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"proper mind and Qigong cultivation." In fact it would seem easier to teach Qigong form then to teach how to achieve "proper mind". When dealing with illness even severe illness how do you teach "proper mind" If someone has no background in either qigong cultivation or proper mind cultivation how do you simply tell them to get their mind in the right place? Craig

Agree with WYG. Psoriasis is a difficult condition, start with help from acupuncture and perhaps herbs, depending upon the practitioner. Qigong will be a good adjunct to this. Qigong in general should help all physical ailments. It requires good gong - fu though. Meaning good effort expended consistently over a long period of time. OK, now I will express my personal bias which I generally avoid doing. Master Zhongxian Wu who I consider my primary teacher of late, has a book and DVD showing his Shamanic Tiger Form. See link; http://masterwu.net/articles_tiger_dvd.html Because the tiger is related to the Western Direction - White - Lung Qi , Zheng qi I think this would be a good form to work with for skin issues. Skin is connected with Lung/Large Intestine organ system. Although Tiger form is not totally about Zheng Qi it is based on developing Zheng Qi as a foundation for overall qi development. This form is a great overall qigong form and has a nice balance of stength and energy development in it's performance. Good deep stance work is developed if you follow the Master's technique closely which will build leg strength and therefore a good foundation. Good structure and upright posture is another aspect of Zheng qi - upright qi - correct qi. OK, but any good qigong form practiced with good diligence consistently and regularly will help. No cure gaurantee's from me, but I will gaurantee diligent practice of almost any good qigong form will help your overall system. good luck building righteous Qi - Zheng Qi. Craig

Depending upon the view of the instructor it may not even be recommended to focus on ANYTHING. As a simple rule I would say focus on the form and natural breath, unless specific breathing is called for in the instruction. But there are SO MANY different styles of Qigong as to make it impossible to generalize. In my opinion there is no need to focus on "Chakras" and it is potentially detrimental to the goals of the practice. Investigate how to do the Qigong to your best whether it be via book, DVD or live teacher. Why add something foreign? Like NIKE says, just do it. Craig

A year and a half ago I was lucky enough to stumble across this film. I was at a music and dance camp in Mendocino, CA. A vendor of silk had set up the movie on his laptop, with the accompanying book set beside it. It was absolutely captivating. People would walk by and then just stand transfixed. I observed more thanone person with a tear in their eye. Truly inspiring film. Words cannot do it justice. This is the kind of thing I should have playing on my television all the time. Craig Thanks for bringing this to the communities attention Smile.

Healing Tao practices. Safe yes. Unsafe yes. IN my view the safe practices are the meditative practices, Inner smile meditation, six healing sounds, microcosmic orbit. Fusion of the 5 elements. IF you have MASTERED the above you might want to try sexual gong fu practice. M.Winn has modified rather significantly the way he teaches both Iron Shirt chikung and Sexual kungfu in order to make them more safe and perhaps more effective. We usually get sidetracked into discussing Sexual gong fu here, especially as it applies to men and their particular issues. I would like to go on a tangent and discuss Iron Shirt chikung as initially presented by M.Chia. This practice as initially presented involved "packing process breathing". I believe it has been widely understood by the Healing Tao community, especially those more closely linked with M.Winn (myself included) that the method as presented in the first Iron shirt book is risky at best. M.Winn goes so far as to indicate that he thinks packing process breathing is not particularly Taoist as it involves force and not relaxation. The most often attacked teachings of M.Chia are the sexual practices and the Iron shirt practices. I believe both of these to be sidetracks from the Internal Alchemy track. I believe that Iron shirt practice was not part of the Alchemy lineage which M.Chia received. I have discussed in detail with certain individuals who are involved and have been involved with lineage Iron Body training and they view M.Chia's material with alarm. So if the question is "are Mantak Chia's practices safe" I would have to say Yes and NO. I do believe that I received tremendous value in exploring my inner world through the use of the Inner Smile Meditation, Six Healing Sounds, Microcosmic Orbit and Fusion of the five elements meditations. I would urge a new student or even an intermediate student to MASTER the Inner Smile Meditation, Six Healing Sounds, Microcosmic Orbit and Fusion of the five elements meditations before even contemplating sexual gongfu or iron shirt gongfu. I would urge the student to find some form of physical exercise to do regularly in order to build a strong physical foundation, ideally Internal Martial Arts. One of the biggest problems with M.Chia and M.Winns students is a lack of good physical training. (Yes this is a gross generalization, and as such there are outstanding exceptions, but most of these exceptions have training in traditional martial arts or similar activities.) I never learned good structure studying with M.Chia in large part because seminar instruction doesn't allow for sufficient feedback and adjustment. There will always be conflicting opinions about what is appropriate for any stage of training. Some schools NEVER use Chi leading visualization. Some schools NEVER use sexual gongfu at all. Some schools maintain Healing Tao techniques are a "Fire" path while true Taoist practice are fully a "water" path. I am GRATEFUL to have studied with M.Chia and M.Winn to the extent that I have. I am grateful to continue to integrate Taoist practice into my life which has led me to other teachers. I don't think it is correct to say that studying Healing Tao practice WILL necessarily cause damage as Sean D. may seem to infer. The practices as I have outlined them were excellent for me and I believe laid a foundation which enables me to better judge what I am receiving from any instructor or system. Also, since I am now reading EVA WONG's Shambala guide to Taoism I must point out that she asserts that it is traditionally understood that the path of Alchemy IS inherently difficult and potentially dangerous. Maybe I can link this to my last post on another topic. Dangerous is perhaps a good thing. When you are rock climbing on a wall 1000 feet in the air you become extremely FOCUSED on what you are doing, taking the necessary moves one at a time using all your senses cohesively. Perhaps this is the proper attitude for cultivation as well?? Enough from me. Peace Craig

Pietro I cannot tell a lie. I stole that tree sitting picture from Michael Winn's website somewhere. Though I do have more pics of Huashan. Rock climbing to me has always been an exercise in ONE POINTEDNESS. I you are up on a wall with limited or no safety equipment you damn well better be paying attention to what is most important IN THE MOMENT. Even better than getting in the ring and having someone trying to hit you. Craig

Was there in 2004. BTW my avatar shows a Taoist sitting on a tree on Huashan with 3000 feet exposure below him! There are many many quite safe trails. It is a wonderful place. Amazing vistas abound. There are incredible stairs carved out of the granite running up and down the mountain. So much granite. Reminded me of Yosemite with a more humid climate. If there were as many crazy rock climbers in China as in the US Huashan would be covered with ropes and chalk marks.

My wife and I use the code words Chocolate substitute to refer to SEX!

Thank you for your writings and your pictures. Is the picture "Teacher Yu - Huashan Taoist" the man with whom you will be on retreat? If so...wonderful. I had the opportunity to meet him in 2004 on Huashan. We was very kind to me. He has a wonderful loving presence, which was brought right back to me by seeing the picture again. I hope to be in China for 3 weeks in April with my current teacher, including a brief visit to Huashan. My Avatar (which is not a picture of me ) is a picture taken at Huashan. Nice to have you here. Look forward to your further input, as time allows. Craig

Buddy. Have to give you your props. You seem to be able to make good recommendations for schools worldwide. Do you know these people too? Really an idle curiosity on my part. PS - Do you know any Bagua or Hsing I people teaching in Portland Oregon? Not that I have time to add anything, but I would love to re-learn some basic movements/forms to add to my practice. Respectfully Craig

Nice points. Good to see you here again. You have to excuse Pietro....he's Italian so he can't help it. Craig

WT Well to be simple I could just say....TTB stands for The TAO bums. Taoism is my interest. Not Buddhism, not Hinduism etc. And it seems likely this would be the common denominator among all interested parties. I would rather delve more deeply in one still broad topic - Taoism - than open up to wander the stacks of any eastern philosophy or beyond. Craig

Oolong. I am sorry it takes so long for you to get books! I usually get in stock books from Amazon in 2-3 days. I'm spoiled sinced Portland is so close to where most stock ships from(Seattle). Pietro You definitely Usurped the moderators position...oh, well, but some good thoughts put forward. Taomeow In an earlier post you mentioned some books, most of which I had never heard of (blush). Can you provide a reading list of books? It seems like you could have quite an extensive input in this area. Maybe even a list with classifications such as: Foundation information, Advanced material still useful for the beginner. Advanced material hard to work with unless you have a foundation and a teacher, Totally arcane and only for the adept. something along these lines? PS- Regarding this comment "that among the Five Phases Earth stands in the center" What is wrong with this statement? Is it not part of the circle And the center of the circle? 4 is 5 and 5 is 4. Sorry for the tangent but this seems relatively simple for you to clarify. PPS - Since you have made a skathing review of C.Luk perhaps you can also comment on why you view Eva Wong as acceptable? I have some small idea why but since your comments about C.Luk carried some weight I thought it might have some merit for you to comment in the positive on Eva Wong. Xuesheng Loving this bookclub idea, although it does seem rather organized and linear for a Taobums activity My preference would be to see assembled an extensive list of Tao classics, authors, etc. that would be assembled in one place, instead of as a thread. Hence my above query to Taomeow. Not quite sure of how that would be done, but I am pretty sure it would be a simple thing. I am along for the ride. Will probably remain neutral as to what book is chosen. Craig

Well I am sure these are nice forms, havent' checked the posts out yet, I have enjoyed your previous links. So you want to be about nay-saying and also posting links to cool practitioners on Youtube? Anything else? Like would you like to say anything yourself about your path? Craig

I quite agree. Pietro and Sean are cyber geeks par excellence. It really is a fascinating method of Forum organization. Yet who really wants to spend time tagging, regardless of it's utility. Which people will do the most tagging? Even if those empowered to tag are limited it would still skew in some way towards the viewpoint of those who are willing to do so regardless of temperament. Craig

Spiritual development does NOT require physical OK-ness. This is not what I meant to say. What I am trying to say is that traditionally it is a priority to take care of the body FIRST in order to have a better "receiver". Build up the body, the wiring, in order to be able to more easily train the more subtle layers. "The deeper the roots, the higher you can grow" Another way of saying it is to remove the distractions of the voices of the body. If your body is happy and without some parts crying for attention it is simpler to work on other layers. Regarding Maslow's Hierarchy of need; I don't think any of us would be very much focused on cultivation if we were subsistence farming and scratching for our next meal and a warm place to sleep! Craig

Would like to comment on this from Buddy: Combined with This from Seadog: Opening up your meridians and filling your body with Qi doesn't make you a spiritual person. It is not necessary to "feel" Qi in order to do Taoist practices - however you define them. I wholeheartedly agree that even should we agree on the existence of Qi that it is quite a separate issue from the question originally posed which I feel HowAboutTao clarified in his follow up comment: "The thing is that if Chi is only in our mind, then its effects on our spiritual development are very limited, since in Tao it is the balancing of Chi, opening meridians etc that is supposed to make us become more and more spiritually developed." Regardless of whether Qi is only in ones mind (warning mind is a loaded term and may mean a lot more than you intend ) it is important to understand that having full flowing Qi, physical power and good health have little to do with spiritual development. It doesn't hurt. But it doesn't necessarily help either. The original question which seems to have veered of into the discussion about the veracity of Qi was about choosing a Spiritual path. I have known some very strong, powerful martial artists who while arguably could be said to have powerful Qi did at the same time have little interest in spiritual development. On the other side of the coin. In order to make real progress in the Taoist path of Jing-Qi-Shen Vitality-Energy-Spirit Cultivation the first layer requires attention and usually primarily until Vibrant Health can be developed. While it is possible to develop all three layers at once. From the Taoist perspective ( or maybe only from mine ) it is first very important to establish this foundation. Now it can be seen in good martial arts schools that many are developing better health through good practice. But it is also possible to focus only on health and physical power to the exclusion of overall 3 layer (jing-qi-shen) development. Is Qi Real? I don't see the need to address that one in order to answer the question at hand. What is the real question? Will this path called Taoism suit my goals. In truth I don't think anyone here really knows exactly what HowAboutTao means by this question. It is really quite broad. I can only answer as to what the question means to me. Will Taoist practices suit me for my path of cultivation? I have already answered that for myself. Taoist practices mean martial arts,qigong, meditation seperate and combined in one. In my view proper cultivation of the 3 layers does entail development of the physical, energetic and spiritual layers, and they are not separate but a continuum. Craig

You should feel free to push the river.

Xuesheng We are not in disagreement. Is mindfullness just in the head? Yes I knew the question was inherent in this discussion, as well I surmised that "mindfullness practice" was a deep topic for you. What is mind, what is thought, which if any is contained in the head? What causes one to not move from their center of gravity and what are the best ways to realize and correct this? Does being too much in ones thoughts lead to energy or Qi being too much in the head? What exactly is mindfullness and can it assist in centering in ones body? to simplify my earlier statment. I think Taiji, Bagua or other physical trainging centered on the same principles would be very useful here. It is my personal experience that one can begin to learn and apply principles common to these arts without having to delve too deeply into the specific forms or techniques of those arts. If I were teaching someone who has the issues described I would try to begin with basic joint exercises as briefly described and some balancing exercises obtained from IMA training as well. I would add a simple technique which helps to sink the qi (breath and sound technique). That is what I was thnking when I wrote that Taiji would be too big a bite to take on. Perhaps I was thinking more like prescribing medicine to address the presenting issue and not asking the patient to take on more than he was willing or able as an initial response. Not everyone is willing or able to take on real martial arts training. By which I am saying I have a personal bias against "YMCA" Taiji, watered down Taiji. Which is really ironic because I am practicing at a local YMCA with a couple of friends the Taiji I am studying. I think it would be much more useful to study good principles than Fluff Taiji. Craig

Pietro's missive was edited for space leaving in only the very respectful beginning and end for reference. Pietro has here taken a great deal of time to talk to Brian about the culture of The Tao Bums from one who has been active here from the beginning. Wihle there may be ways we wish things were here in my opinion there is only the way things are. TTB is how it has always been IME. While Brian K, Buddy and others may object to how things are it seems to me that Pietro has beautifully and very hospitably written a primer on the culture of the village in which you now find yourself being more active. I think Pietro's words have wisdom. I urge anyone who seeks to understand this community to read his words carefully. ONe of the key points he makes I would like to underscore. Don't mistake sillly banter between longtime cyber friends as an attempt to hijack "your" thread. Sometimes we just want to have silly banter. ENOUGH ABOUT CRICKET ALREADY Haha. TTB is what it is. I wouldn't change it one Iota. (except maybe to spend a bit less time here myself Craig

Xuesheng I disagree with simple mindfullness practice as the prescription here. In fact since a lot of people in the west tend to be HEAD oriented they tend to be DIS connnected from their bodies. Result: clumsy and ungraceful. Focusing on mindfullness ACCOMPANIED by exercises designed to lead to a greater consciousness of the body moving in space would be a good way to address the issues at hand. I am not so sure that one can or should address being clumsy and ungraceful with a mental approach, in fact I am saying that this seems to be focusing on the head and not on the center of gravity. Not to denigrate your experience with mindfullness practice but I think the route of going directly into the body would be the most effective. What is the first lesson many IMA teachers try to get across? Sink the Qi. Bring your attention to your lower tantien. Most people have their energetic center floating higher than the Lower Tantien due to overheated heart and brain (western style excess Yang ) or other issues. <Yes I know this is a vast overgeneralization but it is my understanding of the situation > People who are overly "in their head" tend to be more clumsy and ungraceful compared to those who have put more attention into physical mastery, whether they are martial artists or any other type. People who watch TV or spend time at the computer tend also to have their energy more in their heads and less in their body. Therefore most if not all people need to learn how to Sink the Qi. (Buddy - you can just use the idea of putting your mind in your center of gravity, although I am sure you don't need IMA advice from me) Craig

Arrrgggghhh. OK. ummm. Yes there are several good ways to translate Taiji. I was kinda playin with words there. Not really the point of my post. Perhaps you would care to help out with your own suggestion to address to initial question in the thread?? Craig

While I agree that Taiji is the supreme ultimate, it may be a bit too much of a bite for starters. What is likely to be missing here is sufficient mind/body connection. It is SO common for people to be out of touch with their body. Somehow you must find a way to make that connection. I read recently somewhere (a source I trust but cannot recall at the moment) that the joints are responsible for holding the bulk of proprioception in the body. Proprioception is a big word meaning your sense of space and movement of the body. As side note I recently sprained my ankle somewhat severely, re-injuring a decades old weak point. Initially even after I could walk mostly normally I still was experiencing some interesting uncharacteristic clumsiness. Like running into things with my other foot, or knee. Seems like the inflammation in my ankle was helping to prevent me from getting proper spacial signals. I really like doing a warm up where I go through each part of my body and rotate or turn or otherwise move each joint in turn. Doing something like this WITH mindfullness will be helpful in making a better body mind connection. Focusing on opening the joints should help improve proprioception. Maybe I'll post a list of my "Taiji" warmups later as an example. Again, any martial art, yoga or similar discipline should incorporate such work, but IMA and Qigong are more likely to consciously work on developing better centering in the body. Craig

Troll or Friend, decide. Ian's words are still cojent. Do as your heart leads ....... Just my opinion Haiku infecting my posts Who is troll or friend? Craig