Vajrahridaya

Wow... :lol: You poor kid. I've got better things to do right now. You take care... stay off the ice cream and I hope your parents don't let you drink Chai. You've gotta calm down and actually read what your quoting my dear boy... sloooooowly. It's common knowledge that the term "karma" which means action, and the concepts of reincarnation are not the Buddhas inventions.

The early Upanishads pre-date the Buddha. So do the Hindu Shramana traditions and so do the Rig Vedas. So yes, you are just not reading properly because I think you might actually be 12 years old and hopped up on candy bars and gummy bears right now?

Am I seriously having an argument with a 12 year old here? Does anybody know the true age of alwayson?

You don't read well do you? It's saying that the term Karma finds it's origins in the Brahmanic religions or even the Shramanas of the forrest traditions pryer to the advent of the Buddha.

Wiki is not supporting your arguments. Neither do I because I know that wiki is right as I've studied this stuff with passion since 1990 and have been around this information my entire life, which is longer than yours. I was born in 1975.

Because it merely means a wandering monk. So yes... I can be one now. I've actually met a couple of shramanas in Berkley in both the Hindu and Buddhist tradition. "A shramana (Sanskrit śramaṇa श्रमण, Pāli samaṇa) is a wandering monk in certain ascetic traditions of ancient India in Jainism, Buddhism, and Ājīvika religion (now extinct). Famous śramaṇa include religious leaders Mahavira and Gautama Buddha."

Dude... You can look up this information on google and find out for yourself. Plus, friends who I grew up with chanting in sanskrit are now PHD's in sanskrit. So... you can go read about it. These dates are not arbitrary... you can even wiki them right now and find out. In fact. "In order to explain the common features shared by Sanskrit and other Indo-European languages, many scholars have proposed migration hypotheses asserting that the original speakers of what became Sanskrit arrived in what is now India and Pakistan from the north-west some time during the early second millennium BCE.[10] Evidence for such a theory includes the close relationship of the Indo-Iranian tongues with the Baltic and Slavic languages, vocabulary exchange with the non-Indo-European Finno-Ugric languages, and the nature of the attested Indo-European words for flora and fauna.[11] The earliest attested Sanskrit texts are Hindu texts of the Rigveda, which date to the mid-to-late second millennium BCE. No written records from such an early period survive. However, scholars are confident that the oral transmission of the texts is reliable: they were ceremonial literature whose correct pronunciation was considered crucial to its religious efficacy.[12] However, it needs to be pointed out that several features of the language used in the Rigveda can be shown to be present in Prakrit, which underlines the long-held scholarly position that the Prakrits derive from Vedic, not from Panini's Sanskrit. "

From Wiki: Origins: A concept of karma (along with samsara and moksha) may originate in the shramana tradition of which Buddhism and Jainism are continuations. This tradition influenced the Brahmanic religion in the early Vedantic (Upanishadic) movement of the 1st millennium BC. This worldview was adopted from this religious culture by Brahmin orthodoxy, and Brahmins wrote the earliest recorded scriptures containing these ideas in the early Upanishads. Until recently, the scholarly consensus was that reincarnation is absent from the earliest strata of Brahminical literature. However, a new translation of two stanzas of the Rig Veda indicate that the Brahmins may have had the idea, common among small-scale societies around the world, that an individual cycles back and forth between the earth and a heavenly realm of ancestors. In this worldview, moral behavior has no influence on rebirth. The idea that the moral quality of one's actions influences one's rebirth is absent from India until the period of the shramana religions, and the Brahmins appear to have adopted this idea from other religious groups.

I don't read Devanagari but I do understand many of the terms in transliteration. I have a lot of friends who are sanskrit scholars, quite a few in fact. Anyway... why not just look some things up, go google for a while if you're curious.

You need to study more. Yes, I can become a shramana right now! definition of shramana You can just google the term and correct yourself of course... I really wonder how old you are because you act young and you really aren't all that knowledgeable enough to be belittling your elders who know much more than you about these topics.

No, the origin of sanskrit can be earlier than that by either double to 500 years. It supposedly comes from the North and enters into India at the time that you stated, but it could very well be older. It was called "Aryan Speech" or "arya vac" before it was called Sanskrit or Chandasa by Panini. Anyway...

Actually, no, I didn't agree with that conclusion in total, as only the newer Upanishads are post Buddha and one can tell by the content and style. There are obviously some upanishads that are pre-Buddha, called the Mukhya upanishads. The ones that we know are pre-Buddha are the Bṛhadāraṇyaka, Chāndogya Upanishads which are pre-Panini dating to the Vedic Sanskrit period, and Panini who was a contemporary of the Buddha, or there abouts was the famous grammarian of early sanskrit. The Vedas are long pryer to the Buddha and the concept of Karma is vedic in origin. Karma is well known to be a pre-Buddha term and concept. I ask your age, because I'm surprised you don't know this as someone who is Indian? Aren't you from India? I'm 35 and grew up my entire life Hindu, but in America though I'm not Indian. Specifically I grew up in Tantric Shaivite in the Trika or Kaula style and Advaita Vedanta style Hinduism of Shankaracharya. I studied all the available texts I could on these traditions, well lots more traditions as well. But anyway... I am well read in Hinduism. I attended Yajnas with real Brahmin priests from India, and grew up chanting the Shree Rudram from the Rigveda, as well as the Hanuman Chalisa, the Bhagavad Gita... and other Gitas... etc. etc. Before coming to Buddhism. Shramana just means a wandering ascetic and could be Buddhist, Hindu or Jain, or even Ajivika. Because Mahavira was a contemporary of the Buddha, they were either Ajivika shramana or Hindu shramana traditions that he first learned from. They were most likely Upanishad Hindu based due to the way his first teachers are talked about and what they taught the Buddha as recorded in the Pali Suttas are prominent Hindu ideas that appear in the early Upanishads.

Where would the information for the first choice come from to have free will within the evolution of a single "soul" within the God is all, the maker of all, and the first cause of all theory? If I come from and am a part of god, and god is the first cause of my ability for choice, as well as the material world that he projects me into? He must have chosen where he put different people which conditioned their first choice setting off the domino effect of individual destiny. I contemplated this very intensely for a long time after ever deepening states of meditation. Buddhist cosmology answered my more deeply subtle questions about how things occur, and how big bangs happen and the multi-universe theory, etc. Theism hasn't been able to answer many of my deepest questions. You can come to your own conclusions through study, meditation and contemplation.

The original Upanishads were forrest hindu teachings pryer to the Buddha and these people weren't interested in the big cities where the Brahmins were rulers of spirituality. You know... the first thing the Buddha did was go to the forrest and learn forrest hinduism from two masters of samadhi in the tradition? He learned the formless jhana states from these forrest hindu masters. The term and meaning of karma is a Vedic invention having to do with the Vedic Sanskrit period which is anywhere from 2,000 BC to 1,000 BC pryer to Panini the famous sanskrit grammarian. It might even be earlier as some place the Vedas in the 4,000's BC. Are you really an Indian? Seriously Alwayson... how old are you?

He clarified it, but the basic premise of rebirth through karma was already there as a Brahmanistic and even forrest hindu idea. The term karma relating to cause and effect, reincarnation, the various realms of rebirth available to one, etc. etc. was already a firmly established cultural idea in India long before the Buddha was born. His clarification of the term is the specific insight of a Buddha, but that is all.

Yes, there is evidence, it was reported with specific names and the stories behind it and what the information was... the detail escape me because I didn't care enough as I was pedicabbing at the time of listening. My mother has the information. Anyway... it's not speculation. I think plenty of the information was good to let out, but I think that some things just should stay secret, including very esoteric teachings that the masses aren't ready for yet.

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Wow, you really do need an education in your own lands religious anthropology. I know so... how about that. I grew up Hindu my entire life and spent many years studying the teachings of Hinduism with deep focus and respect... before realizing that Buddhism is bigger, better, faster, more awesome... studly... etc.

The Hindu version was first and it's from the Vedas. The Buddha deeply clarified the term and rendered it in a new light as well, as there is no creator god in Buddhism like there is in Vedic lore. The caste system was considered a persons dharma and karma granted by god... as one example.

Whatever bro... You can do you... I thought Wikileaks was irresponsible in many instances. His leaking ruined plenty of lives who have long been innocent of many things of the past.

I'm also surprised. The Buddha didn't make up most any of the terms he used to teach his teachings. He did make up sanatanadhamma though. Or whatever the Pali version of that word is... I'm not a scholar, though I know a bit of sanskrit in transliteration through growing up my entire life as a Hindu before becoming Buddhist.

I agree on the deity and intermingling thing. Who knows if Hanuman came from India or China...?? Who knows? Garuda does seem to be all over the place as well... yes, yes. But, anyway... with the teachings... if you don't have them, and they ain't giving them to you... what cha gona do about it? Why not get transmission, go through the practices, attain the pre-requisite states of mind and meditation stability and you'll get the teachings! Then you can do whatever you want with them, write books, put them on stickers and plaster them on busses, spray pain the teachings on garage doors and high schools, the Brooklyn Bridge? Sky write them over and over again in the air through a rent a plane? How about that GIH... sound good? I mean, if you can't convince them through logic and reason to give you the teachings and methods that they are holding captive from you, then I guess you'll have to convince them through making them see that you are indeed ready.

Yup... they sure are. Funny that Gandhi started his non-violent movement in South Africa though.

Don't force breath retention in my opinion, just feel how it feels in your body, the space will automatically increase and you will automatically relax deeply... Feel the energy of the breath and the force against your lungs and in your body...

Oh of course... there were plenty of new deities introduced into the same old from India practices. Some of the local demons and gods were subjugated and turned into protectors. I'm not denying that at all.