Vajrahridaya

No, dependent origination is dependent origination, but it's not merely the concepts of it, it's not merely the finger, it's the shining moon, but only when you get it intuitively. As the Buddha also said, besides the finger pointing metaphor, "When you see dependent origination, you will see the dharma, and when you see the dharma you will see me." So, it is the moon, but only when you stop clinging to it as a concept. I completely disagree, so do the Buddhas. I think they are far more qualified than any of us here. See this is showing that you don't understand dependent origination. It's not that you need it, it's that you exist due to the fact that it's how existence works. It doesn't work any other way except originating dependently add infinitum. So, in a sense, you are dependent origination.

No, dependent origination is dependent origination, but it's not merely the concepts of it, it's not merely the finger, it's the shining moon, but only when you get it intuitively. As the Buddha also said, besides the finger pointing metaphor, "When you see dependent origination, you will see the dharma, and when you see the dharma you will see me." So, it is the moon, but only when you stop clinging to it as a concept.

LOL! No, the finger is the moon. But, where you guys are getting it wrong, is thinking that pratityasamutpada is merely a conceptual formulation. It is not like other teachings, and you won't get that until you get that. Interdependent origination is not a formula, it's in fact how all formulas manifest and how you have come up with the choice to speak your words. You think you are in control, making choices, but you don't realize that you are out of control, conditioned, and the cause to the effect of your opinion is an endless chain of not seeing emptiness directly, which is not the same as seeing a "one" behind all things. It's much subtler than that. So no... I have not gone wrong. p.s. When it is said in Buddhism to go beyond the finger, the Buddhas are talking about going beyond the teaching as being a conceptual formula. It must become an intuition, then you see the moon that the formula of dependent origination/emptiness is pointing to. Take care.

If you don't yet see how interdependent co-arising applies to every aspect of your being, cellularly, experientially, to everything, absolutely everything, then you are still holding it at a distance and it hasn't been realized on an intuitive level yet. Which might only happen through transmission from a Buddha lineage. According to the Buddha, it is the only way to liberation, all others fall short. Nagarjuna said the same thing. They deeply, and experientially understood your point of view as well. So, they weren't lying. Take care.

Yes, this is my thinking recently exactly. I'm going to spend less time here, more quality time with the women I live with and more time outside because it's getting cooler. I'm going to start working out again too!! Plus do my regular Dzogchen practice and Hatha Yoga as well. YAY!! Love ya Serene!!

Yes! A reminder of how deep the Bible can be!

The pathless path, the viewless view... dependent origination/emptiness. Take care! EDIT: I would rather say here... inter-dependent-arising.

Marble... how many times do we have to go through this. We Buddhists see that we do exist, relatively, not ultimately. We only appear due to endless causes and conditions which also exist relative to endless causes and conditions. This is all, we do not say that we don't exist. We say that we exist relative to everything else, and that's all. Take care! Please try to take this in... finally, and understand what we Buddhists are saying by "I do not exist". We say that only in the ultimate sense. Take away the causes and conditions for my existence and what do you have? My non-existence. Which is not possible because that's figurative speech, so yes, of course I exist, relative to everything else. We just see the emptiness of it all though, we see that it is relative so we don't cling to this existence as the end all be all. No permanent entity here. Just a process without a discernible nature other than impermanence and interconnected activities of processes.

It's true that some Buddhists use this "axiom" as a very limiting dogma. Generally those that have not experienced the thirst quenching of the dharma as of yet and still suffer all the little unnecessary aggravations brought on by a mind compounded by a society of pointless desires. They take up the first part of the 4 noble truths without giving credence to the other aspects. The 2nd noble truth declares that the source of suffering is ignorance, attachment, clinging. So even by clinging to the first noble truth the 2nd noble truth is not realized. Much less the 3rd which declares that freedom from the 1st noble truth is attainable. Thus revealing that the 1st noble truth is truly relative and not an absolute in and of itself like some all pervasive deity that is worshiped and venerated. "whooooo.... life is suffering... whooooo great lord....... this is the Truth, the Truth!!" I've also met Buddhists like this. I'm like... "Haven't you experienced the joy and wisdom of the 8 fold noble path? The 4th noble truth that declares the path itself that frees you from the 1st noble truth?" Oh well... everyone has their process of progress. I'll dance because I know how! I'll cry blissfully and compassionately for everyone too... because... Yes truly there is no life after this one as this one is merely a display of seemingly real conditions without any discernible nature other than movement and impermanence. The realization of this is bliss and freedom. But, I was speaking merely to a certain level or dimension of activity, namely. Birth, old age, and death, to re-birth, old age, and death... Just the illusion of delusion, that's all. Merely a process without any discernible source, or identity to become one with. My only purpose as a Buddhist is to realize the 3 kayas. The mind that knows emptiness and dependent origination all the time intuitively and suffers no more is the hyper blissful dharmakaya body. The voice that shines AS the energy of this realization is the sambhogakaya body. The emanation in whatever realm that reflects the knowledge and wisdom of these attainments is the nirmanakaya, body of impervious Buddha virtue beyond dualistic notions, walking, talking, living, doing whatever is necessary to help plant seeds of dharma. You too!

One can't help a mind already made up. What you consider real is merely through the limits of your thus far remembered experience and this is all. You are so sure about what you do not know. Being more agnostic would suit intelligence a whole lot more. When even scientists with PHD's on the subject cannot yet determine if the mind is merely brain made or something subtler. You in all your glory have determined the reality. Wonderful! It's fine Seth. We are just having a conversation here. Don't take it too seriously. I'm speaking as I know as you are, no problem. Relax. I've had all these experiences which reify a source and a supreme deity to all. I later realized after transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche that it was all merely my karma talking to me, kind of a cosmic schizophrenia, which I would merge with at will, then separate from to feel the bliss and longing of separation, those drowning tears of incredible longing, then the utter relaxed calm of merging, separating, merging, just for the play of it. I realized this was the subtlest delusion by picking up the Buddhadharma, understanding it, then truly experiencing how truly transcendent/eminent it's wisdom is. But, you do have your choice Seth. I'm just offering another perspective. It's fine... do as you will. I just offer this advice, that you look more deeply into what, "will" really is. What is movement? Of all sorts, what's the propelling agent? The Buddha found that it's just dependent origination without primal cause since beginningless time. Even the big bang is an effect of a cause and is not the primal cause, and the cause of that is caused, so on and so forth add infinitum. The idea of a divine will does not scare me. In fact the opposite which I found to be true scared me way more than another could ever scare me, due to the depth of my personal experience of a "divine will" to all. Coming to Buddhism from the depth of my Advaita Vedanta practice and experience was the hardest thing and bravest thing I've ever done. That's just me though. You have your own trip. I'll follow the trip of the Buddhas. Take care.

I'm just detached.

No one is saying any of these presumptions. The Axiom of "life is suffering" in Buddhism refers to the fact that even while you enjoy "life and beauty", if you have not awakened to your own infinitude, you have no idea what's coming around the bend and if you are ignorant to what will happen to you after you die, then this is considered a subtle form of suffering deep inside the unconscious mind of the being who has not illumined the unconscious. It's a very deep understanding, not that one should not enjoy life, in fact... just the opposite, but not be ignorant of the inevitable and what's really going on behind the visible, and actually to make the invisible visible is the way to totally eradicate all levels of suffering because one is ignorant no more.

I understand what you mean by soul here... I was just thinking about this overall message too... just now in fact before I saw this post. Interesting. Thank you!

Eh, I know when someone is covering up.

No, logic is not the end all be all, but intuition left to it's own devices will just lead to subtler and subtler identifications without the recognition of emptiness or D.O. Which should be an experiential wisdom transcendent of Self/no-self, but also not a voice in your head that say's, "I am God", the "1" in all beings. That will just reabsorb you at the end of the cosmic eon and you will re-absorb blissfully but not knowing the next place that you spit out at. Buddhism covers all your experiences Seth Ananda and gives them context in the hopes that you eventually transcend even these magnificent powers. I already gave examples, like riding a bike. The intuition is deeply conditioned, to just identity in subtler and subtler paradigms. It's a recycling habit pattern governed by identification with a subtler and subtler paradigm of experience. p.s. It's so subtle that it doesn't even need a concept as a platform. It's so deep this clinging that it's at the core of your intuition. For me, alignment of energies that transcend the habit patterns of endless recycling from universe to universe is both logical and reasonable. I feel that you merely lack the right tools of study and dissection. Your path does not offer "right view". In Buddhism, Buddhahood is defined as omniscience, not succumbing to mystery. There is surrender, but only to know more deeply without experiential, or intellectual excusing.

That's amazing!! I love cats! I've had a few. That's so cute how they put their paws straight down after they get through the hoop. That's so high!! Did you see some of the other kitty features connected to that one? Thanks for that, made my girlfriend get all gitty.

I won't engage with you guys. It's been deemed fruitless by both my intuition and my logic/reason. I wish you guys well on your journeys.

My basic point is that intuition is a process, therefore it has components. The fact that two people don't intuit the same unless they are connected in that similar fashion karmically shows that intuition is subjective. Therefore it is a conditioned phenomena. Intuition is basically just unconscious processes happening beneath the conscious mind that stirs a feeling in the conscious mind without the conscious mind being aware of what's really going on underneath it. Which is why we meditate to bring the light of awareness into the sub- and un-conscious aspects of our being to make everything fully conscious. When we become aware of the components of something, we are able to manifest a language around these components to name them. In the world that language is largely "Sanskrit" which has single words that take whole paragraphs in English to explain. Chinese might have some similar completely spiritual languages in it's history as well. Though Sanskrit also can be applied in a practical sense as well, not just mystical. Much like of course Pali which is derived from Sanskrit.

I was speaking of Taoism. It doesn't bother me that you are offended, as you always get a little restless in your chair when you read such things from me. You should question more deeply the causes of this restlessness You start getting insulting, etc.

The rational description is not the experience of a rational minded intuition. Just like in martial arts, at first it's contrived, then it's part of the natural response system, much like riding a bike or driving a car. We've acquired our human intuition over lifetimes of conditioning and each individual has their own particular so called "gifts", which is really just lifetimes of conditioning through many different types of incarnations. The de-conditioning process and constant actualization of living in the "truth" is a process of breaking free from confining habit patterns and aligning through reasoning and meditative training. For a Buddhist it specially has nothing to do with realizing a subtle will of all, or essence of things. Though yes, there is energy as a result of realizing emptiness as all the conditions from endless lifetimes learn to align with the truth of dependent origination/emptiness on a universal scale beyond thought. But without the condition of both thought, logic and reason, this process of realization is not possible to the fullest extent. You cannot just emote your way to realization according to Buddhist understanding of enlightenment. Intuition needs to be tempered with logic and reason and vice versa. Meditation is a process of uncovering conditioned intuition and logic and reason is the process of deepening the minds perception of what's going on within. Logic and reason is not merely it's description through language. Not at all. It's deep, subtle and fast.

People are thinking that intuition transcends logic, or that logic transcends intuition? Both temper each other and should act in union as a seamless whole. Actually, ones logic should be so subtle that it is actually intuitive. This idea of intuition is strange as well, for some it's more like believing in natural animal cravings and fears as intuition. GIH is right, intuition is a conditioned phenomena, just like I am. Unless intuition is reflective of the highest truth which takes logic to temper, it's still merely just bondage in the disguise of an inner natural response system. Only a being who is liberated from self has a truly aligned intuition, otherwise it is merely subtle habit patterns at work. Intuition must be trained as well as our logic. They should be as one within a person.

I do agree. The ambiguity is unappealing and I find that those that enjoy it are also not clear about what the path is and what liberation actually is. It's like hiding behind a mystery due to fear of clarity, because it takes open honesty to work through to utter clarity.