Vajrahridaya

We'll you could be just speaking to your own mind's true nature and causing a dualistic split out of the nicety of devotion to... which is a great bliss. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep applying D.O.E. The sum total of all Buddhas is basically the Tathagatagarbha, which is the womb of enlightened expression. This voice could very well be a part of that if it's not arguing for supreme identity as a subsuming entity. Tathagatagarbha is just emptiness, so not an inherent substratum. Subtle stuff here... Oh boy... Dwai... Don't you see! Your whole logic revolves around reifying Zero. Emptiness is NOT zero. Zero is also empty of inherent existence and dependently originated. Your just not seeing Nagarjuna at all, nor dependent origination. Your reading Hindu conditioning into everything...

Oh man... you got me giggling! Thanks so much. My girlfriend just moved in and we've made a total mess of the place, and now we're cleaning it up and organizing... all so fun, but my body hurts. Also, only got about 6 hours sleep over the last 3 days. Whew!! You are great Seth, to even look at your deep experience objectively and scrutinize. I know how hard that can be, because your scrutinizing what gives so much security and questioning that, how great of you. Basically, your seeing your deep formless Jhana which your experiences seem to superimpose over as the ultimate ground of all being. When really, that's just your mind-stream and it's conscious, sub-conscious and unconscious (which your busy illuminating and making conscious) layers. There are beings in these higher Jhanas that have attained that state of consciousness and identify it as the absolute Truth of things. They talk to those that believe this to be true and fortify that experience. You are talking to a being who through merit from the previous universe has attained to the level of a Brahma, that is all. Your just talking really to a deep impression in your infinite mind-stream that has been the cause of your path of re-absorption and re-expression over many universal expansions and contractions that you have gone through. Please giggle!! More... I like your giggling... such lightness!!

Just like there is no entity cosmos. There is only an infinite array of interdependent objects that connect but are not one. We label it cosmos for the sake of ease. Just as that is so, there is no one mind-stream. The attachment to one's mind-stream stops when one recognizes one's 12 links directly and their corresponding emptiness. There always is infinite mind-streams according to Buddhism and never is there one mind-stream called cosmos. That's just the convenience of calling a team of players a name, but really it's a bunch of individuals with one intention. In this case, the only intention of cosmos is movement due to ignorance. A Buddha moves due to ignorance too, but just to pacify it in others. So a Buddhas enlightenment is also a condition that is dependent. Dwai, You don't understand Nagarjunas Two Truths, which Dzogchen actually transcends, there is no two truths in Dzogchen. Nagarjuna never reifies an ultimate, just like he never reifies the relative. But, both ultimate and relative are based on each other and equally empty of any self essence. Your just not making the paradigm shift in comprehension. Which is what it is. There is only the intermingling of infinite consciousness', there is not one consciousness. A Buddha attains omnipresence only be seeing dependent origination directly, but that seeing is also dependently originated. The maintaining of that awareness of dependent origination is also dependent. But, none of the above inherently exists. Thus no Buddha, no attainment... etc. But not because of a subverting oneness, but because of dependent origination and the meaning of dependent origination. Nagarjuna totally disagrees with you and Vedanta/Monism/Theism. Taoism falls under Monism. Your still reifying something that is beyond all the talk that stands alone and is real and a true existence. Never is this so in Buddhism. I find it not true in life either as Buddhism explains everything succinctly and specifically, in levels of capacity to cognize from the 1st turning to the 4th turning. Though the turnings have different tenents, they are all links in the core truth of dependent origination. There are intermingled, but not one, but they are not many either because they do not inherently exist in and of themselves. Since they don't exist in and of themselves and only dependently, neither does the endless and beginningless whole inherently exist. No ultimate being needed for this realization. There is also no ultimate awareness that all is one with. There is no such thing as human awareness, that is just a convention that is popularly excepted due to apparent habitual limitations based upon identification with what houses the 5 senses. If you meditate deeper you will find that awareness is just awareness and is not confined to being human. You can enter into many different dimensions of awareness experience, if you went deeper in meditation. The stories of going to heavens, going to other planets, realms, changing form expression, even floating, supernatural powers, are all true. Your limiting your self experience by the condition of what you remember experiencing up to this point. Buddhahood is reaching the level of no more need for knowledge about how this infinitude works. The summit of the contemplative path is reached, the end of the longing to know more has ended. The end of psychological suffering has been reached. At this point there is just the expression of virtue through maybe non-conventional or conventional ways for the sake of pacifying Samsarins. A Buddha who is an alien with an alien capacity houses the wisdom differently, but the wisdom is the same. Wisdom is not an existing essence, it's a realization. Yes, I realize it's an all one paradigm. But Vedanta considers all mind streams to be one mindstream always, just expressed differently. Buddha doesn't agree and considers this a Samsaric interpretation of meditative experience. I explained many times how this happens for a Vedantin in their mis-understanding the experience of the Jhanas. The core truths are different. Buddhism understands differences, but is not attached to them other than conventional need to pacify Samsarins, that's it's only motive, even though it sees that Samsarins don't inherently exist so doesn't cause wars over it, just debates. It has the most peaceful religious history of any religion in the world, the adherents are not perfect, because only the rare Buddhist is an Arhat, Bodhisattva or much less a Buddha.

Exactly. D.O. is beginning-less and endless! In Buddhism, the formless void experience or any of the formless experiences in meditation is considered a formless form and is part of D.O.

The mere view of Dependent Origination as described by the Buddha never reifies any absolutes, beyond concept, or not. There's no absolute non-concept. Vedanta does believe that there is a subtle something that the Jiva superimposes over. Which to the Buddha, was described as a mis-identification with one of the formless Jhanas. Vedanta and different absorption paths talk like this. One meditates and gets to supreme consciousness through "neti-neti", then one meditates deeper and gets beyond supreme consciousness, then one meditates deeper and gets beyond even that. This is all elaborated in the Pali Suttas as the the four levels of the formless Jhanas/ sanskrit=Dhyana. Dimension of infinite space. Dimension of infinite consciousness. Dimension of nothingness. Dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, or the Jhana of beyond being and non-being. He said considering any of these beyond concept experiences as absolute and the true identity of all things was a trap. When one comes out of these meditations, it seems as if the subconscious, subtle realms, the mind, it's perceptions, memories, past lives, etc. are superimposed over this non-conceptual realization. Thus the Hindu texts all revolve around this experience. They integrate the wonderful bliss of these formless states with the superimposed form, calling it all one, thus non-dual. Buddhists non-duality has a different cause and different experience as well. This of course, is very subtle stuff. It's because of D.O. that infinite and unique mind streams from formless to form that are all equally empty is possible. Emptiness is not a ground of being, as you said, the emptiness of emptiness. But, rather emptiness is a way of describing how each dependent thing and non-thing as in these formless seemingly concept free states are each empty of self existence and are co-dependent with the rest of the ALL. Each thing is unique, but co-dependent and thus also each things emptiness is it's unique emptiness. There is not some grand emptiness that all things flow through. Rather things just flow, because they are individually empty and interdependent with the rest of the ALL So, when consciousness, which is part of the 12 chains of D.O. see's the emptiness directly of each individual element of D.O. it unconditions and turns the experience of Samsara into Nirvana, yet D.O. never stops and never began, it's endless and beginning-less! As the Buddha said, the All is dependent origination, there is not a beyond dependent origination that is outside of the all, he said that would be an empty boat. Rather because the all is dependent origination that the state of realization and freedom from proliferation is possible, so dependent origination as elucidated by the Buddha is the supreme transcendent/eminent. It goes beyond itself by being what it all is. There's no Nirvana beyond, Samsara is Nirvana by seeing and cutting through, that's it. To the Buddha, Brahman is a Samsaric experience, a delusional interpretation of meditative absorption. No, he was recorded as saying his tradition was unique and different. Of course, one should experience them directly. But he did... because he wanted people to attain liberation. That's also why Brahmin's didn't like him and people tried to kill him and what not, he threatened the old way's by preaching for 40 years all over the place. He set out to create a religion and convert people. He was a missionary. That was his whole reason for coming here. To create a movement for the sake of liberating beings. A non-violent movement of course, he persuaded through presence, action and word. Body, voice and mind. You should read the Pali Cannon. It's mostly filled with him rebuking other traditions. He say's again and again, "Oh Monks", a Brahmin believed this, so I said that, "Oh Monks", a Jain believed this, so I said that. He even preaches to Gods and all sorts of people all over the earliest records of the Buddhas stay here on earth. But... see ya round the bend cosmic companion!

that's the thing, dependent origination is the threaded screw that keeps one's blissful state in place. Because the blissful liberation is not based on an eternal identity, it's based on seeing dependent origination which is defined uniquely in Buddhism and found no where else. In other traditions, a beyond concept ground that permeates everything equally in a non-dual way is the beginning of a being, that the being is superimposed over as an illusional and false identity. I do disagree, the experience of states called liberation by the different traditions are different. If this was not so, then the Buddha would not have said that his path was unique from other paths. But he did say this. We are all free to have our opinion of course, but this is a discussion board. It's not an opinion that the Buddha was recorded as having said thus. Though, one can think that the recording was wrong, which seems to be many peoples argument here. But the experience can be found within.

Ok... that's where Advaita leads to an entirely different realization than Buddhism. So there you have it... you are not correct in thinking that the Buddha taught the same goal as Vedanta. Also... it's not sheer stupidity. The whole words cannot describe trap is as you said... "moodhata", that the ultimate truth is a concept-less ground of being is rejected by the Buddha. When a Buddhist master say's, it's beyond concepts, they are talking about D.O. NOT superimposition over a beyond concept entity. The samadhi experience is different as is the beyond concept realization. A Buddha stay's blissfully liberated beyond the end of the cosmos with an active mind stream liberated from itself. While a Theists mind-stream absorbs into a non-conceptual ground of being, that as you say, is beyond description. But see, that's it's description, that it's an "it" beyond description. Yes, not trapped in any of these conventions, but still subtly reified in the mind stream leading to dormant identity deep in the consciousness beyond concepts. The Buddha felt they were different and debated that. So did Shankaracharya. Gaudapada didn't, but he was reifying emptiness and not seeing, or teaching dependent origination. So he wasn't seeing the Buddhas teaching. The Buddha says, "When you see dependent origination, you see Buddhahood". He did not say, When you realize the non-conceptual ground of being you attain Buddhahood. The whole treatment and thus experience of awareness differs. Awareness is seen as dependently originated and not an identity or a singular supremacy of all being. Of course, dependent origination which transcends the idea of superimposition, is the non-view, view. No, even from the perspective of formlessness are there infinite mind-streams. There, is no singular source of all mind streams that is a formless, conceptual-less ground of all being according to the Buddha. The subtle difference is the difference between the edge of the cliff and the end of proliferation. The Buddha disagrees and he debated against Jain's, Brahmin's and Forest meditators who didn't understand the middle-way. Vedanta is not the middle way. They consider the concept-less state of consciousness to be absolute, beyond time and eternal in and of itself. That's NOT Buddhahood. It's a different level of experience that is not completely liberated from conditionality.

Well, regular life is different for different people. But yeah... retreat is said to be necessary!

Yes, but the retreat only show's it's light when integrated with the ups and downs of regular life.

It's true that there are many overlaps in the different spiritual traditions on this small planet... But, Buddhism has a specific that is not found anywhere else. Not all schools of Buddhism fully elucidate the proper understanding of this major unique difference that makes Buddha's teachings supreme either, due to other influences. That unique teaching and truth is dependent origination (Pratītyasamutpāda in Sanskrit or Paticcasamuppāda in Pali). Which is the complete pacification of views. Taoists almost have it, but they reify the flow of dependent origination. By calling it Tao and trying to be consciously one with it, calling it and experiencing it as supreme reality (as beyond speech or concepts as it may seem to be) creates a subtle seed of density in the mind stream that lies beyond concepts in the consciousness. This acts as an anchor. Thereby it's not the proper liberating view of dependent origination, or mutual co-arising that unbinds one from suffering eternally. It still only leads to long lived bliss realms of great spiritual power. Not bad, very good indeed and beautiful, but not total freedom from Samsara.

But you reify it. You consider it truth, the refuge and abode of all being, conceptual or non-conceptual. The real nature that all things are one with. So, it's not what Buddha means by emptiness. You ascribe reality to "that". It's all over Vedanta. Vedanta doesn't feel that there are infinitely beginningless and endless as well as separate mind streams. Vedanta feels that all beings come from Brahman. In Buddhism, there is no place all beings come from. It is a subtle difference that is very important.

Dwai, What your refusing to understand is that what you consider non-phenomenal, as in the objectless consciousness that Vedanta say's all things find refuge in and are in essence, is considered a subtle phenomena in Buddhism. Thus to ascribe any selfhood to that is delusion. The reifying of that experience saying, "this alone is true" is even considered a mis-comprehension of that state of dhyan, which is merely a formless realm, seemingly infinite and eternal, but really it's just long lasting and not final refuge from Samsaric experience. Concept-less-ness is considered a phenomena in Buddhism. To put it another way, non-phenomenal is considered co-dependent with phenomena, so thereby, empty of inherent existence. Thus, is not reality either and not the source of liberation. Any level of experience, even that beyond experiencer and experienced, all non-dual formless states of consciousness, Buddha considers unworthy of refuge. That's why the Buddha say's to take refuge in the teaching of dependent origination, and not a universal source or essence. We take refuge in the teacher, the teaching and the students of the teaching. We do not take refuge in any essence of things, or any essence of mind. Because that is so, Buddhism talks about how one maintains enlightened awareness, because there is no self-dependent essence that all is based on to rely on that is inherently eternal and self standing. That way to keep enlightened awareness eternally has everything to do with applying positive D.O. by offering merit's to the continuous ongoing flow of Samsara in specific ways only taught in the Mahayana, as the cosmos expands and contracts through endless display's of universes. Basically, all the Buddha is saying, is that Karma goes deeper than concept. Karma of bondage and Samsara goes into bliss states, oceanic experiences where one feels like they are one with the universe, states of consciousness beyond thought, etc. None of these lead to permanent unbinding from Samsara without the proper view of Dependent Origination which has been explained in the last page by Loppon Namdrol in the quote of him by Xabir where he say's basically that dependent origination is a wisdom that pacifies all views. So it's the viewless view. It's the only view that works in fact to quit Samsaric experience entirely because it's the view that transcends views, not a state of non-conceptual consciousness. In buddhahood, that state is used merely as reflection, to go birds eye view on things and self, it is a function of consciousness to be featureless, but it's not the refuge of liberation. Conceptless-ness is not a refuge and not the way to liberation according to Buddhism, it is merely a way to find clarity, to comprehend subtler paradigms directly. To the Buddha, this is still all Samsara. So, the Buddha's scrutiny and observation goes deeper than Advaita Vedanta for this reason.

From the Pali Suttas...

Seen all of them. Loved them all... and they were all quite different. Great director!!

Romantically... yes... everyone is even, as a mind practice for us too. But practically? A Buddha is defined by, awake of the fact. So... a kid has karmas to bind him/her up as he/she grows and the seed of suffering has thus not been extinguished.

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds: Nibbana (realization of D.O.) is, but not the man that enters it, The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen. No doer of the deeds is found, No one who ever reaps their fruits, Empty phenomena roll on, This view alone is right and true. No god, no Brahma, may be called, The maker of this wheel of life, Empty phenomena roll on, Dependent on conditions all." - Visuddhimagga XVI 90

Eh... personal Karma is complicated. I'm glad he's happier. Not every Tulku re-manifests in the linear fashion upon the preceding life. As the Buddha said in the Pali Suttas. One may be a high being in one life, not fully realized, but a worm in the next, because he did not fully eradicate the unconscious entities of dormant karmas while he had a chance. At least he's human and living out something of his desire. Who know's his next life?

Oh, no problem! I hope to not have to give up anything, just integrate everything with non-abiding realization. Yes, I've seen Milarepa and forgot to mention it! I'm looking forward to part two! Tis good... I mean... the acting is.. mmm, well, It's not as expressive in gesture of personalities chosen for the movie. But the story of Milarepa is there in whole as I remember.

Oh man... Loooooove Yogi's of Tibet!! I also really enjoyed Travelers and Magicians, and another movie by the same director Khyentse Norbu is a recognized Tulku, he did "The Cup".. great movie!! Also Buddhist. I loooove Samsara. I think it's saying that one can attain enlightenment either way... householder or monk, just commit to the view no matter what. To see your wife as a Buddha too. But, your right in a way... I can see what your talking about. But, I still think it was a good movie, though yes, a bit obtuse and unclear. I too can see that and remember feeling that a bit at the end, just thinking about it and maybe making my own meaning? "Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, Spring" is really, really beautiful and subtle... gorgeous movie!! Ennnjoy!! Enrich!! Oh! Wonderful movie, seen it a few times! Any Tom Hanks movie is good though... you know.

Ah yes, the insecure Ad-Hom! Once again...

Sorry, I kind of skipped over this question. No... I have not removed all my obstacles. But, I have had many, many glimpses as to what that's like, to whatever degree I was able to glimpse or another. One of my obstacles seems to be, how to not be stressed out in front of the computer. It feels like this bombardment of really dense and sticky energy from T.V. screens and Computer screens, I don't know how to integrate that too well, except sometimes. The point that all obstacles are removed can be elucidated by this poem. Nagarjuna's Mahamudra Vision Homage to Manjusrikumarabhuta! 1. I bow down to the all-powerful Buddha Whose mind is free of attachment, Who in his compassion and wisdom Has taught the inexpressible. 2. In truth there is no birth - Then surely no cessation or liberation; The Buddha is like the sky And all beings have that nature. 3. Neither Samsara nor Nirvana exist, But all is a complex continuum With an intrinsic face of non-inherent existence, The object of ultimately clear awareness. 4. The nature of all things Appears like a reflection, Pure and naturally quiescent, With a non-dual quality of suchness. 5. The common mind imagines a self Where there is nothing at all, And it conceives of emotional states - Happiness, suffering, and equanimity. 6. The six states of being in Samsara, The happiness of heaven, The suffering of hell, Are all false creations, figments of mind. 7. Likewise the ideas of bad action causing suffering, Old age, disease and death, And the idea that virtue leads to happiness, Are mere ideas, unreal notions. 8. Like an artist frightened By the devil he paints, The sufferer in Samsara Is terrified by his own imagination. 9. Like a man caught in quicksands Thrashing and struggling about, So beings drown In the mess of their own thoughts. 10. Mistaking fantasy for reality Causes an experience of suffering; Mind is poisoned by interpretation Of consciousness of form. 11. Dissolving figment and fantasy With a mind of compassionate insight, Remain in perfect awareness In order to help all beings. 12. So acquiring conventional virtue Freed from the web of discursive thought, Insurpassable understanding is gained As Buddha, friend to the world. 13. Knowing the relativity of all, The ultimate truth is always seen; Dismissing the idea of beginning, middle and end The flow is seen as Emptiness (non-abiding). 14. So all samsara and nirvana is seen as it is - Empty and insubstantial, Naked and changeless, Eternally quiescent and illumined. 15. As the figments of a dream Dissolve upon waking, So the confusion of Samsara Fades away in enlightenment. 16. Idealising things of no substance As eternal, substantial and satisfying, Shrouding them in a fog of desire The round of existence arises. 17. The nature of beings is unborn Yet commonly beings are conceived to exist; Both beings and their ideas Are false beliefs. 18. It is nothing but an artifice of mind This birth into an illusory becoming, Into a world of good and evil action With good or bad rebirth to follow. 19. When the wheel of mind ceases to turn All things come to an end. So there is nothing inherently substantial And all things are utterly pure. 20. This great ocean of samsara, Full of delusive thought, Can be crossed in the boat Universal Approach (Buddhadharma). Who can reach the other side without it? The Twenty Mahayana Verses, (in Sanskrit, Mahayanavimsaka; in Tibetan: Theg pa chen po nyi shu pa) were composed by the master Nagarjuna. May All Beings Be Happy!

Oh Joy! I'm not wasting my time! YAY!!

Ad-hom's Ad-hom's Ad-hom's... all reflections of insecurity.

The difference between Buddhism and other traditions, is that the tradition itself IS the enlightenment, is it's expression, is it's qualities of realization, is Buddhahood in symbolic form. Other traditions talk about transcending the tradition into a non-conceptual ground of reality. Buddhism cuts through that like fire to water... Truth be told.

Like real life movies, right? Not dharma teachings movies, but like depictions of real life characters who are buddhists in life situations that are fictional or autobiographical? Definitely "Kundun" about the life of the Dhalai Lama directed by Martin Scorsese. Incredible movie, acting and direction!! Also... "Little Buddha".. great imagry, acting is ok. But great story about the life of the Buddha and also the life of a family being effected by the whole tulku experience. Directed by Bernardo Bertolucci. With Keanu Reeves, Ruocheng Ying, Chris Isaak, also has Sogyal Rinpoche acting in it. He can't act really, but he's such a jolly guy who's happiness you can see very clearly. He's almost too happy to be acting in a movie, lol! He giggles a lot, he tries to say lines, but he's... funny about it. I don't know how to say it. "Samsara" is very good... click link for slight description "Why has Bodhidharma left for the East"... Beautiful film. link to explanation "Spring, summer, fall, winter, spring" also a beautiful movie!! click link for info. enjoy!!