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Mal Well played. A bit of defining your terms goes a long way eh? English can be so strange. When not everyone can even fully agree on what a particular term is referring to in our language, what hope do we have of making sense of symbolic "jargon" from another language describing arcane processes. it is so easy to just take one word the wrong way in such a forum as this and the whole meaning you are trying to convey goes out the window. FWIW I like your approach of trying to make sense of the Jargon by defining the symbolic language for yourself in a way that helps you integrate what you have learned. Craig

Can't remember where I read this (in some Taoist tome) but I always tried to apply it. Run up hill like a deer. Come down hill like a tiger. Deer springs up with energy focused on the tailbone and antlers (crown) energy rises up. Tiger rolls down hill with coiled springy energy absorbing and spreading out the impact. Of course when you are tired and/or wearing a heavy pack, this definitely gets harder to do well. Craig

Bindo What are you still holding on to. Yep, I made an inference/assumption. My bad. But IME when someone posts a couple sentences the reader has to do their best to make links between one post and the next in order to intrepret what is being said. You strenuously object to my taking the inference that you had a negative opinion. that is now very clear. MWight. Thanks for backing up your initial entry with more substantive objections. PS - I never defended the guy. Don't know him. Just trying to ask for a fair hearing based on substance and not reaction to someones web-presentation. Seems like there is reason to see red flags here. thats all. I'm out of here. Craig

Yo, Dude!!! Chill. Sorry to have riled you. I was Trying to point out that just because someone is using "slick" marketing does not necessarily mean they are full of shit. You are correct, your simple statement merely pointed out the connection between him and Matt Furey without any judgement. But it seemed clear to me that there was an inference. Who has a bug up their ass? Look to the degree of your reaction to my writing. Flame off bro. Craig

Hey Mantra Without asking you to tell us the practice in detail, perhaps you could share a description of what the practice/technique is? What are the purposes, appications. Just a few more details. Two sentences is not enough of your deathless prose Craig

Bindo are you objecting to someone using internet marketing tactics as being discrediting towards what is being offered? Who is being superficial the marketer or you? MWight "If I were enlightened, or was under the tutelage of a truly enlightened master, I would make the teachings as cheap and as widely available as possible." How do you know this is not the case with Ragnar? Do you really think anyone is getting rich promoting Qigong? The following are the traditional 4 requirements for successful cultivation. Fa - Cai - Lu - Di Method - Finance - Company - Environment. You must have a method. But it is not enough. You must have some support, financial, family, friends etc. Company. You must have some people to connect with the share notes, ground you, etc. You must have a good environment in which to cultivate. A recurring theme I hear from people is that of objecting to teachers charging for spiritual work. You should expect a coach to charge you to train you physically - a personal trainer. You should expect an acupuncturist to charge you to work on your Qi layer (as an example). Why wouldn't you expect a spiritual teacher to charge to educate you as well?? Hey, Priests earn a living from their church and/or congregation. Why do we think it is wrong for other spiritual teachers to earn a living also?? You want to do cultivation? You need support. Unless you have managed to achieve full time breatharianism then I suppose you won't need money...but then I guess you have already cultivated, and had support to get to that point Freeform How about some comment? You posted the link, but what do you know or surmise from your perusal of Ragnar's material, especially with regard to "Magnetic" Qi? Craig

While it may potentially be possible for a woman to take too much energy from a man I would suggest that you not worry about such things. IF the woman is interested in the health of her partner and has love for him and/or has correct intention I think the chance of harm coming from this recirculation of energy is Zero. If the woman is worried about this she should make sure her man has mastered semen retention (ha ha, so easy to say :-) ). Both partners should be engaged in recirculation and SHARING of energy. IF a woman is trained and the man is not she should still be trying to recirculate the energy back with her partner. Worst case, if a woman is Trying to take energy from the man then her intention is impure and the man may be at risk. But is this a real possibility in the case of the people we are talking about here? I doubt it. Even if such were the case the woman would have to be a real Adept to have a strong negative effect on the man. More dangerous for the man is simply too frequent ejaculation regardless of their partner's energetic state. As my teacher has said about similar things. "If you are thinking like that your spirit is already lost". Focus on opening up your own channels and circulating your energy, developing your sensitivity. Don't worry about such things. Open your heart and develop your compassion. There is no real danger here. Craig

Ian You are so right on. this is not a fun one to respond to it is fundamental and self exposing. I have tried in a roundabout way to ask such a question myself in my Neigong thread. What are the goals of Neigong? Anyway my goals: Vibrant health. Longevity. Inner peace. Spiritual knowledge. Healing ability. Oh yeah, almost forgot. Immortality...he he. I mean why not. If you are gonna be a bear, might as well be a grizzlie. I think I have gone a little way down the road with 3-4 of these. Long way to go, no arrival, just going on the way. Tao And yes my answer is partially tongue in cheek. And no, I don't know what enlightenment means. Craig

Currently I am practicing a form called 28 Lunar mansions Qi gong which is from the Ermei Zhengong school. I study with Master Wu Zhongxian as much as possible. I have learned several Qigong forms from him including the Shamanic Tiger qigong which is in part the subject of his book "Vital Breath of the Tao". I have been working on doing the form daily for 49 days following learning the form in order to get it planted for further cultivation. Master Wu recommends doing new practices daily for 49 days in order to really "get" them. This form has 28 different movements or postures. It is quite rigorous, I would have to say the most physical form I have yet done in some sense because of the nature of several of the moves. Took about an hour to do it this morning with my two practice partners and we were all quite worn out physically at the end. We had intended to practice the 75 move Taiji form also taught by Master Wu ( Wudang He style Taiji, aka Zhaobao village Taiji) but we were all a bit worn out so... So lately this Qigong set and Taiji practice are my practice. Don't have the opportunity to work regularly with a master on my Taiji, but I have enough to practice for now. Thanks for asking. Craig

No disrespect Buddy. With few words to read one naturally has to try to figure out what is being said and not written. I respect your agnostic position. I am not talking about a specific type of Qi, more exploring the fact that you said you don't believe in it. Now you are naming different flavors of Qi which seems strange since you don't believe in them. You are right on some level it doesn't matter. Great power and accomplishment is possible in Martial Arts without the necessity to consciously explore Qi. In fact many schools frown upon actually moving Qi or doing anything with the mind as it relates to the flow of Qi. "you don't need a belief in Qi to make Neigong work" This could be true. It seems strange to me that you could go very far into such practice without some experience of the movement of Qi. However as I said before I think it is very possible that what one person might experience as "ordinary physical phenomenon" could very well be interpreted as Qi and its effects by another. Hey, I am just an ordinary practitioner of Qigong, not Neigong and not advanced in IMA. Maybe I am missing out, but I am getting benefit from what I practice. Off to Sunday morning practice... Craig

OK Buddy. I think I get where you are coming from now. You don't believe in Qi. I interpret that what you mean is you don't believe in people being tossed around by Qi in a martial application. But not believing in Qi at all. As in all theory about Qi, energy and how in moves in the body, Traditional Oriental Medicine...none of that either? Really I can accept that you don't believe in martial super powers related to non touch Qi emission. But you have no experience or belief in Qi as it functions in more ordinary aspects of Medicine and Qigong? ...really? IF so, that's your perogative of course, but you must realize that it is not in accordance with dare I say most teachers of traditional martial arts, not to mention 99.5% of all Traditional Oriental Medical practitioners, etc. Not that I am trying to convince you of anything. Just kind of boggles my mind a bit since the experience of Qi and theory and practice around this have been deeply integrated. Maybe we have a definition miscommunication again? You tell me if you care to. Maybe what you consider "not outside the realm of ordinary physical nature" crosses over into what others would experience as Qi? Craig

This is a forum. You can read or post what and where you want. If you don't want to read or write about Kunlun....DONT. If you have another thread you want to start...DO IT. By asking about Kunlun you only expanded on the discussion. The Tao is simple, people want to make it complicated. Craig

Who could oppose that opposition finds what fault? opposed to return?

Thank you Starjumper Your answer is sufficient and seems thorough considering that you must hold back from revealing too much. With Gratitude. Craig

Thank you for posting the above to help define what you understand as Nei gong. Again, I point out it is not necessary to denigrate Buddy who freely expressed his perspective. It would be more constructive for the purpose of this thread at least to just take peoples comments as they are. Your contention with Buddy has been very evident to anyone paying attention. I am more interested in hearing where people are coming from, i.e. what is their understanding, than in trying to show who is right and who is wrong. So you have shown a very detailed description of the practice and goals of K.F.'s method of Nei gong. Thank you for that it is instructive. Perhaps you to demonstrate the difference between Nei gong as you understand it and "internal alchemy" you could post a similar description of what it is. Thanks Craig

Thanks for that, this is the personal perspective I sought. I do not disagree with your perspective. By your website I presume you mean Empirical Taoism which is on your signature. It seems, from what I have gathered by the correspondence between Buddy and Pietro and your input that Nei gung(gong, kung...whatever) is comprised of a multitude of standing postures done either in a series as one progresses, or assigned by the teacher as the student requires. I assume it also has meditation, both passive and active. I was interested in a description of the process from beginner forward. Sort of an outline of what such training consists of. Not asking for secrets. I respect your position. If you have said all you care to a stranger asking intimate questions I respect that as well. Just trying to ferret out where you are coming from. I think you could say a lot about real Nei gong from a very traditional perspective. This could shed some light on a subject which could use further illumination and is often misunderstood or not really known at all. I have studied Martial Arts for a long time 25-30 years depending upon where you put the starting point. I have practiced and explored meditation for longer than that. Explored various styles of Qigong and internal MA since the mid 80's. I know I have learned only a little. Enough to seek out what I consider a Real teacher and plunge wholeheartedly into everything he can teach me however limited that might be from your perspective, which I have done since 2006. I have a pretty good idea of how much I do not know. This is why I ask with a beginners mind about Nei gong. Although I have an idea of my own what Internal Alchemy - Nei gong is, I was not sure what your idea is, or what a traditional approach to this subject is. Pop Taoism doesn't really cover it in my opinion. I think you know what I mean by Pop Taoism. By the way. I have to point out that No where did I mention Seattle. I live near Portland, but I never said anything about coming to Seattle in this thread or elsewhere. Married with kids, not available for long term comittment to a teacher and moving to a new city. I hope you had a good class. As for myself, I was off coaching my Son's Basketball team. How's that for a slice of ordinary Americana. With respect Sifu Starjumper Craig

hmmmm OK. I know I didn't say anything about moving to Seattle... So does Nei gong = Inner Alchemy? You seem to have answered one of the questions I posed: What is the difference between Qi gong practice and Nei gong? What about these- Can you define for me what is a REAL NEI GUNG system? What are the goals of Real Nei Gung practice? What are the results of having achieved the "mountaintop" I am not asking you to reveal anything specific about your school, just want to understand better. Neigong as a System is sort of a new concept to me, especially the way you and others have presented it recently. Also you seem to be saying that in your view Most if not All Qigong being taught is just incomplete or only watered down like Medical Qigong for example. Thanks for taking the time. Craig

Umm, OK. Care to expand upon that at all? Nourishing Life exercise also preceded the term Qigong (sorry forgot the Chinese translation of that term). By "inner body" do you mean what others term the energy body? Also, maybe expand upon the four questions I posed if you care to. How does Neigong differ from Qigong - you seem to be saying it is the same. What is the goal of Neigong. What characteristics does it have which differ from Qigong or Internal Martial Arts trainng. Someone said "Neigong" is the operating system of my training. What does this mean to you? I am trying to explore this from the perspective of a beginner and make no assumptions. Your input is appreciated. Craig

Buddy It seems you are skeptical of certain Masters so called powers. Based on your development in IMA - which I gleaned from your previous posts - you Do believe in cultivation of physical arts which in turn implies culitivation of Qi as well. So it appears that you believe in physical cultivation and Qi cultivation, but not in spiritual cultivation. Would you agree? It seems to be a bit of a disconnect to accept the premises of internal martial arts on the layers of physical and Qi but not to accept the premise of cultivation of the spiritual layer or Shen. In my view (which is not a unique one) the three layers are connected, Jing Qi Shen. Just as Yin/Yang are not two but one so are Jing Qi Shen not three and separate but one and connected on a continuum. Just seems like a contradiction to me. The Taoist world view - as I know it admittedly from outside the culture - is whole. Practicing IMA and Taoist spirituality are inseparable. So it seems clear that there is a necessity for physical cultivation to develop physical abilities (martial arts or other...) By logical progression it would seem obvious there is a need for Qi cultivation to develop related abiliities and a necessity for Spiritual cultivation to develop there as well. It seems a cop out to say that spirituality is just so and there is no necessity for cultivation. But, I don't know anything about Advaita or Dzogchen either so... Practice of IMA should lead to development of all three layers. If only physical and Qi power are developed then it is incomplete. Now what you said about not believing in powers , and that powers don't have anything to do with spirituality is not something I disagree with. On the other hand powers (which according to the above statement may or may not exist) don't necessarily indicate a Lack of spirituality either. Anyway, why would you want anyone to offer you a free slot to study anything? Your cup seems quite full as it is. Craig

Uh oh. Scatalogical reference alert....ha ha. Better watch out for the wrath of the Procurator. Actually, toilet paper did exist before the roll was invented, so I think your analogy loses something there, or did you mean that since Taiji is Qigong that it really doesnt matter? OK, sorry, will be less silly now. I first learned hard style martial arts. There was almost no reference to inner force, energy, Qi, etc. I later realized that when I started with MA practice that what I was really looking for was internal arts. Meanwhile my ego got caught up in the creating power the hardstyle way and feeling like I was in control and able to handle myself. Illusions, but useful ones at the time. Later I began to study internal arts. The perspective of my teacher (not really a master and he wouldn't let me call him sifu) was that internal arts ARE Qigong. Bagua walking the circle was our primary Qigong practice, along with some simple standing. Nowadays I study with one teacher from whom I am learning Taiji and Qigong. His perspective is also that Taiji IS Qigong. Lately I have been wondering if just doing Taiji is enough. Or to put it another way, what do I get out of other Qigong sets that I don't or can't get out of Taiji. It's an ongoing dialog. Two years ago I had no interest in Taiji, but since studying Qigong with this teacher who was also teaching Taiji I was brought around and now I am fully pursuing the study. Craig

Curator Why don't you just directly come out and say what you want to. "All of you are weak and simple minded" and "You are all wasting your time." and "my teacher has the only authentic teaching, everything else is stupid and fraudulent." Or, never mind, don't even come out and say it. How about instead you tell us what you want out of your interaction on this forum. YOU have expressed your basic contempt for the "new age" mindset which prevails here (paraphrasing you). Why don't you set us all straight and let your wisdom rain down so we may be enlightened like you. Or, provide a list of what you think are "made up falsities" in order that those of us with merit enough to see your wisdom may avoid such. What are you doing for yourself here? What are you doing for others? Well if nothing else, perhaps we are providing you with amusement while we entertain ourselves with the "practice" of our "made up falsities". wearily yours Craig

Oh for goodness sakes Bagua and Hsing I. Cameron asks "Which art is best?" Lets have some definition of the terms of your question please!!! or, never mind just do Bagua and/or Hsing I. Funny. I haven't done Bagua training for a while. Had a dream last night where I was doing circle walking in the millstone position while my teacher and old chinese lady in her 70's was teaching some other female disciples as I did my circle walking. Seems to have been taking place in a park in China. Later I demonstrated my coiling and releasing power to a white guy (might have been Mike Patterson) while walking down the street. What does it mean? IF I had a high level, or even a medium level Bagua guy to study with I would do it in a second. Meanwhile, I will do my best to download what I can from the dream state.... ramble, ramble. Zhaobao Taiji for now is good enough. Cheers Craig

Aint it silly. How many times have I seen this type of talk. I remember the VERY FIRST time I went on the internet, way , way back near the beginning, sometime before 1996 I think, when it wasn't very widely available. There were already people talking about who could beat who. Muhammed Ali Vs. Bruce Lee and the like. The more things change the more they stay the same. Who knows who will beat who, or why. Can you best yourself? I know I could defeat the martial artist I was 10 years ago. thats something I think. la de da....back to the mat. Craig

Bindo I couldn't agree with you more. Jade Medicine and Dragon eggs were excellent products, I used them myself. I don't think it was the government which brought this company down from what I remember. Now you have piqued my curiosity. What happened with the govt?? Craig Dude, relax, they are doing a major revamp of their website. The site you found is ancient history, I don't know if you can actually order from there. Just call them up. 888-55-TONIC or 310-917-2288 (Santa Monica, CA). They have a beautiful catalog, I don't know if they charge for it, but you could ask. Step away from the computer and pick up the phone Or do what I do and get a VOIP service like SKYPE and stay on the computer and pick up the phone Craig