Vajrahridaya

So, your exclusive in thinking that all paths lead to the same destination? Sounds like Hindu absorb all-ism like the borge imperialism to me. This is also a dogma that blantantly lacks study and is rooted in ignorance. Buddha and the Vedas disagree in what the "Truth" is. Your Truth, is not my Truth. They are fundimentally different and if one understands the fundimentals, one can only agree that they differ in how they define enlightenment and in how it is experienced on a deeply subtle level.

The Buddha did say that other paths or traditions lead to higher re-birth, but not liberation from Samsara. The Buddha was a fundimentalist in as much as if one can recognize dependent origination through another tradition, then one is experiencing Buddhahood in that tradition. But, that's pretty unclear as most traditions think within the spectrum of alpha and omega and buddhist goes into beginninglessness. There is no source to existence, rather just a constant recycling of causes and conditions that are all inherently empty of any self substence, which is different from all other traditions, even metaphorically. Namdrol did also say this same thing. Not that other traditions aren't good in a sense, but that they are not complete. Interpreting Namdrol's statement about "not respecting other traditions" as some sort of hate towards other traditions is probably a bit off base. I've experienced him in person and he is not that "demon", everyone makes him out to be. People's feelings are hurt by a challenging view, and people pull statements out of context is what seems to happen. Namdrol has actually said that Hinduism is quite beautiful, but that inherently flawed in it's perspective on existence in grasping a fixed source. I respect humans, but I don't respect all their thoughts and interpretations. Or, rather, I don't think that they are all correct cognitions of existence though they are all a part of existence.

Because you find it boring shows that you haven't experienced meditation. Meditation and these "ritual's" challenge your restless mind attached to "doing" and "getting done." "I" and "mine". "I" and "feel".

I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing. Because you don't seem to really believe in anything that you say. You just like to belittle to feel better about yourself. That's different from arguing the merits of one spiritual tradition over another. You got personal in your attacks right from the very beginning, that's a sad sign. Also... yes, Namdrol is the Loppon that I'm refering to. I was learning from him as I argued with him, he obvsiously won the argument because I can concede if through contemplation of the argument, I can see directly through meditative experience how I was wrong. I was going to meet Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche due to the argument me and Namdrol had. I was not advertising for a Guru, again your way of just belittling someone. We always should want for good and highly realized teachers. Even enlightened beings like visiting other enlightened beings for a different perspective on the same realization.

Well, I am a student for 6 years of a really good scholar/yogi who knows Tibetan and is sponsored by the Sakya lineage to just sit around and translate texts. He is a Loppon... Loppon (Acharya) is the academic level of teacher. It means 'Master' and is essentially equivalent to having a Masters' Degree from a Western University. That's what you get for long-term philosophical study, at what is often called a "shedra" or even a more Western academic institution such as CIHTS. He has done the traditional 3 year meditation retreat. His knowledge runs into the entirety of Buddhism which he's made his life I think for well over 30 years now. He has debated with many well known scholars and Tibetan Masters and has lots of support and transmission from many well known Tibetan Masters. The Tibetans don't kid around when it comes to study, logic and reason. Anyway... no... I don't want to call on him, but I can just go to him for clarification and I have learned a lot from him. See ya!

How do you feel when you insult people SV? Yes, they had plenty and there are these realms, you can visit them in meditation. But, there were Buddhas before Shakyamuni Buddha who is a wheel turning Buddha who comes when the dharma is not clear anymore. You probably think this is fantasy in your materialist logic that has very little direct meditation experience. Oh I can go through the trouble of digging things up. I might... but I won't have a computer for a week or more after the next couple of hours. So, I won't be around much at all. I've studied the history and development, but haven't really been talking about that at all. Just the main point that Dependent Origination subverts any Atman or Brahman. That's it! Your the one that want's to go on about historical development. I know about Buddhisms past and present. I have no need to talk about that though. Be well.

I read some of it. It doesn't change my point at all which is exactly your point as well. I didn't really understand why that was put there? That was never really my point that Vajrayana and Hindu Tantra don't share a common ground and cross influenced each other. I'm fine with that. Just like Vajrayana influenced Bon and now Bon at this point is no different from Buddhism, really. The Cosmology is still different between Hinduism and Buddhism in very important ways that show that no, they indeed don't point to the same core Truth. ::Shrug:: I would like to quote some pages from my Buddhist cosmology book that prove my point, but it's pretty late and I'm lazy.

But dear SV, it's you that are calling people names and being the jerk. I was just claiming what the Buddha claimed. Which you should know that he did, since your so well studied. That to see D.O. is to see the Dharma. Also that Vipassana is about applying D.O. to every experience. No, it's you that have shown his true colors, even after being remarked as a jerk, you act more like a jerk. My logic is sound and I back it up with quotes. I quoted the Dalai Lama where he talks about theistic absorption paths and that Buddhayana is the only complete path to liberation. Your the one without logic. Like I said, it doesn't matter if Vajrayana is influenced by what, it's still a different view on the methods. Your view is eternalist, it's not the middle way of the Buddha. How many quotes do you need? Or do you just insult people until they are sick of arguing with you, then you declare youself the winner because they just leave you to your mighty crown of online asshole? Calling you one is probably more compassionate than anything else at this point, because you started with insults from the very beginning and didn't even argue, you just insulted. Then you throw a few points out there, quoting from some Dark Zen view points positing an essence, which is stuff that no orthodox Buddhist would accept. It's completely foolish to argue with you, because your mental dogmas keep your power to actually read what is said with any objectivity narrow. Yes, I said it, you've been an asshole the entire time I've seen you from day one. Bye.

Subjective rant. Your constant Ad-Homs are lame. Yes, we list dates and quotes at times. ?? You don't much, you mostly just insult people. Sure, sometimes. No, I say they sit too much in my opinion. Experience happens at any time with vipassana. They also seem to reify emptiness sometimes. Not all of the Zensters do this. Plenty I like and agree with. I don't agree with every Vajrayana so called Master either. Muktananda was very orthodox and a good scholar of Advaita Vedanta who spent years studying at a Shankara Math or Ashram. More baseless Ad-Hom's... Only those threatened attack. I have not seen it all, but I have seen what I have seen. Wow... you are just the Ad-Hom wizard, aren't you? "Attack, attack... must attack the person." Yes, I don't do as much sitting practice as I used to. Your kind of an asshole. Seriously. More passing of gas? p.s. I should have never spoken of my experiences. People are so insecure they just use it against you. More learning of lessons from online jerks.

Mr. Ad-Hom who knows what the class taught and who the teacher was. This kind of talk reveals more about your insecurity and pride more than how bad someone class was. It might have been a very good class with a very good teacher. Classes do ask that you study and write papers. SV, you obviously lack meditative experience.

Does no one meditate anymore and experience for oneself the truth of celestial realms and cosmic experiences transcending the 5 senses and the limitations of the physical body? There are realms of conscious experience that far transcend your limited stuck on earth projection. There is still no conclusive evidence that say's Hindu Tantra pre-dates Buddhist Tantra as they both have influenced each other as many practitioners changed from one to the other and they both arose in the same places. The dates for Vajrayana keep getting pushed back further and further. There in fact was just a new find that pushes it back to the 200's I think? Nagarjuna was supposed to be a tantric master himself. The importance is not in the methods which in many ways are very similar but in the view. The view of Buddhism differs from that of Hinduism so the outcome is different. You go ahead and think that Vajrayana is influenced by Shaiva Tantra. I've read both sides and both sides have their proofs. It doesn't really matter, what matters is that the view is different, thus the outcome is different.

New Agers smell like Gouda. Oh! Dwai was right after all, I am a jester!! No really, it is a good start to the study of spirituality because it urges one to study everything without bias. Yes, I as well used to be pretty New Agey and thought just as Dwai does, that all paths lead to one Highest Truth. It's a very Hindu dogma. But yes, I am a stuck up, tight assed orthodox Rime student of Vajrayana. Oh well.

The first Upanishad might have been written around the 500's B.C. Most likely oral since before then as it means sitting with the teacher. The 31 planes model is directly from the early school of Buddhism, oral for a few hundred years but anyway... from around the time of the Buddha in the 500 or 600's B.C. The first Puranas were written around the early centuries' C.E. though they were most likely oral since sometime in the early B.C.'s. mostly compiled by Valmiki and Vyasa. Your insults keep proving your insecurity. I already proved to you by quoting the Dalai Lama that he does not agree with you. Neither did Nagarjuna and neither did Shankaracharya. Go to E-Sangha and ask some Mahayana and Theravadin monks that frequent the community what they think of your grossly mis-informed assumptions. You will be disappointed to find that they will agree with me. My understanding of Buddhist sutra is sound. Your view is not grounded in real examination of what Buddhism teaches and is not grounded in much meditative experience. Your hate and constant insulting of me because I challenge your understanding is a constant reminder of your own pride. The story of the falling onto earth of the so called 5th Veda where Shiva chops the head off of Brahma. How about that story from the Shiva Purana, where Brahma and Vishnu were fighting over who was the supreme creator, threatening to destroy the 3 worlds, and the different gods went to Shiva and he saved the 3 worlds by becoming a column of light that dissolved the weapons of Brahma and Vishnu into pure light. Brahma rode his vehicle and tried to find the bottom of this column but could not and Vishnu tried to find the top of it by flying on his vehicle, but could not. They came back and Shiva came out of the column of light and all the gods praised Shiva as the supreme being of the cosmos. There are plenty of stories in various Puranas that talk about how Shiva and Brahma are subordinate to Vishnu and it's just all over the place. There are so many Puranas and I don't remember which one is what. But, I used to chant parts of the Skanda Purana every single day for an hour and a half as one part of my morning practice and I chanted it faithfully every day for many years including the Rudram, the Bhagavad Gita, the Vishnu Sahasranam. But I chanted parts of the Skanda Purana every single day without fail. I played Vishnu in a play of the Mahabharata. I know way more than you think about your religion. I do know this. The Buddha still didn't think the Vedas were to be regarded as a true revelation. It's in the Pali Suttas. My Hindu Guru taught me that some of the Puranas actually happened in celestial realms as well as of course the Ramayana and the Mahabharata happened here on Earth. Both of which I have read as well as other Puranas. The best path is the path that helps you evolve towards Buddhadharma, the true and complete vehicle. I side with the Dalai Lama, Nagarjuna and Sakya Pandita as well as Gotama Buddha himself who taught that teachings that appear in such vehicles as Vedanta lead only to higher re-birth but not complete liberation. This is a very prominent view in Buddhism that most every single Buddhist is aware of because it's directly from the texts in the Pali Cannon as well as later teachings in the Mahayana. It's only new agers or Dark Zen people who mis-comprehend the Buddhist teachings in the way that you do.

It's not the movie so much as the crowded theater and all the people around. I have to disagree that it's always one's own feelings. Empathic powers are a real phenomena and can be used for healing.

I can completely empathize with you. I use mantra to protect myself from other's thoughts and feelings around me. I just repeat it in layers within my body and ground through it. I stopped going to movies for a while because of this. But, I'm good now for the most part, I've acclimatized over the years. It is nice to be able to feel so deeply though, especially when it's good feelings. Huge love sobs are the best!

These are stories from scriptures. Why are you always coming across so threatened? Yes, they do at times just appear as metaphors. But these realms also do exist and there are Jealous gods. I like history. I've read many of these stories and some can just be metaphor and some can actually be real occurrences in other realms. I been to some realms, so I don't dismiss things in the same way that you do. I guess I'm crazy. You should take yourself less seriously. Your Mr. Ad-Hom because you keep attacking me personally and not really arguing the point. Also, I've read these texts at some point but don't have specifics memorized and no I have not experienced it all. But, I was speaking that I know enough to know what Hinduism teaches and how it's different from what Buddhism teaches. Great scholars back me up on this. The Dalai Lama backs me up on this and should I just name the vast amount of Buddhists that back me up on this historically and presently or are you better and more meditatively developed and educated than all these beings? Shankaracharya didn't feel that they taught the same thing either. So... I don't get why you and Dwai and Goldisheavy are having a hard time understanding this truth? Oh yes... well, I do understand why. It's ok... There are plenty of Puranas that talk about how the God's.... Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma fight with each other over who's the real creator. Different sects, Shaivite, Vaishnavites, etc. take up the Purana where their God won the battle and call it revealed scripture.

Mr. Ad-Hom, The Puranas talk about fighting Gods. Also, these are psychological archetypes as well as actual realms that can be directly experienced after death or during meditation. It's all just as real or unreal as this realm. There are so many places that a consciousness can have an experience. I guess you don't much believe in the after life either?

I just posted the 31 planes of existence. All these Theisms fit in there somewhere, depending on the depth of meditative stability, and insight. What's childish is you constantly resorting to Ad-Hom's. Which also shows how threatened you are. You've never been to celestial realms? Your meditation must be sorely lacking. Of course, your going to call my experiences imagination. Which is exactly how all without deep meditative experience protect their egos. Projection of limitation based upon one's own experiential limits.

Um, Mr. Ad-Hom... Yes, I've read the Guhyasamaja Tantra and some Highest Yoga Tantra scriptures. Thank you. I didn't know your context as you were obviously not clear. I thought you were talking about the Shankara Kulas or Ashrams which there are 4, one on each point of India. I thought you were referring to my past practice in Advaita Vedanta and Shaivism. I practice Dzogchen, so you should know that I just see all of it as Samantabhadra. It's all symbolism for how dependent origination works. Actually Vajrayana comes straight from the celestial realms of highly realized beings. Hinduism is more than likely a divine purchase from the Buddhas. Well, this is why your Hindu and I'm Buddhist. The two shall never agree. They are completely different way's of seeing how cosmos works. The 31 planes of existence were put together before the Puranas or most of the Upanishads were written in the hundreds of years B.C.

Buddhism is beyond nihilism and eternalism. Dependent origination neither posits an eternally self sustaining substance, nor does it deny relative existence. May your doubts fall away and true insight arise. Oh, she wishes to stick around forever. I have no Ishta Deva anymore though it used to be Shiva and I don't go to any Guru Kula's or Ashrams anymore because I have renounced eternalism/theism/monism. Though I might go see Amachi because it's fine to hang out with the God's as long as I don't get caught up in their ideas about reality. Good energy is good energy. I do deity yoga with Padmasambhava and I do Guru Yoga with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Sometimes I do Guru Yoga merging all Rinpoche's with Garab Dorje. But mainly I try to stay in Rigpa and see the self liberating nature of all things as Samantabhadra (the all good). Which is basically just recognizing dependent origination/emptiness and is not at all a substantial essence. Consciousness arises due to causes and conditions as well, but de-compounds when it's dependently originated nature is realized, thus it shines all around, experientially free and liberated even from itself. There is nothing that things arise from and pass away into, that's why things are inherently liberated, because there is no self essence behind anything. "Because this arises, that arises" in an endless and beginningless chain.

'Honestly... compassionately.. poor fool. Get humble hamburger.

seemingly I am here it only seams to be co-arising thus

To many high flying jets... can't... get... off... the.... groooooouuuuund! Darn it... where's my proverbial lasso!