Vajrahridaya

I actually kind of feel sorry for you ralis. You're perspective is so negative concerning the beautiful adornments of reality through spiritual traditions. They are celebratory! All you see is corruption, and ignorance, this I think is a revelation of your proverbial mirror.

LOL! Yeah, maybe. That'd be nice if every student of enlightened teachers attained enlightenment in 7 or 9 years.

Steve, I agree with what you said in your last post. There is a tradition in India that says one should evaluate ones Guru for 7 or 9 years or something like that before actually becoming his or her student.

I do agree with the meaning of some of his intellectual musings. I just don't find him a very deep realizer of the essence of them himself. I also find that his view is extreme and doesn't see exactly what people need in order to realize the truth directly beyond some intellectual antidotes that sound nice on paper. I do think he was well meaning enough to be thought of as a good person worth holding a nice conversation with. No Steve, not at all. Thank you for allowing me to disagree with your opinion about someone.

You're welcome.

Exactly. The Buddha was clear on what a Buddha would teach. Jiddu Krishnamurti was an inspired intellect with some spiritual weight, far from a Buddha though, in my opinion. What you consider trappings are aspects of Buddhism that without, wouldn't have produced the wonderful 84 Mahasiddhas as well as thousands of other Buddhist Masters of antiquity and modern days, of which Krishnamurti is not amongst, in my opinion. He left some self evaluation techniques, but no real path of methodology that works to strip away to the core, all the layers of self clinging. He was an inspired intellect that said some nice things though. I can understand why those that are inspired by Krishnamurti think the way they do about time honored traditions that have actually lead to Buddhahood, the rainbow body, or complete satori. I do not agree with your point of view, this is my opinion based upon my own contemplation of this persons teachings in comparison with those teachers I consider of higher realization. That shouldn't be such a problem.

The Buddha taught what he discovered, how he discovered it. So, yes, he was a Buddhist before becoming a Buddha as he said himself, he was only revealing an ancient path that was dead at the time that he rediscovered it. What you stated is a popular way to think about beings like Jesus, because no, he wasn't a Christian as Christianity is obviously far from what he taught. But, all in all, Buddhism is as he taught as he taught the precepts the noble truths the 8 fold path the levels of attainment, etc. for 45 years he taught, then he taught after death through the Sambhogakaya. He is not like other teachers who's religions sprang up different from the way he taught it. Even the other Buddhas that came after him are proof of this, and expanded on what he taught or evolved it. This is a common Mahayana view, of which I am, that he actually attained the highest Bumi before taking birth while practicing Buddhadharma (by whatever name) in Tushitaloka (a celestial realm). So, as a Mahayana practitioner, I believe this to be true, as it's possibility is elaborated upon through the Mahayana texts. He, unlike Jesus, was a practitioner of his spiritual tradition pryer to his spinning of the wheel on Earth. I believe this to be true based upon my own spiritual experiences. So, this is what I think of the historical Buddha, so I don't agree with your interpretation. Your first statement rests on a lack of education and insight into the Buddhadharma, and the second rests upon your subjective view of me, an opinion that I'm fine with, as you are welcome to have it. But, to make an entire thread spawned by anger, which it was spawned by your anger and your level of affectedness, you cause more violence. As does Ralis. If you two really are not interested in my position, you could just ignore me, or post in a thread where I am not posting. Really it's quite ridiculous. You are as guilty of what you two accuse me of. So either let me be wrong as you think that I am, or stop being just as wrong by dragging this crap on over and over again like fools who while watching TV talk about how much they hate a show but instead of changing the channel, just keep on watching it out of some sort of masochistic tendency. All your points are really absurd.

Just as you appeal to your own mind as an authority to put me down and criticize me at every turn. Yes, it's from Keith Dowmans site. But why should that matter, I credited the original translator. You didn't credit where you got your version from at all. You are such a hypocrite, do you enjoy acting this way?

Ralis, is this Tilopas Song of Mahamudra to Naropa? This is one of those songs that should be given to a yogi who has actually traversed through the path, having taken refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha. This song given to someone without cultivation in the practices that Tilopa taught, will lead people to confusion. If you actually knew what Tilopa taught, as he taught refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha as well as debated wrong views, you would have a deeper context for the meaning of these words instead of equating them erroneously to your own pre-conceptions. Besides, I like this translation much better. Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in Twenty Eight Verses Homage to the Eighty Four Mahasiddhas! Homage to Mahamudra! Homage to the Vajra Dakini! Mahamudra cannot be taught. But most intelligent Naropa, Since you have undergone rigorous austerity, With forbearance in suffering and with devotion to your Guru, Blessed One, take this secret instruction to heart. Is space anywhere supported? Upon what does it rest? Like space, Mahamudra is dependant upon nothing; Relax and settle in the continuum of unalloyed purity, And, your bonds loosening, release is certain. Gazing intently into the empty sky, vision ceases; Likewise, when mind gazes into mind itself, The train of discursive and conceptual thought ends And supreme enlightenment is gained. Like the morning mist that dissolves into thin air, Going nowhere but ceasing to be, Waves of conceptualization, all the mind's creation, dissolve, When you behold your mind's true nature. Pure space has neither colour nor shape And it cannot be stained either black or white; So also, mind's essence is beyond both colour and shape And it cannot be sullied by black or white deeds. The darkness of a thousand aeons is powerless To dim the crystal clarity of the sun's heart; And likewise, aeons of samsara have no power To veil the clear light of the mind's essence. Although space has been designated "empty", In reality it is inexpressible; Although the nature of mind is called "clear light", Its every ascription is baseless verbal fiction. The mind's original nature is like space; It pervades and embraces all things under the sun. Be still and stay relaxed in genuine ease, Be quiet and let sound reverberate as an echo, Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds. The body is essentially empty like the stem of a reed, And the mind, like pure space, utterly transcends the world of thought: Relax into your intrinsic nature with neither abandon nor control - Mind with no objective is Mahamudra - And, with practice perfected, supreme enlightenment is gained. The clear light of Mahamudra cannot be revealed By the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises Of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka; The clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals. By harbouring rigid precepts the true samaya is impaired, But with cessation of mental activity all fixed notions subside; When the swell of the ocean is at one with its peaceful depths, When mind never strays from indeterminate, non-conceptual truth, The unbroken samaya is a lamp lit in spiritual darkness. Free of intellectual conceits, disavowing dogmatic principles, The truth of every school and scripture is revealed. Absorbed in Mahamudra, you are free from the prison of samsara; Poised in Mahamudra, guilt and negativity are consumed; And as master of Mahamudra you are the light of the Doctrine. The fool in his ignorance, disdaining Mahamudra, Knows nothing but struggle in the flood of samsara. Have compassion for those who suffer constant anxiety! Sick of unrelenting pain and desiring release, adhere to a master, For when his blessing touches your heart, the mind is liberated. KYE HO! Listen with joy! Investment in samsara is futile; it is the cause of every anxiety. Since worldly involvement is pointless, seek the heart of reality! In the transcending of mind's dualities is Supreme vision; In a still and silent mind is Supreme Meditation; In spontaneity is Supreme Activity; And when all hopes and fears have died, the Goal is reached. Beyond all mental images the mind is naturally clear: Follow no path to follow the path of the Buddhas; Employ no technique to gain supreme enlightenment. KYE MA! Listen with sympathy! With insight into your sorry worldly predicament, Realising that nothing can last, that all is as dreamlike illusion, Meaningless illusion provoking frustration and boredom, Turn around and abandon your mundane pursuits. Cut away involvement with your homeland and friends And meditate alone in a forest or mountain retreat; Exist there in a state of non-meditation And attaining no-attainment, you attain Mahamudra. A tree spreads its branches and puts forth leaves, But when its root is cut its foliage withers; So too, when the root of the mind is severed, The branches of the tree of samsara die A single lamp dispels the darkness of a thousand aeons; Likewise, a single flash of the mind's clear light Erases aeons of karmic conditioning and spiritual blindness. KYE HO! Listen with joy! The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind; The meaning of non-action cannot be understood in compulsive activity; To realise the meaning of non-action and beyond mind, Cut the mind at its root and rest in naked awareness. Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear; Refrain from both positive and negative projection - leave appearances alone: The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra. The unborn omnipresent base dissolves your impulsions and delusions: Do not be conceited or calculating but rest in the unborn essence And let all conceptions of yourself and the universe melt away. The highest vision opens every gate; The highest meditation plumbs the infinite depths; The highest activity is ungoverned yet decisive; And the highest goal is ordinary being devoid of hope and fear. At first your karma is like a river falling through a gorge; In mid-course it flows like a gently meandering River Ganga; And finally, as a river becomes one with the ocean, It ends in consummation like the meeting of mother and son. If the mind is dull and you are unable to practice these instructions, Retaining essential breath and expelling the sap of awareness, Practising fixed gazes - methods of focussing the mind, Discipline yourself until the state of total awareness abides. When serving a karmamudra, the pure awareness of bliss and emptiness will arise: Composed in a blessed union of insight and means, Slowly send down, retain and draw back up the bodhichitta, And conducting it to the source, saturate the entire body. But only if lust and attachment are absent will that awareness arise. Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon, Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion, You will quickly gain mundane power and supreme enlightenment. May this pith instruction in Mahamudra Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings. Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in twenty Eight Verses was transmitted by the Great Guru and Mahasiddha Tilopa to the Kashmiri Pandit, Sage and Siddha, Naropa, near the banks of the River Ganga upon the completion of his Twelve Austerities. Naropa transmitted the teaching in Sanskrit in the form of twenty eight verses to the great Tibetan translator Mar pa Chos kyi blos gros, who made a free translation of it at his village of Pulahari on the Tibet - Bhutan border. This text is contained in the collection of Mahamudra instruction called the Do ha mdzod brgyad ces bya ba Phyag rgya chen po'i man ngag gsal bar ston pa'i gzhung, which is printed at the Gyalwa Karmapa's monastery at Rumtek, Sikkim. The Tibetan title is Phyag rgya chen po'i man ngag, or Phyag rgya chen po rdo rje'i tsig rkang nyi shu rtsa brgyad pa. This translation into English has been done by Kunzang Tenzin in 1977, after transmission of the oral teaching by Khamtrul Rinpoche in Tashi Jong, Kangra Valley, India. ...................................... Really Ralis, to think you know more about the meaning of this than great beings like the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama?

What the Buddha taught has both relative and ultimate meanings. Those who take the ultimate meaning without first traversing the relative I think are really missing what the Buddha taught as well. Apannaka Jataka Buddha declares: "Disciples, nowhere between the lowest of hells below and the highest heaven above, nowhere in all the infinite worlds that stretch right and left, is there the equal, much less the superior, of a Buddha. Incalculable is the excellence which springs from obeying the Precepts and from other virtuous conduct. By taking refuge in the Triple Gem (Buddha/Dharma/Sangha), one escapes from rebirth in states of suffering. In forsaking such a refuge as this, you have certainly erred. In the past, too, men who foolishly mistook what was no refuge for a real refuge, met disaster." Yes, I am a Buddhist, and the Buddha was a Buddhist as well, even before he became a Buddha. Call it egotistical, but to think of oneself as a Buddha before even being a Buddhist, is foolish. I would not follow or trust that person to reflect the Buddhas teachings as succinctly as a Buddhist Master, even if they have cultivated to a high degree, I would not consider it Buddhahood nor his/her words a worthy teaching to take take refuge in.

Oh no, you've got that wrong... I'm merely a padawan too brother.

Oh, but it does padawan, it does already have it both ways.

Well, truth is relative anyway... via dependent origination/emptiness, so he would say something to someone that would evolve them, even if it was merely a partial truth from a wider spectrum of reference. Life is a lie anyway, as inferred through the limitations of the 5 senses, which is a kind of truth as well, though limited as it might be. It could also be considered the whole truth from a certain relative paradigm of sense perception. But no, basically Buddha wouldn't lie, he'd merely see what truth out of the infinite number of them would help the most in every instant dependent upon who was listening, thus plenty of what he said has to be contextualized appropriately according to seeing directly his body's (nirmanakaya) dependent origination/emptiness' infinite variability of mirroring manifestations towards self liberation.

What's real 3bob? Why do you even react so intensely? You should wonder.

3bob, did you know that Shankaracharya was a fanatical Buddhist hater, deeply empowered by deep theistic interpretations of reality and the experiences conditioned by such? This is why he worked tirelessly to eradicate Buddhism from India and make it Vedic once again. You may not hate me, but you hate the view that see's through subjective monist idealism.

It's good that you reveal on here how strongly you hold onto a solidly static view of reality. This is typical of theists. This way you can look at how deeply you cling to a self.

You do have a point there. Lots of Taoists like to practice Buddhist philosophy with their Taoist body and energy work though. So... what to do? I do find that Taoism and Buddhism combine very well and it seems that lots of Taoist and Buddhist lineages of antiquity agree with this. Even if Western students of Taoism cannot see or understand why this can be so.

I'm already on a couple Mr. Fanatically affected. I'm well loved too... Thank you, as much as I'm loved here by those that do love me here. I'm loved by more here than openly hated on by you and just a couple of others. Which reveals that your view is subjective, supported by a minority, and has no absolute value in determining my value here.

Concerning emptiness recognized in the moment. There is direct awareness, next are bright lights, swirling colors in the void, next are abstract images, then more emotionally defined images, next are concepts concerning the images, then the symbols of language. All are recognized as equally empty and dependently arisen, endlessly cycling without beginning. One could break this process cycle down more and more... but...

Cool existentialism's! I guess without ideas, we couldn't even consider any of it, and this necessitates water as sustenance.

Yes, I know what you mean, but words can define a persons interpretation of things, due to that, I try to be as specific as possible. Hard enough to do considering how people read things their own way as well. Like, you had a meaning that wasn't communicated clearly through your usage of the symbols of language, but you knew what you were trying to convey, just not as successful as you could have been if we were, lets say, reading each others experiences on a mind to mind level.

Yeah, so Buddha must have been lying the entire 45 years that he preached, because he knew the truth, but didn't tell it, so everything he said was a lie. Either that or he told the truth but didn't know it. HAHAHAHAHA!!! Wow. Mind numbing.

Very good! Nice one.

No, it is like an illusion, it's not actually an illusion, there is no such illusion, but there is life and death, relatively speaking, it's very real, just... malleable. Also the descriptions about the bardo states are real experiences, though the forms may change, the essential type of experiences are the same, as there are all sorts of different types of minds and the forms of these experiences will be in alignment with individual conditioning. But the whole facing of yourself and your demons and focusing on the clear light, recognizing emptiness in the bardo, etc. All this stuff is very good for people to be aware of.

Thanks Ya Mu, yes, in traditional Taoism I know lineage is very important, which is why I looooove Taoism! Also yes, I am also intrigued at how Taoism treats the very same topics that Vajrayana treats. I like the language. Supposedly there is a history of inter-communication between Chinese Taoism and Indian as well as Tibetan Vajrayana, a friendly sharing of ideas.