Vajrahridaya

Actually, there is no "soul" there are only levels of consciousness and it's all a body, as consciousness... empty of inherent existence, arisen due to endless consciousness' all inter-connected, infinitely individual, but without prime essence, only inter-relative seeming substance. You experience a body of sensation in higher and lower realms. Yes... you do... you really do. Actually, the sensation is more intense and less hampered by pain in higher realms, and in lower realms, it is more hampered by pain and density. A kiss in various pleasure heaven realms is like a full body orgasm on tantric sex here on Earth. Then there are realms that are so filled with bliss... man... if you get there in meditation or lucid dreaming... you won't want to come back, but alas.... karma. mmmmm.... Seriously...

Actually, the weight is, is that we are that energy, as in all endless sentient beings, not one divine entity. We are those consciousness' (plural) that are the circuit board... all equally empty of inherent existence and all co-dependent for existence... endlessly, since beginningless time. To see it's weight, you have to experience it's weight directly, by seeing what it truly means, experientially, surpassing all the meditative, and contemplative experiences that once supported your belief in a single "god" as supreme entity and ruler of the cosmos. The Buddha wasn't an Atheist for no darn good reason... he was because he saw through all the experiences of all sentient beings, into dependent origination. Oh... it holds weight... it is all weight, empty of itself. You are free to believe in god... but it's a delusion that will keep you recycling yourself, over, and over, and over, and over..... from bliss realm to hell realm, to bliss realm, to hell realm... p.s. This truth may make your heart hurt for a while as it looses it crutch for support... like a bad break up, but possibly even worse. Then... you'll get it, and realize directly how liberating it is!!! Far more than any theism can do for you. p.p.s. You might even get sick, fall apart... it could get really bad loosing this crutch, no "god" but equally, no "satan"... thank goodness!! LOL!! But seriously... it could take years getting over this "god" thing as the insight of dependent origination dawns deeply on one. p.p.p.s. I want to clarify... there are most definitely co-originated "god's" and "satans'" or Mara's... what have you... but none of them have ultimate existence... and that is the liberating fact of dependent origination, the insight that completely liberates without residue.

Yeah babay!! Saw them live at Lalapalooza 2 in Arizona back in 94'? I think, or... yes... maybe yes... 94'. Anyway... YAY!!! P-FUUUUUUNK!!!

If a situation like that opens up for one naturally, then this is fine, but to demand these teachings with no respect is another thing.

Cool avatar. All people are equally worthy in potential, but not actuality as people have to develop their potential first. All people are equally worthy but for different things as well. Let's just be practical here. If you want secret teachings from masters, you're going to have to work for them. Just like if you want to learn the higher maths, you're going to have to learn the lower. It's the same with learning to be a master chef, there is a process to undergo before one gets to learn the really interesting stuff.

Yes, this is called the "brahma siddhi", where you are able to talk to an audience but reach the individual heart of each person in the audience. He was deeply experienced too having mastered all the different levels of meditation and space travel through meditation and was able to go to other realms to have conversations with gods, see through things, etc. So the assumption that Buddhism is merely logic only is also an erroneous view that would be corrected by the Buddha, and one can see this if one simply reads the Pali Suttas.

Thanks for the recap, it's been a while.

Sounds nice, but you're off the mark. Even the Buddha debated against Hindu and Jain ideas. The Hindu/Buddha debate has been going on for a very long time, since before Christ in fact.

Wow! I've never made any entries to Wiki. You dear sir... are a holder of the crown of fool. You need help, a guru, transmission, meditation... something. Maybe even medication?

I disagree, the hindu version is different and pre existed the Buddha. This is what I've read, and if I'm wrong, you can go ahead and shot me, ok? I'm with the Buddhist version though...

Looks like your talking to yourself again, and about yourself even... cool.

The Upanashads are Vedic, so are the Brahmins, the Rishis and plenty of the Shramanas were Vedically inclined too, but just interpreted differently.

Yup... he certainly is difficult.

The problem with scholars is that they all disagree. The older Upanishads if you read them, all seem to be pre-Buddha to me, so I'll agree with those scholars. You can have your win in your world, that's fine by me.

:lol: Awesome... even though... of course, I don't buy it. I don't agree, as accidents happen in heaven and hell realms too.

:lol: He's funny... he is very young I think. He did say 12 at one time. I'm not sure if he's that young though?

Just read what Sunya posted and put it to rest.

Some did accept the Upanishads and the Vedas, some without the caste system others without any of the Brahmin interpretations, some after the advent of Buddhism were Buddhist, as shramana and bikshu are synonymous. There were all types of Shramanas. Regardless, the first ones to talk about the concept of karma were Vedic, were Brahmins as far as what was written down. Who knows what people talked about pryer to things getting written down. It's just that the first to write it out and talk about it in written form, were Vedic Rishis.

The Shramana tradition and the Upanishad tradition is the same. The Shramanas of that time were mostly by and large Hindus... they are not their own religion. Shramana just means wandering sadhu, or wandering mendicant, or renunciate. There isn't the Shramana religion, these were just types of people who adhered to either Jain, Buddhist, Hindu or Ajivika which is basically just another kind of early hinduism. Since we are talking post Buddha and post Mahavira the starter of the Jains... they were Hindu. Anyway... Wiki link for Shramana

So anyway... we have Karma, and it's dependently originated add infinitum. The Buddha didn't invent the concept, nor the reality of it, but he most definitely clarified it for our sake... thank goodness. Who cares when he did it, but he did it! We're all so happy now... YAY!! Let's make some good karma together... shall we?

Actually the ones I just named are pre-Buddha... well known to be. The Chandogya Upanishad considered the oldest is most likely 500 to 700 years older in fact. "The Chandogya Upanishad is one of the "primary" (mukhya) Upanishads. Together with the Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad it ranks among the oldest Upanishads, dating to the Vedic Brahmana period (probably before first millennium BCE)."

We are dealing with either a pre-teen or a new teen of some very young age I'm sure. Maybe fresh out of high school at best.

Shramanas pryer to Buddhism... were mostly Hindu following the early Chandogya Upanishad, Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad all associated with the Sama Veda which is more than a thousand years older than the Buddha. So, yes... all I was saying is that the concept of karma is originally Vedic. Karma and the concept of reincarnation go hand in hand like white on rice.

From Wiki concerning the origins of the concept of karma: "Brahmins wrote the earliest recorded scriptures containing these ideas in the early Upanishads." Brahmins are Vedic based. You can also be a Hindu Shramana who believes in the Vedas but are a wandering ascetic. You don't make the connections very well as I think your brain is still developing, this is not an insult. It's just that you are still a growing young lad.

When the sentence says, "buddhism and jainism are continuations of..." that means that they post date the invention of the concept of karma. That means they come afterwards, they are continuations of something pryer. Seriously young one, calm down. This is why we don't consider much of what you say as holding weight. You might have read Namdrols posts, who is yes, a real scholar and a knowledgeable one, but it turns out that you are still learning how to read properly to begin with, and your ability to understand what you read is undernourished. Gain some humility and respect those that have been around for longer than you and have a better grasp of the English language than you. As this is what we're reading here, and pryer on E-Sangha.