Vajrahridaya

I didn't even think you were challenging me Shaktimama. I should have used some emoticons to lighten up my post. I was in a hurry... typed that in between a movie bathroom break for my wifey... LOL!!

Yes, I said many make. I wasn't saying that everyone would make the same mistake. But, dependent origination empties all residue and layers of identity from clinging. This is a fundamental fact.

I want to elaborate. I think a mistake many make on kundalini or theistic paths is that the Masters feel they are merged with "god" the one and only... which is merely an ideation or expansion of self. This leads to beings like Adi Da the Free John, where they feel that their will is gods will. Even though there is great power, love, bliss, etc. There is still merely a deeper reification of identification on a larger, deeper and more powerful scale, which is why I went to Buddhism after many kundalini experiences and experiencing and the philosophy of dependent origination and anatman instead of the kundalini path of independent origination/consciousness. I think the ramifications of difference are deep and subtle, reaching into the non-conceptual. This is why the Buddha said that theistic paths merely lead to formless bliss realms and the realms of the highly powerful "gods" or devalokas. Peace.

Oh wonderful! Thanks. I like 5E's post though, it's a perspective I can give credence to. I think kundalini goes through a transformation if one goes into real awakening and stops being kundalini in the lower sense of a person being coiled in ego, and starts to be "prajna" or the energy of wisdom instead... which is calm, open, free, not so much into altered states of mind, not so caught up in "self" or "SELF" even in a universal sense, but just sees how things connect spontaneously, with peace, even though this realm is full of friction, the inner state of peace and release into every moment is prominent.

In a sense, I can see what you're getting at, as kundalini means coiled one, so once one is uncoiled, what's the word... ankundalini? Kind of like atman vs. anatman. In enlightenment anatman is realization and the atman is seen through. I think a better word would be "prajna" or the energy of wisdom. From the energy or fire of purification to the energy of wisdom. I give your perspective credence... it's one of the reasons why I went to Buddhism and Dzogchen specifically. So... yes. I'll agree.

Kundalini Tantra goes into the upper chakras if one cultivates. Kundalini is not just fire, because when awakened, generally through fire, Kundalini awakening merely means "uncoiling" in reference to the entire being. Not all people who experience it's awakening experience it from the bottom up. I experienced it from the top down in fact, so I was activating my upper chakra experiences first, and having physical purification later. Kundalini Tantra utilizes all the elements if done right, and opens all the chakras if cultivated past merely the lower chakras. I see a lot of mis-assumptions here. The energy transforms as it raises through the chakras from lower and dense to higher and more refined as the chakras spin and the energy starts flowing upward from downward, then balancing and harmonizing in the heart chakra the higher and lower frequencies. We are mostly water. Kundalini does raise into water... it's not merely fire, it just starts as fire... generally speaking for most people. For me, it didn't happen that way though. Ah ok... yes, I've experienced this. He's right of course. Take care!!

Which is why I'm more into Dzogchen now which balances all the elements and energies. I've never heard of this idea and I've never experienced this myself. How is it fire uses your energy and not water? How is fire your personal energy and not water? Why can one not connect to the fire of all sorts of masters and utilize that as well? I do agree, but I've never experienced this phenomena of being drained, in fact I feel the opposite. But, I'm more in touch with water now through my Buddhist practice. This is the first thing my Dzogchenpa Rinpoche said to me too when I first met him, as I was having a rash problem on my fingers (eczema) and doing the Kundalini practices wasn't helping this. But, as soon as I did the water mantra he gave me with the visualization he gave me... it went away within a week. He said that my water energy was out of balance. That type of distance thing happens in kundalini paths as well. Even though like I said, I'm more into Dzogchen which I find to be more complete. Anyway... I don't think water connection is absent from kundalini paths, or I think it depends on the individual. Interesting. I've had the same insight. People have to realize their inner causes directly in order to grow, just like a wealthy father has to teach his kids the value of work by teaching them or letting them support themselves through their own efforts.

All my friends who do it have incredible energy, have kundalini awakening, and are deeply virtuous. I've never experienced any negative sides like you say, so I guess that's just my karma. I don't doubt your experience, but it just doesn't apply to my universe as even when I got attuned, it was a very deep and lovely experience. It was awesome... so peaceful. I agree that there is way too much watering down in the West of anything from the East. Way too much bastardizing going on. Just look at what happened to Hatha Yoga! Which is why I'm thankful that the Buddhist forms are not nearly as well known on the pop culture circuit. But, I think this all has to do with capacity. At least people are getting it, even if it's a watered down version. It could be for many people the introduction they need in order to delve deeper and get to the more subtler forms of the same.

Haha... that's awesome!!

Yup my dear... part of the path. I think you get ungrounded to get re-grounded from a different space of depth and the ungrounding process of the "old" filled with limitations me... can be discombobulating at times, and one can loose common social understanding as one is coming from a more free and less inhibited by false morals and conformed virtues state of mind. ya dig? Blue kisses right back at cha!! All the tantric paths reveal that the Siddha Masters travel along the infinite space communications line, so lapis blue is the deal with that...

I do agree. All my friends who got up to reiki master had to go through lots of purification and cleansing. This was back in the early 90's to mid 90's when I guess it wasn't such a blown up thing.

Oh... I didn't read the previous page. I guess I had no idea what Ya Mu was saying. I thought he was just saying that it's not ok to heal with reiki and kundalini or something. I better back track and see what the argument was about, because I realize that I didn't know what anyone was talking about to begin with.

I am reiki attuned and kundalini awakened, they seem to work together just fine. You go ahead with your projections though... they seem to wrap you like a suit.

All my friends that do reiki have kundalini awakened and active. I don't see the big deal, it's just reiki with a cleaner vessel, reiki with a boost? It's Reiki Plus tm.!

I don't understand your reasoning as a religion can indeed by atheistic.

Adept, That's not quite true, as he did create an order of monks, he created rules of conduct for both male and female monks, as well as a lay disciple doctrine of suggestions. He definitely intended to manifest a tradition that would be followed by many people to come. The fact that he started a religion, has no baring at all on wether he was atheist or not. I don't see Evianders point at all. The Buddha was atheist and he started an atheistic religion, that believes in the gods, but doesn't see them as ultimate or any one of them as the main source of all existence. So it's kind of a polytheism but also atheist due to dependent origination/emptiness. Buddhism is quite unique in my opinion.

I do consider this a mis-conclusion, or a mistaken understanding based upon a mis-interpretation of spiritual experience. This sentiment seems true for most traditions, but not for Buddhism. All roads do not lead to Rome and not all roads come from Rome either. Not all paths lead to full awakening.

If one understands D.O. one realizes that there is nothing here to grasp at, and no one to do the grasping... there is just open flow. But, there is also not this ideation nor attachment to a "one" that everyone keeps hollering about. I find that D.O. offers a deeper flowing than the all is "oneness" camp, I feel it offers an even deeper letting go and letting be.

Loooove it!

Oh yes, I also used to read Kabalah stuff. I was also into Sufi like crazy, being inspired to tears and experience by Rumi, Mansur Mastana, Hafiz, and Rabia... Kabir... etc. Anyway... put your thought where your inspiration is, if you truly wish to study the worlds religions, study the one with the most texts and larger history of enlightened beings... namely, Buddhism, the largest religion in the world during the time of Christ. p.s. was into Abhoriginal stuff and Bush man stuff for a while there too. Also the Philokalia of the Desert Fathers, and saints of the Eastern Orthodox, the more famous saints of Catholicism too.

This is still a projection arisen originated from erroneous cognition. The whole is no such "self" intelligence. It is merely collective unconscious, known in Buddhism as the Alayavijnana, which has 2 applications, individual and collective unconscious. You still don't understand dependent origination then. Neither intellectually nor experientially. Ok, so then study Buddhism in depth. I've studied all the worlds religions myself. Buddhism says and experiences something different. Not as an -ism, but as an expression of those that are truly, "awake" or Buddha. I can only suggest one go deeper into meditation and study. It is all connected, and the human brain, as far as on this Earth goes, has the unique ability to go infinite, both conceptually and experientially, of course what it can house physically is another dimension. But, this brain can transcend itself quite well. Actually... I was raised theist, through Advaita Vedanta, as well as Kaula Tantricism. I studied Taoism before Buddhism in fact. With much enthusiasm and openness. Ok, so you're not open to me at all... so be it. Yes, as dependently originated, empty of self essence. You do not do as you suggest, otherwise you'd come to the same conclusion and wouldn't reify the cosmos. If you want to know Buddhism, start at least with Madhyamaka, without commentary first. If you are truly open to studying other systems... as you claim? I'm not speaking in paradox, you're mentality of interpretation must be dualistic? Oh my dear... you have no idea how much I've studied. Stop projecting and actually study Buddhism, from beginning to end. I've read the Nag Hammadhi, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Upanishads and Puranas, the Vedas and the Tao Te Ching, I know the I Ching back to front, the Shamans of Pueblos in New Mexico, the Shamans of the Auywaska and Peyote tribes, experientially. I know Hinduism back to front, from the Siddhars of Tamil Nadu to the Bhakti Siddhas like Mirabai and the teachings of Jhaneswar. I know about the Hungarian Shamans, the Bon... etc. etc. etc. I've studied plenty my dear. Please... study the Pali Suttas, for your own sake... No baring on me though.

There is no end to this whole... who can experience all nuances of everything all at once? All endless cycles of cosmic eons? Show me that being? If you are merely referring to states of infinite consciousness... infinite space, such other formless samadhis. You should read the suttas, maybe some abhidhamma even. Or Abhidharma Kosha? These are still merely just references to individual exploration of ones own unconscious. Sure... it's just infinite potential... that doesn't mean it's a real entity in and of itself. You are merely projecting "self" onto infinite potential that has no reference other than beginningless time as it's own cause, which is also an effect. You haven't studied much buddhism, so you haven't meditated upon it's meaning, so you would not have the insightful experience of it's explanation. I do recommend it though. This is still merely self projection. This is merely the collective unconscious, not a self shining entity. Which is post Buddha. No, you can transcend the human brain too. Just get into immaterial realms, or rather, more refined material realms. Of course, the brain has openings for this experience of brain transcendence. It's obvious you haven't delved into Buddhism without attachment to pre-conceptions. You don't receive the explanation well. Yes, but "right view" the 1st noble truth understood is the only view that empties all these experiences of inherent quality and sees their dependency within infinite regress and does not create a rooftop concept that is independent which all other experiences originate from or upon as their platform for existence. Truly seeing this intuitively leads to an entirely different understanding of existence. Basically... if you want to know what the Buddha taught... study it. If you don't, then don't. Study yourself without an intellectual, emotional, or experiential excuses for ignorance, empty yourself of yourself. You might like to study more of the Pali Suttas. Try some Theravada studies to begin with. I used to believe as you did, but only due to a lack of study and experience. I won't say much more on this, as I'm not trying to bring forth a sense of personal reaction from you at all! That is not my intent.

Well... in reference to her other posts... I feel she means some sort of inherent existence, some sort of self shining that is behind everything both individually and universally. Soul in a very Upanishadic notion. Which the Buddha debated as a very subtle delusion leading merely to further recycling and not deep insight into the true nature of things... thus, no liberation, do not pass go... do not collect 100 instances per second of un-conditioned experiencing.

This idea is based upon your attachment to a notion that there is a "at once". Since it's a we, there is no way "I" can experience all being's at once. It's a more grounded non-dualism based upon emptiness of inherent existence instead of a supreme substance of a god that is one with everything. Finding it would only originate dependently... and be just as illusive as anything. There is no source beyond us... I do understand how deep the attachment to a transcendent super being is though... a transcendent essential self... it's a multi-layered attachment. It's ok to have it... it's just not going to lead to the "Awakened" insight of liberated experiencing. Nirvana has nothing to do with God... read the Suttas for verification... meditate deeply on what you find there for experiential data. These are not my opinions. Then transcend your humanity... which is one of the human capacities... strangely enough. In Buddhism... we see that theistic paths can lead to all the mundane siddhis, or powers... supernatural or just deeply natural? Anyway... the power of insight into dependent origination is the liberating siddhi or super-power that has no signs, and is not determinable outside of it's own realization of self transcendence, or rather, just seeing through oneself and all being eminently, while being... also very strange. Seemingly anti-natural even? But it's really just being natural in seeing through oneself. This is not what emptiness means... like an empty jar from the popular English ideation. Shunyata means malleability, non-static nature, no inherent essence... inter-dependently originated. What you are referring to is space or ether. Which can be experienced directly through meditative focus. This is not the same type of emptiness as referred to in Buddhism. Well, ok it's one of the emptiness', of which there are many, depending upon the paradigm of application. Actually, these realms do exist on a co-objective or rather, inter-subjective level, just like this one. Go deeper into meditation and verify this. This is merely your self clinging talking... it's ok. I understand it's depth. I feel it's self importance. Just... study more, practice deeper and contemplate it's possibility is all... nothing more, nothing less. Just open up to it's maybe-ness?

She's just connected to the element of space... which is infinite, all pervasive, all permeating... etc. etc. When you are active through this connection, you are connected to great masters, even if you are merely a great student of them... to whatever degree... All the other elements will be with that connection making it electric!! ZAP!! It's a good thing...