Vajrahridaya

It should be understood by how I contextualize it. Why be so static? I am using the conventional term in an unconventional way without destroying it's conventional meaning entirely, but it makes sense. Follow me on it, you won't be disappointed. How is awareness not a product of consciousness? How am I wrong?

Oh ok... never mind then. Your view is not Shentong. My bad.

It's far from junk. It's the language that was used to elaborate upon various forms of insight into nature through the Buddhist tradition that is far more nuanced than English. English can be hobbling, unless it's reworked. This is what scholars of Sanskrit have a tendency to do, rework English words to more closely reflect a more nuanced language such as Sanskrit for the sake of transmitting the meaning of various spiritual insights into the nature of consciousness and matter. Sanskrit is not perfect, but is a far better language to utilize than English for this, honestly. So, if one can utilize English in a way that more closely reflects Sanskrit, that's a plus.

Your position seems Shentong to me. You seem to consider awareness to be a transcendent ultimate. Also, I am using English words, I was just showing you where I got my definition of awareness from, which is just good scholarship. I feel that I'm right and that you are wrong. That's ok, right? Or will you burn me in hell!?

Actually no. My view of Hinduism is valid according to hindu "shruti". I've studied a lot and meditated a lot on the meanings. I've read a lot of autobiographies of traditional Hindu masters, maybe even more than you. I've also experienced initiation into Kundalini Tantra from a Master of Kundalini Shakti within that tradition. I've read the Maharamayana, otherwise known as Vasisthas Yoga as translated by Venkatesananda, amongst many of his other books including many of his translations of shruti, and he was a wonderful being, a dear friend of one of my main hindu teachers teacher. The Vasistha's yoga is one of the largest books in the world in it's original sanskrit. Anyway, it gives all the valid points within Hindu philosophy from Vedic to Trika Shaivism. Also, plenty of great Buddhist scholars of India were scholars and yogis in Hinduism first, both common and mystical forms before becoming Buddhist, and they deconstructed it very, very thoroughly. This list does include Nagarjuna. Not to mention the Buddha as well. There are plenty on this list of the 84 Mahasiddhas that are pryer and post Shankaras Advaita Vedanta that talk about Vedanta as an elaboration on how to become a god in a long lived realm or formless bliss realm, but not complete Buddhahood. I've read all the Upanishads, most all the Puranas, plenty of the Vedas, autobiographies and biographies from or of hindu siddhas. I've read lots of Shankaras works, Jnaneshwars works. The list is pretty exhuastive from north to south indian versions of Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta, even to the Siddhars of Tamil Nadhu. Experientially, I know what the endgame is of Hinduism as well as the realizations which it's cosmology reflects. Direct insight into dependent origination cuts through and empties all of it as an authority on Buddhahood. All that I listed above on Hinduism and plenty more that I've read with avid attention to detail is an authority for becoming a living "god" though, both on Earth and beyond until the end of a cosmic aeon when lord Shiva or the power of re-absorption, obliterates all the hindu siddha realms, including Siddhaloka reverting all the energies surrounding that paradigm into a pralaya. This is all in your Hindu scriptures. p.s. So what if I don't believe your tradition to be complete? This is an open board. Would you not debate with someone who came in here and thought that his idea of the Bible rationalizing his affiliation with the KKK was complete? Of course your view is not that extreme, but why not be here and challenge different views? My views are challenged all the time. It's fine, it gives me a chance to clarify, to elaborate more, both for my sake and the sake of others that are interested. Those that are not, and like your view better, will go for that, regardless of what I say. That's just the way it is. My view of Hinduism and the conditions of limitation it sets on it's Siddhas is not merely my own, it's backed by countless scholars and Buddhist adepts of antiquity. It's not some made up thing.

I think it works better for translating Buddhist terminology. It's actually not my personal definition. It's more in line with the original sanskrit and pali. There's vijnana which means consciousness. There's chitta, which means mind. There's smrti, which means mindfullness or also translated as awareness. Mindfulness (Pali: sati, Sanskrit: smṛti; also translated as awareness) is a spiritual faculty (indriya) that is considered to be of great importance in the path to enlightenment according to the teaching of the Buddha. It is one of the seven factors of enlightenment. "Correct" or "right" mindfulness (Pali: sammā-sati, Sanskrit samyak-smṛti) is the seventh element of the noble eightfold path. Just because you have chitta and vijnana, doesn't mean you have smrti. Of course if you get into Vedanta, Chit means cosmic consciousness. Chitta is individuated consciousness, but that psychology doesn't give credence to pratityasamutpada and see's chit as self arising into chitta. It seems that this is what you guys are saying.

Yes, awareness is consciousness' substance of insight. Dependently originated, but empty of inherent existence. Awareness can cut through itself due to insight into dependent origination/emptiness and be free from itself "as self awareness" while still being aware.

Right, consciousness arises due to the fermentation of the elements, the 12 links, but awareness as a product of consciousness arises in ascending gradients due to insight.

Well, I hope it bids you to practice more and have the experiences written about by the great beings in their Autobiographies. Some things I think cannot just be left to logic and reason, as it'll reflect limits in experience naturally. So, transcend these limits and see what seems logical or reasonable then as opposed to prier the experience.

Yes it does. Awareness is a product of consciousness, just because you are conscious doesn't mean you are aware. Awareness deepens and expands, then finally "cuts through", as insight into the nature of consciousness and matter is cognized directly.

Yes, but because awareness is formless and can envelop an object, due to it's emptiness, both due to the emptiness of objects and awareness, doesn't mean the objects are empty, but awareness is not. Awareness experiences empty objects of awareness and can experience itself as an empty object of awareness as well.

No, not when you realize that the elemental radiance's are empty, like awareness, then your awareness can cut through them, as well as itself and have insight beyond being a self. Like I said, awareness is the ultimate source of liberation, but not the ultimate source of all things outside of your personal interpretation of stuff, even that is dependently originated as well and not self caused. It's a "click" that I'm having when I say this that is referencing an experience beyond words, but I can also see that "non-click" happen when reading what I'm writing and understand why it wouldn't make sense if you didn't have that button yet to click. It's very subtle, this insight. You'll have to go there, as your logic is reflecting what you know to be true thus far through your contemplations and experience. Give a different view a chance.

So, when you are aware of a tree, it's because the tree itself is awareness? So, all is just one awareness? I used to think that, then I had an insight that is deeper, for me it brought more clarity as to the how's and the why's on very subtle levels that are too numerous to write down. I'm just saying, what you think may not make sense now, might make sense later on. Or not. It's not a bad view to have, the shentong view. On this level, really it's neither shentong or prasangika madhyamika. It's the middle way, but it's not all one awareness. It's awareness' connected through emptiness and the radiance's of the elements. You're looking at it from a top down theorem I think. If it helps, think of Buddhism as a more sideways theorem without beginning nor end, no point where one can say... "this is it, It's all awareness as ultimate!" Awareness is the ultimate source of liberation, but it's not the ultimate source of all things as a rooftop, it's an interplay, all empty. Sideways, not top down. Cut threw the cosmos, don't just expand in it.

Right, in those states, it's important to recognize the "all good" because all things are connected, there is no inherent evil. Inherent evil as opposed to what? When all things are connected, all minds, all phenomena is just arising connected in space, where can one find inherent evil anywhere? You cannot, as evil is the idea of opposition and it's important to realize that there is no opposition, it's just intermingling play within space, a play of light and shadow without any real separation, just a play one.

If awareness does not originate dependently, then it's independent and self arisen, thus this is shentong view. If you're not saying this and awareness originates dependently at the same time as all other things, is empty of inherent existence, then this is madhyamaka.

You can experience what is not awareness through awareness, as it's naturally cognizant. Like I said, how this is done, you will have to know for yourself, as your line of logic is being used as a defense mechanism in order to maintain this ultimate idea about awareness.

It's just a metaphor.

You'd have to experience this for yourself. I used to ultimate awareness in the same line of logic you are using. You can look at your mom, and know that you are not your mom, but you did come from your mom.

Also, when you have these experiences, I think it's very important to recognize the interplay of sentient awareness' on different levels, and see directly there emptiness, and just notice it as a play, nothing serious, no real hell, no real heaven, just a play, an intermingling of radiance's, light, shadow. Nothing dense, nothing overwhelming, even the feelings that arise in the body during these trips are just play's, not serious, not inherently real, not self. This really helps. Especially when facing that, "big fear".

Norbu's Dzogchen is based on prasangika madhyamika.

It's dependently originated and empty of inherent existence. Because awareness does not have to locate itself through the body and be limited as such. You can expand awareness indefinitely when emptiness is realized, or through various states of concentration. Like I said, mind is a fermentation of the radiance's of the elements on formless levels, that are also dependently originated and simultaneous with physical level activity, except on a kind of faster, subtler level, to use words that can help point. It's simultaneous and inter-connected, not one but not inherently separate either. So, awareness can be aware and even merge with an element and experience conscious awareness as an element, like being rain, or being earth, or being wind. It's very strange having these experiences when awareness is usually located in the body, but when you realize formless levels, it can intermingle with the formless levels of the elements in a different non-physical way, realizing non-locality of both elemental radiance's and consciousness. Instead of merely intermingling with each other on a dense form level, they can intermingle on a formless level free from physical entrapment. This is not enlightenment either as to make this a Self one gets stuck as a disembodied being without the ability to hear dharma teachings. But, it's these experiences that help one understand the mind and how things work on a subtler than 5 sense level. I don't know if endless talking about it is going to help. It's very hard to describe these experiences, or the impressions I have in my mind relating to the memory of the experience of formless realm mental activity. You can read about it in various Autobiographies of Vajrayana masters though. To look for either oneness or separation is not really getting the point. "Are they definitely one?" No. "Are they definitely separate?" No.

Yes, I did a peruvian circle in Massachusetts with Peyote and experienced all sorts of great light body type stuff. I would just relax into the visions of aliens and such strange things. I've seen aliens too, but just on pot, really good Humbolt County pot. Yes, it's very slow paced, I like that but I have to be in a mood. It's not at all as cool as Blueberry. You've seen Pink Floyds, The Wall, right? Have you seen Happy Accidents? It's an interesting love story about a man who goes back in time and meets a women, but you don't know if he's just crazy or telling the truth as the movie progresses.

We generally do that anyway through attachments. But, if you want to do it simultaneously, like you and your partner know Phowa and have both mastered it, and you both feel it's time to go, you can possibly engage in karmamudra (sexual embrace with spiritual intent) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayogatantra) practices, which you'd also have to master, both get to culmination through that, and then eject out of the crown through the phowa mastership together focusing on the exact same realm as destination. We aren't the right people to ask about this I don't think as you won't master practices of Karmamudra or Phowa by talking to anyone online. You'd have to go to qualified Masters of Mahamudra and/or Dzogchen.

When experiencing deep states of the Alayavijnana, one sees that consciousness is kind of a fermentation of the elemental radiance's, there is simultaneousness though, it's a different level of time than we experience through the body, it's not like one is first, then the other. It's a continuum. This kind of formless realm stuff is hard to indicate with words, it has to be experienced directly. But, formless jhana realm experiences in meditation give one an intuitive insight into the mind that's pre-conceptual and pre the definitively formed levels of activity. They say that Rigpa is beyond mind, and they also say that it's just mind's true nature. This is the symbol for Rigpa in the Tibetan tradition: It's a general image of the state of that deep recognition. The colors represent different elemental radiance's pryer to densification in and as each moments phenomenal world, and there is the sound Ah represented by the central symbol, and the lights, it's all simultaneous. It densifies through the other sounds U and Om. Like Ahuomahuomahuomahuomahuom very fast and very subtle. Make that sound to yourself and try to feel it. At first the experience is clung to as identity, then that just empties out, called emptying the basis, and then that experience just functions through the physical apparatus as free from itself. This has to be experienced directly.

I don't know, my experience was more colorful and everything was just transparent energy and I could literally see through people and see through walls. It was nothing different from my higher yogic experiences, and not even as high. I didn't see snakes and centipedes and stuff like that. It just felt like I was working on a sub-physical-time paradigm. I was able to read peoples actions before they did them and their thoughts very clearly like flipping through multiple files very quickly. Everyone was made of rainbow colors and shadows at the same time. I probably don't have all that subconscious gunk due to years of practice before attempting that stuff. I also used to take acid before I started doing practices and quitting everything, and would work through the color spectrums and subconscious stuff then too, but most definitely had plenty of subconscious gunk and scary mental projections to deal with at the time, some 20+ years ago as a teenager. I did DMT just a few years ago. p.s. By the way, you're welcome! I like weird movies.