects of some sort or other using qi manipulation or external qi projection, and they are truly interested in having them self scientifically tested, then I think there are a few things that should be considered. From what I have seen, there is in this current time a fairly strong stigma associated with scientists getting involved in formal research related to the 'paranormal' and 'psi research' and that sort of thing. It is all very much still associated with gypsy fortune tellers and Madame X mediums and telephone call-in psychics and that sort of thing in many people's minds. This stigma I think is due to a large part to the efforts of fundamentalist skeptic movements such as the 'James Randi Educational Foundation' (JREF) and similar sorts of groups. The JREF people have invested huge amounts of time and effort in branding all people who claim to have such abilities as nothing more than frauds or delusional people, and branding the scientists who actually take the time to try investigate such things as nothing more than kooks or extremely gullible people. Because of this many scientists are not so interested at all in risking damaging their careers by undertaking any serious scientific research into anything of this nature. This I believe is the reality of the situation. People like the JREF have done some good in showing that there are a lot of frauds and deluded people associated with the whole paranormal scene, but by painting the whole field with the same brush of all being just the domain of frauds and kooks and very gullible people, I think they have to a large extent put the kibosh on serious scientific research into this area. However, if a person really looks into it, I think you can still find some serious scientists or organizations willing to at least take a look at this sort of thing. Given the above, I think a person would have to be very committed to wanting to see qi scientifically investigated and possess strong altruistic motivation however to undertake trying to get them self scientifically tested. You may well encounter a lot of closed doors, and may have to put a fair bit of effort into searching for scientists who might be interested, and be willing and able to put up with some possibly very rude or dismissive responses and attitudes sometimes without allowing it to get to you, etc. Also, a person may need to put a lot of time and effort into providing demonstrations with possibly not much coming of it, and also very possibly spending a fair bit of their own money on travel expenses and that sort of thing. Any scientists that are willing to do this sort of research may not be very well funded at all. Also, a person should understand that even if they spend a lot of their time being tested scientifically, that it is very likely that nothing much might ever come of it other than maybe a scientific paper or two getting published in some scientific journal. The stigma in the scientific community being what it is, such papers tend to get ignored, or they are just quickly dismissed as faulty research and that sort of thing with other scientists not really even giving fair consideration to the scientific data. This has been my impression at least about such things. However, there are some more likely places to start out with if a person would like to get tested without going through too much effort and struggle. There are some parapsychology departments or related in some universities that might well be interested in doing some scientific testing without too much fuss. There is also the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research program (Pear) at Princeton University which has carried out statistical analysis research on psi phenomena with ordinary subjects for years. They state they have completed this research project, but if they are not interested in doing new research on an individual who can potentially demonstrate unusual measurable phenomena at will, they might at least be able to provide contact info for people who may be interested in doing such research. http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ There is also the Rhine Research Center located in Durham, NC, which does scientific research into exactly this sort of thing, and I have posted a little info about them here before. One experiment they do is to test bioenergy/qi healers ability to emit higher levels than normal of photons from their body, using very sensitive and stable lab grade measuring equipment. The Rhine Research Center might be a good place to start as they seem to be quite willing to undertake such experiments (that is what they are there for), although again a person should understand that such experimentation may not ever have a whole lot of impact on the scientific community as a whole, but given enough time you just never know. Maybe a person just has to be prepared to start out with really small steps and be patient enough to see where it eventually leads to. http://www.rhine.org Rhine Bioenergy Lab: http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/235-a-study-of-human-biofields-by-bill-joines-ph-d.html Here is a video of one such experiment conducted on a qigong practitioner by the Rhine Research Center:

I did not see a book called Dao Yin by this author, but here is a book called "Ch'i Kung - The Art of Mastering the Unseen Life Force" by Lily Siou: http://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Lily-Siou-ebook/dp/B00HP5L6EW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393002862&sr=8-1&keywords=Ch%27i+Kung%3A+The+Art+of+Mastering+the+Unseen+Life+Force Lily Siou apparently also goes by the name of Chang Yi Hsiang, and if the same person, her current website can be found here: http://www.wmi.edu/About/FoundersMessage.aspx

Hi Kajenx. If you are able to relax more now than previously, then it would seem you are making some good progress.

Hi Kajenx. This is what I think. Sometimes in trying to get to a more natural state we make our self jump through all sorts of hoops thinking that we are doing something useful. Natural is just the state that remains when we stop doing all this striving and jumping through hoops. Mental wrangling with different concepts is jumping through hoops. 'Wu wei', 'dao', 'jhana', etc., etc., these are all just words and concepts. If we are really natural we really have no need for all these sorts of words and concepts. What we think about such things is just what we think about such things. All the concepts in the world do not change anything. Focusing attention on whether we are in this state or in that state or on what we think we may have 'achieved' and that sort of thing is just needlessly stressing the mind IMO. In order to relax the mind we have to not worry about such things. It is only more concepts anyway. Relax, be natural, and practice diligently. How does it matter what state or non-state or whatever you may think you are experiencing? We should try to relax the mind and relax the heart as we are able. Over time we will be able to relax more and more. Then we can start to be more and more natural without doing anything special at all, and progress will occur at its own natural pace. That is how I see it anyway.

Hi d4rr3n. Well, to be clear, I am not using logic or suggesting the use of some sort of logic, nor am I suggesting the use of any sort of conceptualization. I am suggesting the possibility that such things may be limited to a certain 'framework' however. I don't know at all that using logic we can conclude with any real certainty that 'tao' exists, or that 'it' is non-dualistic, or that 'it' contains all possibilities or qualities, or that 'it' is everything. When I consider texts like the tao te ching or other such writings, I personally do not see an urging towards using logic or holding to concepts. What I perceive is words and phrases arranged in such a way which suggest to me a pointing to 'something' (ha ha ) which err... 'does not fit that framework'. Just my personal take. I don't really know one way or the other. I don't think too much more can be said about this from my perspective, so I will leave it at that. I do think I understand where you are coming from, and the view you are describing seems to be an attempt to correlate an idea of 'tao' with the scientific view of the universe starting with a big bang and that the underlying essence of all matter is energy. I personally don't see any real problem with that, but I am not sure it will take you so much further than that. You have assigned a concept of 'energy' to a concept of 'tao', and that may work to some extent in describing the functioning of the world/universe around us, but following such an approach you still have the same problems of trying to move beyond that to trying to understand where did this energy come from, and where did this 'space' come from that we call the universe, and how does this all relate to the 'dimension' of time and to causality, etc., and are these concepts at all adequate or are they just leading us astray when we get to this point? I don't have any answers for that, but it does seem at least possible to me that the further you proceed with this approach the more it begins to unravel and the more it starts appearing nonsensical. Hmm, where I have I encountered that which seems nonsensical before...

Really nice Gerard. Thanks for the contributions! Perhaps pictures are the best way to try to get such concepts across.

Hi d4rr3n. I do understand what you mean, but I think it is just further splitting the concept of something into finer divisions; for example, energy is still something as opposed to nothing. My view is no matter how much you hash such things through using analysis and logic you can never get beyond limited dualistic notions such as existence and non-existence, and any attempt to try to move beyond such limitations using words and logic will come out sounding very nonsensical and will probably just invite ridicule. I believe this is probably why it was written in the tao te ching that 'if they do not laugh, it is not tao'. The suggestion would appear to be that if you try to conceptualize it and express it, it only comes out sounding like nonsense to the rational mind. When you read the tao te ching it is full of such nonsensical seeming statements such as soft overcoming hard, weak overcoming strong, low being better than high, tao being empty but giving rise to all things, etc. To the logical mind it appears nonsensical. So you either have to reject it as nonsense, or allow for the possibility that what is being alluded to is 'something' that is beyond the conceptualization and analysis capabilities of the ordinary mind. Taoists I have come across do not say ponder and analyze this hard and you will eventually understand it. They say practice this or that meditation or other practice and you may eventually gain some understanding.