Vajrahridaya

He's very like able.

Just love Monty Python!!

That's just not true for Buddhism, only for Hinduism is that true because Hindus believe that the Truth is a non-conceptual and formless ground of all being. No need to deny this, because it's written all over the Upanishads and the Puranas.

In Buddhism, it's about how the experience is intuitively understood, which clarifies the experience and empties it of clinging.

Oh it was asked for. Also, discussion and philosophizing as well as debating is all a part of Buddhist practice. So, I'll probably keep going with it since some people enjoy it. Of course, you, 3bob and Dwai are not a part of the enjoying group. I'm not a big fan of the anti-intellectual, experiential excuse for ignorance, lacking the integrity to investigate deeper movement.

Your so sweet when your view is challenged 3bob.

Gotta see it!! I'm looking forward to seeing it at I-Max.

Vajrayana is different. So, I can appreciate what you are saying when it comes to Taoism, but actually, Vajrayana is all one path and the practices are all complimentary for the most part. This is not a black and white statement as you have to know for yourself and your teacher will know. In Vajrayana one can have 1 or 2 root Gurus, but many teachers for different practices. The Dalai Lama has transmission in so many practices and traditions, but he has a Root Guru and his heart practice is Dzogchen. But, he is qualified to teach and give transmission in other practices and lineages within Vajrayana. With all that said, it's true that one practice can take you to enlightenment, I'm just saying that in Vajrayana, enlightenment is not the end but only the beginning.

In Vajrayana Buddhism, all grandmasters may have the same clear level of awareness, but their techniques, ways of expressions and practice transmissions will differ. So, even after enlightenment, one may still seek out new techniques, teachings and methods, in order to benefit more people through mastering more techniques to teach others in order to meet the multifarious ways of personal psychologies as the vow in Mahayana Buddhism is to attain enlightenment for the sake of all beings. Thus, in this sense, enlightenment or grandmastership is merely the beginning of an endless journey of discovery and dissemination. So it seems.

Like a bank... the more you put in the more you get out. Or like a muscle... the more you work it the stronger it gets. Yes... I think so.

So, what I was saying basically is that "True Self" in Buddhism (i.e., Parinirvana Sutra) arises dependent upon this insight of mutual-co-existence. So, it's more of an ongoing intention based upon the permanent cognition of inter-dependence and impermanence, thus empathy and compassion. So, the "True Self" is really just compassionate intention arising dependent upon recognition of inter-connectivity, meaning the recognition of what is for all.

That's a very interesting interpretation. Thanks!

Mutual... I edited the post you just quoted for the sake of just that... please re-read if you have the inclination?

I know... I'm pretty repetitive. I just figure that some need a particular context to realize the truth of something on a very deep level. So I keep trying to slip the same thing in different contexts to see if the perception of that thing changes for anyone? LOL!! I don't know... is it working?

Well, you were talking about a faceless awareness that wears many faces, as if that awareness was static, like a mannequin that wears many clothes. But, in Buddhism, both awareness and objects arise simultaneously, and one is not more the source of the other than the other. Because we are dealing with endless awarenesses and endless groups of objects, all co-originating and inter-woven and inter-dependently arisen, there is no point of origin for anything. But, there is a point of origin to find for the state of ignorant awareness and awake awareness for an individual, which is the crutch of enlightenment, but that is not an eternal essence, only an eternal potential. Words are funny yes... and I deeply apologize if I was misunderstanding you and projecting other conversations with other people onto yours. I bow to your penny-ness. Heaven.

Marble is just being silly, with some meaning in there somewhere... in metaphor. =^)

Empathy naturally arises when one realizes interdependence.

Actually, they are all connected and the Buddha explains this in Mahayana Sutras. I wish I could remember exactly which one, but there are a few. The Flower Garland Sutra talks about the interpenetration of all states and realms and since the different jhanas lead to different realms, it goes for those as well. Enlightenment in Buddhism is insight into what is, not a merging with a transcendent "is". That would be reifying a formless samadhi and nothing more. As well, consciousness is still dependently originated. You are trying to find a final Self, but the continuum of dependent origination is instantaneous, and all equally empty of inherent essence, even Buddhanature. Also, the experience of a transcendent Self arises dependent upon a subtle clinging in the alayavijnana and is reflective of reifying one of the formless jhanas, which is actually the basis for the alayavijnana. This is the seed of becoming. Recognizing it's origination as endlessly dependent, empties it of this knot, thus changing it's basis from bondage to liberation. So, for a Buddha, the alayavijana transforms into the experience of dharmakaya. His experience of Nirvana as what is called the 9th jhana is not actually an absorption or a formless samadhi and is clearly not a revelation of a Self of all. It's only the revelation of liberating insight. By projecting Hindu conditioning upon Buddhism one doesn't understand the Buddha. No Buddhist with any real scholarly understanding and experience based upon the 1st noble truth of "right view" would agree with the intention of the above quoted idea. Enlightenment in Buddhism is the awareness of Kadag and Lundrup. This is basically emptiness and dependent origination, which is primordial purity and natural arising. As in awareness of the emptiness of what arises dependently is the recognition of the primordial purity of natural arising. The recognition of the emptiness of all things unbinds ones awareness, de-conditions ones thought patterns and unties the knot of becoming. The insight of dependent origination empties ones awareness of the tendency for grasping, leaving it luminous and clear. If you are a sentient being, awareness is intrinsic as you have consciousness, thus you have Buddhanature. A stone does not have Buddhanature. Thus, Buddhanature and the concept of Brahman are not the same. The Upanishads and the Suttas and Sutras have an entirely different theory and thus experience of what constitutes enlightenment and liberation.

This "True Self" is merely the reification of one of the formless Jhanas. As explained by the Buddha, so the Buddha still rejects the Upanishadic transcendent Self, as this ideation reflects a subtle clinging based upon a lack of insight into dependent origination/emptiness. The Buddha explained how this clinging leads either to a long lived God realm with Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva... or a formless bliss realm. This attachment to a subtle and static essence does not lead to Nirvana, as explained by the Buddha. For Samsarins, the blessing of Buddhist transmission and refuge is needed to understand the Buddha. From Wiki: The Arupa Jhānas Beyond the four jhānas lie four attainments, referred to in the early texts as aruppas. These are also referred to in commentarial literature as immaterial/the formless jhānas (arūpajhānas), also translated as The Formless Dimensions: Dimension of Infinite Space - In the dimension of infinite space there are - "the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention" Dimension of Infinite Consciousness - In the Dimension of infinite consciousness there are - "the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention" Dimension of Nothingness - In the dimension of nothingness, there are - "the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention" Dimension of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception - About the role of this jhana it is said: "He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him." In the suttas, these are never referred to as jhānas. According to the early scriptures, the Buddha learned the last two formless attainments from two teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta respectively, prior to his enlightenment. It is most likely that they belonged to the Brahmanical tradition. However, he realized that neither "Dimension of Nothingness" nor "Dimension of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception" lead to Nirvana and left. The Buddha said in the Ariyapariyesana Sutta: ”But the thought occurred to me, ‘This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.” Also, the Prajnaparamita Sutra says very clearly that there is no universal Self of all.

Wow! That's awesome! Thanks for sharing that.

Wonderful!

Have you read Crystal and the Way of Light? It'll give you greater context than the Wiki article. I agree, it's all good info.