forestofclarity

Basically, it is a step-by-step to go from qi ball to the "qigong state of mind" so you can "swim." Sort of a back door, cheater's way.

Correct, I made the edit.

I enjoy D&T a lot. Bruce's system gets some flak on here, and his persona can be a bit off-putting, but it is the only qigong I've done that has healed my back (combined with energy gates standing). It has also helped my own meditation practices tremendously. Bruce's teachings dovetail nicely with Tibetan practices. Damo's MCO course is not suggested for beginners, but it is free. Also, he has a Foundations course you can look at on Vimeo. In both cases, I am skeptical about how much one can learn via online without in-person adjustments.

Yes, I wonder if the extra time is worth it, which is why I haven't messed with it. Maybe a few minutes before standing?

Did anyone actually experiment with this shaking?

I was a throat breather, until I started to do breath meditation at the abdomen. I found that my breath naturally sank. Interestingly, it has been pointed out that one can not only breath down to the abdomen, but also up the back.

I've always thought freedom, ease of mind, and compassion were a nice way to tell. If you have it, the physical signs don't matter. If you have the physical signs but not the freedom, ease of mind, and compassion then the physical signs again don't really matter. But any sign does not necessarily mean that the lack of the sign or the opposite of the sign means that there is no progress. I've noticed that there are often upheavals which back it seem as though one is even worse than before. However, once these subside (or are used for practice), the practice appears much stronger than before.

I suppose it depends on your specific practice and tradition, but many people get distracted by their imagination. It is easy to imagine things happening that are not actually happening. Do you have dreams? Inner mental dialogue?

Can you still cultivate? Of course. It may be better to not visualize.

Fun fact for today--- the Speed of Light is calculated by the ancients 14th Century? तरणिर्विश्वदर्शतो जयोतिष्क्र्दसि सूर्य | विश्वमा भासिरोचनम | taraNir vishvadarshato jyotishkrdasi surya | vishvamaa bhaasirochanam || which means “Swift and all beautiful art thou, O Surya (Surya=Sun), maker of the light, Illuming all the radiant realm.” Commenting on this verse in his Rigvedic commentary, Sayana who was a minister in the court of Bukka of the great Vijayanagar Empire of Karnataka in South India (in early 14th century) says: tatha ca smaryate yojananam. sahasre dve dve sate dve ca yojane ekena nimishardhena kramaman. which means “It is remembered here that Sun (light) traverses 2,202 yojanas in half a nimisha” NOTE: Nimisharda= half of a nimisha In the vedas Yojana is a unit of distance and Nimisha is a unit of time. Unit of Time: Nimesa The Moksha dharma parva of Shanti Parva in Mahabharata describes Nimisha as follows: 15 Nimisha = 1 Kastha 30 Kashta = 1 Kala 30.3 Kala = 1 Muhurta 30 Muhurtas = 1 Diva-Ratri (Day-Night) We know Day-Night is 24 hours So we get 24 hours = 30 x 30.3 x 30 x 15 nimisha in other words 409050 nimisha We know 1 hour = 60 x 60 = 3600 seconds So 24 hours = 24 x 3600 seconds = 409050 nimisha 409050 nimesa = 86,400 seconds 1 nimesa = 0.2112 seconds (This is a recursive decimal! Wink of an eye=.2112 seconds!) 1/2 nimesa = 0.1056 seconds Unit of Distance: Yojana Yojana is defined in Chapter 6 of Book 1 of the ancient vedic text “Vishnu Purana” as follows 10 ParamAnus = 1 Parasúkshma 10 Parasúkshmas = 1 Trasarenu 10 Trasarenus = 1 Mahírajas (particle of dust) 10 Mahírajas= 1 Bálágra (hair’s point) 10 Bálágra = 1 Likhsha 10 Likhsha= 1 Yuka 10 Yukas = 1 Yavodara (heart of barley) 10 Yavodaras = 1 Yava (barley grain of middle size) 10 Yava = 1 Angula (1.89 cm or approx 3/4 inch) 6 fingers = 1 Pada (the breadth of it) 2 Padas = 1 Vitasti (span) 2 Vitasti = 1 Hasta (cubit) 4 Hastas = a Dhanu, a Danda, or pauruSa (a man’s height), or 2 Nárikás = 6 feet 2000 Dhanus = 1 Gavyuti (distance to which a cow’s call or lowing can be heard) = 12000 feet 4 Gavyutis = 1 Yojana = 9.09 miles Calculation: So now we can calculate what is the value of the speed of light in modern units based on the value given as 2202 yojanas in 1/2 nimesa = 2202 x 9.09 miles per 0.1056 seconds = 20016.18 miles per 0.1056 seconds = 189547 miles per second !! As per the modern science speed of light is 186000 miles per second ! https://www.booksfact.com/vedas/rig-veda/speed-of-light-calculated-in-vedas-of-ancient-india.html

Interestingly, this got scrubbed out of wikipedia, under the speed of light history, whereas other less compelling (European and Islamic) sources were left in.

I listened to another slice of the interview. He reminds me of both Bodri (but more concise and to the point) and Verdesi (but less.. well, probably better not to say. I can see having a nice meal and a drink with Damo). An interesting point was made on the danger of Taoism. He talks about how some one who is an amateur hedonist may, upon practicing nei gong, become a professional hedonist since one would fuel whatever one's energy patterning is. He also talks about increasing will. He says it is important to apply insight, so the states generated can be sustained with increased qi (or so I'm paraphrasing). Interestingly, if a Taoist were incorrect about their view, and they build up an ability fuel the wrong state and they have improved their willpower, I can see that it would be difficult if not impossible to correct. Similarly, if one developed a high level of shamatha, and then applied it to the wrong object, it would likely also be difficult to correct. I suppose one has to be quite confident in one's teacher for such an approach.

I would agree, since from a Buddhist POV the sense of self is illusory. Even from a True Self model, one might say that the sense of self is merely an object illuminated by the Self, a false self, a contraction. But I suppose it depends on the teacher/teaching.

Not just in the body. There's no barrier between inside/outside, IME. Ummm.. .where do you suppose the body appears?

I can say having practiced with and without body-type of practices that I prefer the with. Practice is easier if your qi is settled, your body isn't hurting, and you're not depressed. Also, the qi-stuff can smooth out some of the upheavals that meditation can bring. Also, working with qi can be a bit of a shortcut. I actually prefer the Taoist over the Buddhist approach as Taoist can be smoother and more circular than the (Tibetan) Buddhist. But that's just my opinion. But if realization needs fuel, then one would think when a master gets sick, ages, and dies, their realization would suffer, but this is certainly not the case IME.

I've heard it both ways. Some teachers and texts discuss it as a building up, and others as an uncovering.

The sutta says that these powers may be developed if "the monk directs and inclines it." In fact, the supreme siddhi is always enlightenment, as in this sutta. And the Buddha came down hard when asked to demonstrate siddhis to gain followers: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN11.html But consider this. A person is stuck in a literal nightmare. They are being attacked by demons, let's say. And somehow, a teacher appears to that person. Now which would be the better solution: teaching the person to fly and fight the demons, or teaching the person that it is just a dream? Once you get a handle on the dreamlike nature, the siddhis really don't seem that impressive. And the siddhis are karmic anyway. Not everyone develops the same ones or in the same way-- look at the Buddha's disciples and their various siddhis. In Tibetan Buddhism, it is sometimes said "if you gain the ability to fly, don't fly over a large body of water." If you are a layperson, with limited time, you like to have sex and mingle with the stressors of the world, then focusing on the supreme siddhi probably makes more sense than focusing on the mundane siddhis. And you can tell if the teaching is sound due to the diminishment of suffering. You can't really fake your way out of that one.

I would invite stepping away from either/or thinking. Just because intense jhana is not the only way doesn't mean anything goes. Most intense samadhi/jhana (and I've not heard about this 'for days thing,' certainly is not one of the signs of jhana in the suttas--- I don't think even B. Alan Wallace goes that far) practices were given to celibate monks. But again, there is no agreement in the sources or lineages about how much and how intense. As stated, in Theravada, the minimum is access concentration, the fourth jhana. So to select one and say "only this is authentic" kind of misses the point. Other methods were developed and given to lay people, or working monks for example. But this doesn't mean the opposite is true, and anything goes. The "pragmatic dharma" is just as unsupportable as the "ascetic extreme," and I take issue with it as well. Ven Analayo wrote a striking critique on that as well. https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/analayo-meditation-maps-attainment-claims-and-the-adversities-of-mindfulness/17144

I don't get my Buddhism from books, sorry.

What's your source for that statement, or any of your statements about jhana please? If you want to freshen up on jhanas from a tradiitonal POV, grounded in Abdhidharma, then you can read these articles. Even traditionally, the minimum is access concentration (upacarasamadhi). https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Samatha-yana and Vipassana-yana_Cousins_1984.pdf The strength and intensity of jhana is up for considerable debate, a part of the so-called "jhana wars." http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyāna_in_Buddhism#Contemporary_reassessment_-_the_"Jhana_wars" Of course, all of that applies to Theravada, and we're not even scratching the surface of Mahayana.

Sure. One does not jump straight into Buddhahood. Formal practice is very important, especially for those of us who aren't fully realized. And exchanging worldly desires for dharmic desires is usually a part of the path, and of course reducing many desires to one (the desire for nirvana, or for Bodhisattvas, the desire to liberate all beings) can be quite skillful. Acting like we're fully realized can be a big, big problem. But we can also collect techniques, empowerments, mantras, spiritual experiences, etc. the same way we collect material things. In that sense, it may be just more samsara (i.e. replacing metal handcuffs with golden ones).

Interesting points, LL. I'll share my thoughts. I think so. Tulku Urgyen Rinpoch said, "If you've had a good meditation, or a bad meditation, you haven't had a meditation." And his son, Mingyur Rinpoche says "The expectations that you bring to your meditation are often the greatest obstacles you will encounter." As Tilopa said to Naropa, "My son, appearance does not bind you, it's your grasping that binds you." So the problem is grasping, as set forth by the Buddha in the second Noble truth. I would offer that the practice is to overcome this habitual grasping that we have developed. Typically, the practices are twofold: with a shamatha component and a vipassana component. Shamatha takes many forms, but basically it is about tranquility or calming the mind. But it is the insight or vipassana component that generally has the ability to liberate. People who grasp at meditation experiences are usually said to be cultivating a rebirth as an animal (for cultivating dullness) or the god realms (for the higher states). However, to steal a phrase from Rob Burbea, it is the "seeing that frees," i.e. the insights as set forth in the practices. Now generally, as shamatha increases, vipassana becomes easier, and vipassana itself is calming to the mind. So these are actually quite dynamic, even in the Pali sources. However, I would proffer that the basic model is not about extending a cultivated experience, but rather removing something --- namely, ignorance and grasping. In addition, it is generally well taught that shamatha, as it depends on causes and conditions, cannot be made permanent. All conditioned phenomenon are impermanent. What is considered unconditioned in the Abhidharma is space and nirvana. But nirvana is not constructed, rather it arises when ignorance is removed. It reminds me of TTC 48: "Pursue knowledge, daily gain. Pursue Tao, daily loss. Loss and more loss, until one reaches non-action." (Derek Lin trans.).

It seems to me that Astral Projection is a form of lucid dreaming.

He notes in his BATGAP interview (15-17:00) that Taoist alchemy is used to fuel and stabilize a state of being, specifically awakening. He then states that people may have a meditation experience (the example he uses is a unity experience), but lacking the underlying energetic support, this experience fades. I found this interesting, because from a Buddhist POV, this is exactly the opposite approach. Meditation experiences are often referred to as "makyo" in Zen and "nyams" in Tibetan. Rather than attempt to stabilize or prolong them, they are to be let go of because, as with everything else, they are impermanent, not self, and dissatisfying.