Vajrahridaya

The Buddha talks about this type of circumstance. It's beneficial for the person who was about to do the hurting, it's beneficial for you and it's beneficial for the person who was going to get hurt. The Buddha talks about how in a past life he was on a boat and he found out that one person on the boat was going to kill everyone on the boat, so he threw this person over board. He said that this was good for the person so that he didn't get the negative karmas from killing lots of people and the people didn't get the results of negative karmas because of the fact that the would be assassin was thrown overboard. Both the would be killer and the would be victims were spared the karma of the act. Since the Buddha was the person who tossed the guy over board actually did an act from the intention of benefit for everyone concerned, it was an act of merit. So, this type of circumstance is discussed in Buddhist thought. It's actually a very deep, and complex subject. All your wrong conclusions actually arise from a lack of study. You should study Abhidharma and find out how deeply complex Buddhist metaphysics is. Hell in Buddhism is a state of mind, it's not a punishment, it's just a realm that manifests for a being that reflects the persons state of mind, and it manifests in co-relation and in co-origination with other beings of similar mind types. So, the universe does not punish people, we just reap the fruit of our actions and intentions, the state of our mind manifests our actions and the reactions follow in accordance to the actions, but it's complicated. Much more so than is possible to really put forth through words. The teachings and meditating on the teachings should lead to an intuitive realization of the nature of karma and it's subtle complexities. To a demonic minded person, hell might be where they want to be, hell is just a term, it's not an absolute, it's relative. It's just that for a person who is after inner peace and compassion would consider a realm where beings compete against each other and constantly put each other down, fight, express power through anger, lie to each other, steel from each other and kill each other at whim would be considered hell. Buddhism is a path to the pacification of these types of attitudes, so a demon realm is called hell because of this. A demon would just call hell, home. Or the projects in the South Bronx. Not that everyone who lives in the projects in the South Bronx is demon minded, but.. it's just an example. Yes, this is considered a misuse. But, if that's the only way to get a beginner to start putting forth the right efforts to change their actions from destructive to constructive, then eventually to the realization that doing good is it's own reward. One could say that this fear tactic is a kind of spiritual teaching for the more "heavy" type of people, until they gain enough merit from right action to experience a lighter state of mind as a result. Rabia a Sufi saint from India from the 8th century once was seen walking through the street of her town carrying a torch and a bucket of water during one of the times when the whole town was praying. She caused a commotion and everyone stopped praying and she got everyones attention and said, "I'm carrying this bucket of water to put out the fire of hell and I'm carrying this torch to burn down the pillars of heaven, so that you people will stop praying out of the fear of the punishment of hell and desire for the pleasures of heaven, and pray for the love of God alone for it's own sake." Of course in Buddhism, we don't worship a God, but we learn to see interdependence and act in accordance with this virtue for it's own sake, not out of fear of hell or the desire for heaven. Buddhism is from the very beginning a path that talks about transcending such desires or fears. Of course, everyone has their needs and capacity, so if a person needs some fear to get some good actions on their side, it would probably be better than not doing good at all. Every mind stream has to make it's own progress in it's own time, through it's own path. Take care. Well I considered this. I made a point concerning that in my post. We consider it hard for a mind stream to manifest in a body that has the brain capacity to contemplate it's own nature. There are way more sentient beings without the capacity to contemplate self, than there are those that can. So yes, we consider the attainment of the human body to be important, for the sake of our own liberation and the for the sake of influencing other humans towards the same. Those that think it's better to be an animal I think don't know any better and don't understand how much restlessness animals suffer from within, even when they aren't physically moving, their hyper senses are constantly picking up information that they don't really have the power to contemplate with the acknowledgement of Buddhanature.

No, we don't see the universe as one great mind like the human mind in a bigger form. We are probably the only religion that doesn't do that, well and maybe Taoism doesn't do that, but as far as I can tell Buddhism is the only one that clearly does not do this. Well, I guess Samkhya is also not Theistic, but that's not really practiced anywhere anymore as it's elements have become what is now Vedanta and Shaivism really. We also only think humans are special because we are the only ones on Earth that have the ability to self transcend and create a tradition of methods for the sake of self transcendence and to directly experience the nature of phenomena beyond concept. Any sentient being who has the capacity for Buddhahood would be considered a beneficial karmic circumstance for any mind stream. It doesn't have to be human, but on Earth we seem to be the only ones that can do this. We can transcend environment or create a hospitable environment to sustain our life within any environment, from under the ocean to the Arctic. We can transcend conditioning even while appearing to be bound by them through the power of our mind and imagination. The Universe is not one big mind though, there is no such mind upon deeper investigation, it's only an experience that arises due to causes and conditions inherent in the universes processes.

Well that's good. I think.

I was talking to Kate. She sometimes makes a comment after someone without quoting who she's commenting to. Maybe she's talking to you though? I don't know. It's nice to know if someone is getting something. What past life would that be by the way Drew? Out of curiosity. The stork or the Dinosaur?

I know... because I generally do.

Indeed! One of my Vajrayana teachers, Lappon Namdrol is becoming a doctor in Tibetan Medicine. He invited me to study with him as his student/helper. I still want to take him up on the offer, but I have to do my thing here first before I transfer to a school near him in Massachusetts. I don't know where he is in Florida though.

Thanks Mudlark, LOL! It's gorgeous here in Florida. A very nice night indeed. Cool breeze with the window open. Yes! The Tibetans use a different type of Yoga, Yantra Yoga or Turl Khor Wiki Link on Turl Khor The Tibetan Medical system uses the chakras and meridians too. Also the Tibetan Massage system called Kunye, sometimes it's written kanye. They use the pressure points and meridians, it's very interesting.

Who, me?

Do I have to tell you again? This will be the last time... I wrote that after you structured a mis-definition of the entirety of my posts here at Tao Bums, then quoted them, putting my name next to them. You made that quote up in it's entirety.. Here it is... So, I wrote what I said with good cause. I don't take it back. You were seeing what I wrote with brown colored glasses and you misquoted me entirely, saying that I teach that people who don't believe what I believe go to hell. That's just wrong. If you can't see how wrong that is. I really have nothing more to say.

Have fun!

I agree, we are mostly going to be talking about mainstream though, not the mystics, gnostics, or the commentaries by the great saints of the Eastern Orthodox or Desert Fathers. We are mostly going to be talking about how the Bible is understood from a majority standpoint, not those that actually use the statements as deep metaphors for contemplation that mirror some of the Eastern Wisdom traditions. Most people who grow up Christian in the West aren't influenced by the good spiritual stuff. Awesome!! No, not if it doesn't apply. Though the person you picked as your Avatar is someone who would be considered as suffering from this disorder. Not the actor but the character, The Joker.

I was using it as an example and I meant Dissocial personality disorder. Disassociated personality disorder would be more like multiple personalities that are not associated with each other manifesting through one person. From wiki:

For me that complexity is explained by dependent origination and the law of karma. Karma is not linear. The Buddha explains that in the Pali Suttas how non-linear it is, which is why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people so to speak, though it's all perspective as well, as Dwai said, one can take it as punishment, or as a liberating factor. Being good in this lifetime doesn't necessarily lead to a fruitful next life, he has said that if you are human and able to delve into your unconscious, that you should do so while you are sure you have the capacity and weed out all the nuances of your own neurosis. The chain of causes and conditions are deeply complex and are constantly changing.

Yes they are, so you're not going to break the laws in a certain country simply because you can do it in this country, that would lead to the result of jail. It's not so much as good and evil, it's beneficial and non-beneficial. You are not born with a tag on you that warns you about the consequences of thoughts and actions. You learn this over time. Yes, virtue is relative, but there are some absolutes. Basically, don't act out of rage and utter selfishness, and if it hurts someone else in the long or short of it, don't do it. If you experience compassion within, then your actions are naturally going to follow suit. Of course you will know according to the information you have collected. Like one person experiences compassion and gives the homeless man some money, but the other person knows that giving that person money will only lead him to dependence and knows that he will just spend it on drugs. So, out of compassion he does not give the man money. Both are compassionate but one is wiser than the other. We are conditioned by karma until we realize emptiness, then our choices have a wider and wider range of information and we are not so conditioned by habit patterns or insecurities. We feel more secure within, the peace, calm and sense of freedom, so we don't act in needy ways. We are free from karma even while karma is happening, only if we've realized the condition of emptiness, that nothing has any intrinsic nature. We start responding from a space of seeing interconnectivity, so we don't act in way's that harm on a grand scale, Though individually it's quite complicated, and cultural. But, there are some absolutes, don't murder for instance is one, don't sell illegal weapons, such things. If you don't know the difference between good and evil for yourself, in your own culture, then you might want to get that checked out. Sociopaths don't understand these differences or those with Dissocial Personality Disorder. Even a kid knows that hurting someone else is not beneficial. I agree that if Bill's intentions are not honorable, though I don't know exactly what's going on in his mind. No amount of giving away of what is pennies to the dollar for him is going to help him. If he actually experiences compassion from within, that can help.

Dependent origination can be realized as the absolute answer with no absolute truth's other than causation and emptiness. Your opinion about our opinions originates dependent upon causes and conditions, as in you've been conditioned to think this way, it's your karmic vision. Your idea that karma does not explain how things happen is caused by conditions of influence and your interpretations which are caused by more past influences and interpretations of influences. Not really, that's not the conclusion that one should have when reading about Karma. Because we all influence each other, so we actually co-create. As we influence each other in way's that conditions our actions and intentions, thus influencing others even more. It's not solipsism, it's co-creationism. But, through recognizing my part in it, I can make steps to be a better influence for myself and others. I can change the way I interpret circumstances outside of my control and change a negative habit pattern into something virtuous. But, at the same time, I enter that circumstance that is now beyond my control because of what I did in a previous moment that was in my control. I made the choice to go there, to sit there and thus get hit in the face by that ball, but I can react and get all pissed off, throwing punches, or I can just see it as a circumstance brought together by various forms of causation leading to that effect and just go get an ice pack and not blame the batter or the pitcher or anybody per say and just take the swelling peacefully. Karma is just saying that things do not happen without causes, that is all. Just like Chaos theory say's that upon appearance, circumstances seem to be random, coming from all directions, but if you look more closely a pattern appears, a deeply complex one. That's karma.

I said "seems simplistic" because you don't offer an alternative view. You just make broad over-simplified generalizations in every thread that mentions something religious. I ask you questions and you answer none of them. Thread after thread, you make negative generalization after generalization with very little fortitude. You condescend religious people all the time, you condescend the Dalai Lama. You've condescended me, over and over and over again. Not much for a conversationalist are you? You haven't read Rinpoche's books, so you don't even know what Rinpoche teaches yet you claim to be his student? You want to have opinions about my writing style and you want me to listen to you as if I should think you know what you're talking about? Morality is relative. It always depends upon the situation and the intention of the person. Virtue leads to higher rebirth and non-virtue, like stealing, murder... you know the selfish stuff, leads to future births of suffering because the action and intention arises from suffering. Those actions and intentions that arise from peace, love, compassion lead to that result. You sow seeds of thorn bushes, you are not going to get juicy mangos. I don't think you are seeing the teachings from their intended vast view point. You are reducing but the law of karma is not like that. It's deeply complex. Chaos? Effects without causes? I don't see that as being helpful, or reflective of reality.

That's pretty good, I like that!

Actually in the 31 planes model from the Pali cannon, they are called formless heavens, abodes of the formless gods. So yes, they are considered heavens. Liberation from unconscious rebirth is considered transcending heaven and hell. Our goal is not heaven. So, we consider heaven to be a part of the cyclical existence. So again, you are assuming things that are not there. I've quoted from the Pali discourse on the 31 planes many times in the past. So, I see your asserted defining of my posts to be without merit, and merely your projection. I'm calling it as I see it, it's true, you are reading a meaning into my posts that are not in line with my intention. So, I say you are projecting and mis-quoting me, and this is insulting, saying that I say in quotes, "You will go to hell"... is actually you getting bent out of shape. It's a fact, you are bending this out of shape to fit and support your emotional feeling towards me. But it is here, because you are asserting positions and conclusions concerning my posts that don't actually reveal that you have read my posts. You've merely read your own mis-construction of meaning into my posts. The formless abodes are considered heavens in Buddhist thought. Your continuous mis-comprehension of my posts are funny, the way you read things into them that are not intended. I was pointing out the fact. It's true. You were reading your own mis-constructions of meaning into my posts. I thought I'd use the metaphor of rose colored glasses in an attempt for the opposite intent by replacing rose colored with brown colored. For me, it does say something about your psychology that you would read such an extreme interpretation into my posts. Then put my name next to it, with quotes around your mis-construction of meaning. Take care. Indeed... seems quite spiteful to follow me around and mis-construe everything I say and call it a fact. Of course, it gives me the opportunity to correct your mis-assumption at every corner. So, maybe it's a blessing.

You called me incomprehensible, and all sorts of things, following me around and not having a discussion, you were just here to put down my writing. Finally I called you a moron, because other people can make sense of what I write, but you cannot and you found it justifiable to follow me around and insult my writing over and over again. When I asked you not to, to leave me alone, you took it upon yourself to continue to badger me. over and over and over. Yes, you did insult me. You can live in your world and think you are oh so pure in your handling, but you were not. I ask you to leave me be and that I don't trust your opinion so it makes no difference. I see your interpretation of things to be highly flawed. So, of course I'm not going to trust your critique of my writings.

Actually this is something that every Buddhist does, is take refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha, or the triple jewel. It is considered the life line for Buddhists. But, that doesn't mean that all other beings are damned. Everyone will reap the fruits of their efforts. Even someone who takes refuge, but does not follow the dharma and only pays lip service will only reap the fruits of their efforts. When we Buddhists take refuge in the Buddha, we are basically taking refuge in the faith that we can become just like the Buddha, so it's not that he saves us in the magical sense that Christianity poses that Christ is the son of God and that we are to worship him but we will never be like him. We understand that when we focus on the Buddha and all his virtues that our mind becomes like that of the Buddha, like that which we focus upon. Of course this happens for real Christians as well, as many of the autobiographies of the saints talk about if you read them they talk about becoming one with Christ. Anyway, we more like realize that same potential within ourselves and actualize it by keeping the company of those that are like minded and follow the same path to the same goal as us, so this is inspiring and keeps our mind focused in the right direction. We also read the teachings of the Buddha which is a whole assortment of methodology for how to become a Buddha ourselves. It's not a doctrine of blind faith, or metaphors, like the NT which is very, very short compared to the teachings of the Buddha. We realize that we are not punished in any way, but we just reap the fruits of our actions, which is interesting because Jesus say's this in the Bible, that we reap what we sow. We just don't blame anybody, not even God for our existence. We see that we are reaping the fruit of our own past lives in this life, not as punishment, as karma is not good or bad as Dwai say's, but is merely action and reaction, cause and effect. For instance, it could be good for someone to go to jail after committing a crime, because if not, that person might continue to commit the crime, making more bad karma and that person might not be given a chance to think about the consequences of their actions. So, it's all perspective, as it doesn't have to be seen as punishment, but rather a time to contemplate and re-direct ones mind and focus in life, then when they get out of jail, they have an entirely different state of mind and their life takes on a new direction. It's really perspective and understanding really. Nothing is as it seems and what things seem to be is generally how we are making them seem through our own conception. Depends on your perspective. I was born with the karma of having a yogically inclined mother, so this was a great help for me in my life. At the same time I grew up quite poor so I didn't have many of the monetary advantages. So, both are due to the response of past lives. Your view only works if one were to think one was just born. I know that I was born many, many times in different circumstances. I was never really born per say, I just go through different manifestations of the cause and effect chain. To me, it seems that you have decided to look at it in this way, so you experience the information in that way. But, I don't see it like this at all. I don't find this perspective very helpful. It doesn't answer why bad things happen to good people and why good people sometimes do bad things. Why good things happen to bad people, and why people are born in the situations they are born into. If you want to accept chaotic nihilism, that's your choice. I don't find this helpful at all. Nor do I find this the truth through both introspection and consideration of life as a whole, I see that everyone reaps what they sow in a complicated manor. Rinpoche talks about this, how a circumstance can leave seeds of primary conditions that don't come to fruition until the appropriate secondary conditions are ripe for the primary condition to manifest it's fruit. Tainted existence is merely a perspective. Yes, there are positive and negative polarities, there is night and day, yes our body can get hurt or feel pleasure, it's a paradox. We are born into this world due to causes and conditions. If you see things as inherently liberated, that's on a deeper dimension of vision through Rigpa. But, this is merely the non-dual vision, that does not take away the facts of duality. From a certain perspective Ralis... if your body is so pure, why does it get hurt? There are realms that you can take birth in where your body cannot get hurt, where you can manifest your thoughts desire instantaneously without having to put forth the work and effort that you have to in this realm. If you have no taints in your body or mind karma, why are you born in this realm? Why do you suffer? Your teacher believes in karma and see's that yes, for the most part, we are born with dualistic vision, because we are reaping the fruits of past lives. How do you see this teaching? It seems to me that you are interpreting things in very simplistic black and white ways. Your not seeing the grey.

Ralis, How do things happen? Why are you born in the body that you are born in? Why do you undergo the circumstances that happen to you in your early childhood that you have no choice in considering or changing at the time? Of course if you don't believe in past lives, or have no past life experience. If your memory only starts with this life, then you might find it hard to see the Buddhas model of karma. That through your past life actions, this life has come into play as an effect of those causes might seem like pushing logic. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has said that you have come into contact with him due to past karmas. Your own teacher is a believer in karma. How do you explain this?

Only after someone has ad hom'd me Ralis. I'll say something like, look your getting angry for no reason, or you are projecting and mis reading what I'm saying, let me clarity, or something like this. Maybe I should just say, "Let me clarify." But when people jump to conclusions about you faster than hurdle jumpers in the Olympics over and over again. I suppose I need to exercise more egolessness. As far as I've seen Tao99 made up an ad hom and put quotes around it. He also quotes things that I have said after the fact that someone attacked me because they got defensive and took it personal that I was talking about Buddhism vs. Monism.

I don't say these things because you are sitting there peacefully. I say these things because you are getting bent out of shape and are following me around spitefully. I don't say these without cause. I am not the initiator in fact. Take a look in the mirror. I do talk the point, it's you who started with this whole; V says your going to go to a Buddhist hell if you don't believe him, bit. This is you getting bent out of shape and subjectively quoting me in a way that is totally mis-leading. Amazing that you think this is justified. It's one thing to say... "Hey V, is this what you are saying? Can you clear this up for me please because this is how I'm interpreting your words." But it's another thing to say, "V says your going to hell".

LOL! Well... I came back with a little bit of clarity to offer. Had some last minute business emails that came through so had to stay up dealing with those which woke me up a bit. Plus Alana woke up asking for her Mommy, so I have to play Mommy right now. Thank you! C YA!

It's not that there is nobody there, it's that you are relative and not absolute. Down to Earth is not an absolute, it's relative, dependent upon level of direct experience. Do what you want, but I'm not a fan of using this phrase as a way to limit perception or as a mental dogma, because it's a vague phrase. What does that mean? What is the Earth? A scientist see's something different from the Archeologist, just as the actor will see something different from the Zoo keeper.