Vajrahridaya

You take up the lack of concepts as ultimate nature, therefore you fall into the trap of an extreme. The cosmos is infinite semantics and emptiness, both, not one transcending the other, but in balance. Form is emptiness and emptiness is nothing other then form.

I say in my experience quite often Marblehead.

What else does one hope to use in a place where only words can be used for communication? Why not celebrate their wonder and beauty and realize the meaning they are pointing to from within?

ralis, It is you who are fixated and can't see past his assumptions. You are still too young in spirituality to see this fact.

Thanks big guy! I appreciate your clocking in. Sorry... couldn't resist a pun.

Hi there Mr. should I say... conclusion jumper star? I would like to state for the record, that I don't think every Taoist system is inferior, as I do think that some systems of Taoism do lead to the same enlightenment as the Buddha, but they are generally speaking, pretty hard to find and quite secret for the sake of posterity as most really deep Buddhist teachings and practices are as well. I do mostly think that plenty of peoples views of the Tao do lack insight and are not emptied enough of reifying or deifying interpretations, just like in some Buddhists about Buddhism. Yes, the TTC is quite ambiguous, so is up for so many interpretations... which a lot of people like and yes, every reading evolves with you. I don't find all interpretations to be up to par in my experienced opinion and that's all I state, for the most part. I have stated many times before that I do feel that some views on the Tao could pass Buddha-rific inspection. Now, I don't think anyone should take any of my opinions personally, unless of course I do strike a cord of personal resonance, then I think it's time to look in the mirror. Buddhism on the other hand does have a clear lineage of interpretation, but on another spoke of the wheel of confusion, I don't think that every lineage within Buddhism does speak as clearly or procure the methodology leading to ultimate clarity with succinct ability as some others. Now, I'm sure you could say the same about the many, many Taoist lineages. Am I right or wrong? I'm quite sure there are some Taoist lineages or teachers that you would not agree with. Of course, on yet another hand, everyone needs whatever they need in order to evolve as everyone does evolve as is the way of the Tao, even if they have to take many steps back first in order to re-learn or clarify some lessons. I for one use the I-Ching quite regularly through coin throwing in order to help clarify my path. I interpret the terms through my understanding of what the Buddha said. If that is wrong to you, you can go sit in the corner with your judgment and suffer yourself, or just get over the fact that I am a follower of "Awake-ism", which is translated in Sanskrit as Buddhism. For me, Buddhism is not a religion but the way of seeing and methodology that leads to liberated vision. Plenty of paths employ one Buddha method or another as Buddhas, or "awake beings" if you please, do influence so many beings on so many levels as that is part of the path. Buddhas help others and influence as deeply as possible on levels while alive and even after physical falling away into the so called "spirit" realms. So, if some of your traditions' Taoist Immortals have the same level of enlightenment as Buddhist Immortals, you can bet that they're swapping information on higher levels of being than most people can assess. So, let's let bygones be bygones, not bigots and let's not take anyone's opinion with so much spite and bitterness... eh? Can we not get along, even if we do not agree? Why let an adverse view turn into a spit fest? You and plenty of others here need to get a grip on what the inner cause of your tension truly is. Also for the record. Yes, I am a fundamentalist! I want to know the fundamentals of how the cosmos works directly, through both methods of spiritual practice, philosophy which goes along with method and psychology. I do find fault in some views on things and I state that. I am aloud to disagree and state why. I am also aloud to ask for a deeper clarification of terms from peoples own perspectives. I do not agree that the Tao is an ontological essence. Is that not ok?

If you take a bit of time to read the quotes from the explanation of visualization meditation I posted above from the Anuttarayoga Tantra, one does need to employ the experience of mindfulness and integrate this experience with everyday waking life, which actually happens naturally if one is practicing correctly. One is not being attached to the visualization as one is also employing the insight of emptiness/dependent origination. This happens naturally as during the visualization, your mind starts to see all colors and forms as the experience of meditation. This is why the visualization works, because you are turning your field of vision with colors and experience through your senses into the meditative experience. You are basically enlightening the experience of seeing and feeling, tasting and being in every day natural life. This is in fact part of the contemplation employed while visualizing. To integrate all your life with the meditation deity along with the mindfulness of emptiness. So, when you get up from the creative meditation process, you are re-experiencing your world through the practice of enlightened vision.

Oooo, neat! I used to do something similar to this until my body was filled with pulsating bliss like energy particle awareness, or something like that. I would feel my brain was like made of bliss particles... HAHA! It works!

Though the below is really not to be practiced directly until one has reached a certain stage in the completion with visualization as spoken above in the quotes and links. So first one is to know the above fruit of visualization meditation techniques, then employ the experience with the below. The completion stages of practice are to be utilized with the below which may come as a shocker to many; "Guhyasamaja Tantra Sanskrit guhyasamaja: Secret Observances Tib., gsang ba 'dus pa: Assembly of Secrets This "assembly of secrets" is probably the earliest and most important of Buddhist Tantric scriptures; attributed to Asanga, the 4th century Yogacara master. This treatise, sometimes simply referred to as the Samaja Tantra but also as Tathagata Guhyaka, represents one of the root texts that were instrumental in the development of Vajrayana and belongs to the highest class of its teachings, the Anuttara Yoga Tantra. According to tradition, these teachings were given from Tilopa to Naropa, through whom they arrived in the Kadam-pa/Gelug-pa and Kagyud-pa traditions. The ancient Tantra also states that - if psychic powers (siddhis) are to be acquired - women must always be associated with those who attempt to reach this goal. Such attainment of psychic powers and training in magic is one of the main topics of the Guhyasamaja, and some of the magic spells and rituals are clearly ancient ones in that they are also known in cultures the world over. The text also speaks of the virtues inherent in desire and sensory enjoyment, the well-being of body and mind, and of realizing the Buddha nature through the union of female and male. It differs from many later texts in not condemning male ejaculation but says that "when the diamond (i.e. lingam) is connected to the lotus (i.e. yoni) in the union of both polarities, one worships the Buddhas and the diamond beings with the drops of one's semen." We also read that the male adept, or yogi, "lets his semen flow out continuously in the form of mandalas". [translated from the German edition. Gäng. p.145f] The text allows for ritual union between siblings and between mother with son, indicating that even within the fold of Buddhism (with its unequivocal prohibition of "adultery" and its demand for continence), Tantra preserved its radical element of civil disobedience. This is also evident in works such as the Prajnopaya-viniscaya Siddhi. Here two more quotes from the text, their similarity clearly showing its general tone. "Do not suppress your feelings, choose whatever you Will, and do whatever you desire, for in this way you please the Goddess." "No one succeeds in attaining perfection by employing difficult and vexing operations; but perfection can be gained by satisfying all ones desires." There are various similarities between this text and the later Kalachakra Tantra (ca. 750), as both texts deal extensively with magic and ritual sexuality; especially the so-called Sadanga Yoga (Yoga of Six Limbs) all six stages of which are practiced while the two partners are sexually aroused and joined in the yab-yum position. Literature Gäng, Peter. Das Tantra der verborgenen Vereinigung: Guhyasamaja-Tantra. Munich: 1988. Wayman, A. The Yoga of the Guhyasamaja Tantra: The Arcane Lore of Forty Verses. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1977. " Further reading on the Guhyasamaja Tantra http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=highest+yoga+tantra&x=0&y=0 I read the one by Daniel Cozort, but any one of the highest rated ones might do just fine for an introductory explanation of such esoterica. Anyway, Visualization techniques accompanied by mindfulness or Vipassana in Pali or Vipashyana in Sanskrit along with guidance by a true adept, does accomplish everything.

You should read before you comment, instead of reacting from the place of dogma you have limiting your perception of my posts. Just a suggestion.

As far as the power and intent of meditation with visualization... I'll just post some links and quotes. As far as mindfulness meditation like in Vipassana, it is suggested that one get acquainted with this quite early on and during the practices listed below. So really, one needs both Vipashyana and Visualization in Tantra. Generation Stage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Stage From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In Tantric Buddhism, the generation stage (T:kye rim; S:utpatti-krama) is the first phase of meditative Buddhist sādhana associated with the 'Father Tantra' (Wylie: pha-rgyud; pa-rgyud) class of anuttara-yoga-tantras of the Sarmapa or associated with what is known as Mahayoga Tantras by the Nyingmapa. An example of a 'Father Tantra' is the Guhyasamāja Tantra. The generation stage engages creative imagination or visualization as an upaya or skillful means of personal transformation through which the practitioner (sadhaka) either visualizes a meditational deity (yidam) or refuge tree before themselves in front generation, or as themselves in self generation, to engender an alteration to their perception and/or experience of the appearance aspect of reality.[1] The complement of the generation/development/creation stage is the completion stage (T:dzog rim; S:saṃpanna-krama). Front generation Front generation is a form of meditative visualization employed in Tantric Buddhism in which the yidam is visualized as being present in the sky facing the practitioner as opposed to the self-identification that occurs in self generation. According to the Vajrayana tradition, this approach is considered less advanced, hence safer for the sadhaka, and is engaged more for the rites of propitiation and worship.[2] Self generation Self generation is a form of meditative visualization employed in Tantric Buddhism in which the yidam is invoked and then merged with the sadhaka as an upaya of self-transformation. This is as opposed to the method of front generation. According to the Vajrayana tradition, self generation is held to be more advanced and accompanied by a degree of spiritual risk from the siddhi (mental powers) it may rapidly yield. ...................And the all important completion stage: Completion stage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Completion_Stage The completion stage (Tibetan:dzog rim; Sanskrit:saṃpanna-krama) is one of the two stages of Anuttarayoga Tantra. Completion stage may also be translated as perfection stage or fulfillment mode. The other stage of Anuttarayoga Tantra, which generally precedes the completion stage, is the generation stage (Tibetan:kye rim; Sanskrit:utpatti-krama). The completion stage is the second phase of the Vajrayana Buddhist sadhana, or practice texts, associated with the Anuttarayoga Tantra, which in Dzogchen correspond to the Inner Tantras: Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Ati Yoga. Although completion stage appears in the Anuttarayoga Tantra in general, it is especially associated with the Mother Tantras such as the Hevajra Tantra. Completion stage practices are therefore associated with the development of a Vajra Body, through practices that purify the movement of lung in the subtle body. Definition The Dharma Dictionary defines the 'Completion Stage' as follows: One of the two aspects of Vajrayana Practice. The meaning and depth of this principle changes while ascending through the three outer sections and the three inner sections of Tantra. For instance, the completion stage defined as the dissolving of the visualization of a deity corresponds to Mahayoga; the "Completion stage with marks" based on yogic practices such as tummo corresponds to Anu Yoga: and the "Completion stage without marks" is the practice of Ati Yoga.[1] The completion stage engages creative imagination or visualization and emphasizes the voidness aspect of reality as a skillful means of personal transformation. The completion stage employs the "mystic vortices" of the body, the cakra, the subtle energy of the subtle body, the five pranas or vāyu, together with the channels, the nadi through which the energy flows in order to generate the 'great bliss' (Tibetan: Dem Chog or bde-mchog; Sanskrit: Maha-sukha) associated with bodhi or enlightenment.[2] Dowman (1984: unpaginated), in elucidating the spiritual disciplines of the Mahasiddhas, links the completion stage with the Two Truths, voidness, along with a suite of advanced Mahamudra sadhana and other practices that are related to the Six Yogas of Naropa such as tummo: Fulfillment meditation includes "higher" techniques of meditation, which result in understanding of ultimate truth. But since relative and ultimate truth are two sides of the same coin, creative and fulfillment stages both lead to the same goal. Fundamentally, fulfillment meditation techniques entail the perception of emptiness in form, or the dissolution of form into emptiness: the dissolution of the creative stage vision into emptiness is technically a fulfillment stage practice. Examples of fulfillment mode yogas are dream yoga, the yoga of the mystic heat, Mahamudra meditation, the yoga of the apparitional body, the yoga of resurrection, clear light meditation, and the yoga of uniting skillful means [upaya] and perfect insight [prajna] to create the seed-essence of pure pleasure.[3] "Seed-essence" is a rendering of tigle and changchubsem = 'seed-essence' = yang life-force = white bodhicitta. Seed-essence (Sanskrit: bija-tattva) is cognate with bindu (Sanskrit) and gankyil (Tibetan). Dowman (1984: unpaginated) further maps the instrumentation[4] of "fulfillment meditation" in relation to the Mahamudra kundalini raising of the 'phowa of Great Transference' ("ultimate liberation") through the cranial fontanelle at the 'Bardo of Death' and a subsidiary preparatory sexual yoga: The system of visualization vital in fulfillment meditation is that of the subtle body. This imaginary subtle body consists of psychic nerves - nadi, their focal points or energy centers - cakras; the energy that runs in the nerves - prana; and the essence of prana, known as "seed-essence" or bindu. A central channel, or nerve, runs from the sexual center to the fontanelle, and the left, rasana, and right, lalana, channels run parallel joining the central channel, the avadhuti, at the gut center. Converging from all parts of the body like physical veins, subsidiary nerves enter the central channel at the five focal points of psychic energy - the sexual, gut, heart, throat and head centers. Visualization of this system allows the yogin to manipulate the energies relating to the various centers for different mundane purposes, but the highest aim is to inject all energy into the central channel and up to the head center where ultimate liberation is achieved. The key to this system relates right and left channels to skillful means (male) and perfect insight (female) respectively, and the central channel to their union - Mahamudra. In an important sexual yoga, with or without a sexual partner, red and white seed-essence, bodhicittas, are mixed in the sexual center to rise up the central channel as kundalini. This is the yoga of uniting pure pleasure and emptiness.[3] Dalton (2003: unpaginated) states that: The perfection stage practices are often divided into those without signs (mtshan med) and those with signs (mtshan bcas). The former refer to practices in which the enlightened view is accomplished instantaneously, without any effort, “like a fish leaping out of the water.” The latter – the practices with signs – are generally the perfection stage practices known collectively as “channels and winds” (rtsa lung). Here, the practitioner works with a system of channels within one’s body, through which are moving the “winds” – subtle energies closely related to one’s mind. [5] Berzin (2008: unpaginated) frames the energetic process of the completion stage and in so doing, mentions the Clear Light, the Illusory Body, and the Rupakaya: On the complete stage, we cause the energy-winds (rlung, Skt. prana) to enter, abide, and dissolve in the central channel. This enables us to access the subtlest level of mental activity (clear light, ‘ od-gsal) and use it for the nonconceptual cognition of voidness – the immediate cause for the omniscient mind of a Buddha. We use the subtlest level of energy-wind, which supports clear light mental activity, to arise in the form of an illusory body (sgyu-lus) as the immediate cause for the network of form bodies (Skt. rupakaya) of a Buddha.

Well worded amigo!

Yes, kind of like Tao Chi Chuan. Another translation of what you are saying I've seen is written like this; "The soft and the pliable will defeat the hard and strong." But, I would say more like the soft and pliable will defeat the rigid and brittle.

There are layers of common grounds between all spiritual traditions.

There seem to be many co-relations between the expressed theories of timeless spiritual experiences and current findings in science and physics. It's pretty interesting.

I'm talking to Starjumper and his specific brand of expression right now.

I would say it takes inner strength to be flexible, yielding and supple. I think it's an inner weakness to be rigid, hard and inflexible. I think that this is what is being said though. It's kind of a paradox.

The offended makes more violence than the offender.

There is no exhaustion to explanation, just as there is no end to an enlightened sages compassion, the fuel being endless sentient beings. There is no way to fully define the unlimited, even though the unlimited constantly limits and defines.

I would not define the Tao as an ontological essence. Well then... Mutual co-origination, or inter-dependent co-origination. As in, nothing arises from it's own nature but only through relationship with other causes and conditions. Just like your thought arises from the pool of your mind due to causes and conditions outside of the thought itself and the energy of your mind is defined by it's content, unconscious, sub-conscious or conscious as that content may be. A thought arises due to phenomenal relationships. Vibration manifests in many different ways according to relationships and there are all sorts of vibrations on many levels and dimensions, all inter-relating. I'm very glad that Buddhas are compassionate towards a person as spiritually handicapped as myself.

I would not define the Tao or (the Way) like this. I would merely say that the Tao is saying dependent origination. The way of movement without end or beginning. Kind of like how you and MH are describing it are in accord with my own understanding to one degree or another. So, thus it's not an ontological essence for me, just as it's not for you. It's merely the way of the never ending flow, from contraction to expansion, all empty of inherent existence but relative experience keeps on ticking.

This sounds kind of like Spanda in the Spanda Karikas of Trika Shaivism.

Well... you do have power over me in here.

Thank you for showing me how ostentatious I can be. :lol: