forestofclarity

That is certainly one view of emptiness.

Me, too.

If I may ask, what is the difference between pure, objectless consciousness and nothing at all?

I know from my experience with fast noting that it will induce altered states of consciousness. Very destabilizing.

If I had to guess, you're tired and meditation just reveals that to you. Sometimes what we need is regular, good sleep.

A question for the scholars and scholar-warriors: According to traditional Taoist sources and teachers (traditional or modern), is the source of the world the same as the source of one's thoughts? Either way, can you point me to the teachings? I'm more curious as to what Taoist texts and teachers have to say than personal opinions as to this point.

It is easy to experience ignorance as an obscuration. For instance, we may see one object that looks like another, like a chair with a shirt draped over it that, in the shadows, appears to be a human being. Once we realize the truth, the raw experience doesn't change, but the realization does. That's why I bring realized masters into this. As for my path, I would hope that you leave that to me. I don't personally believe that Advaita is "flawed", only our understanding of it.

I believe that I am aware of all my thoughts. I've been looking at this over the past few days in the course of this discussion. I don't believe that thoughts can exist independent of awareness. What would an unaware thought be? Much like an unseen color or an unheard object, I suppose. Taken one step further, I don't think objects can exist outside of awareness, either, at least not in any way we can understand.

I don't think the 1st question was answered. Boy suggests that Brahman appears as Atman, but this doesn't make sense as Brahman is formless, indescribable, etc. One thing I've never been able to understand about Vedanta is the relation between Brahman and the universe. If Brahman is permanent, how then the changing world? The answer I've gotten in the past is that the world only appears to change, but it actually does not change. As for the wave in the ocean, if the wave is pure consciousness, and the ocean is made of waves, then I would in fact expect the ocean to know all the waves. Vedantins in the past have said that there are limits. Yet how could anything obscure or limit pure consciousness? And if a master is realized, and has ended ignorance, why are they still bound?

Lama Tsongkapa may be hazardous to one's ego. Guy Newland's Introduction to Emptiness was a watershed for me.

This is a very interesting article. I see the author draws not just from traditional vedanta, but also from Madhyamaka. The question arises: why is there a separate term for atman as for Brahman? And why aren't realized masters omniscient?

It can't be done. If it could, whatever it is would have caught on like wildfire.

I don't think dharma teaching is about practice over theory. Right view is, in fact, the first step on the Noble Eight Fold path. The suttas record the Buddha as suspicious of metaphysical speculations, but this has not stopped the reams of speculation that follow in not only the Abhidhamma but in Mahayana sutras and commentaries, so I don't think this is an informed criticism. I do believe that the old Greek philosophers had methods and exercises that transformed the philosopher. But what was written down was the theory portion. Plato alludes to oral teachings in some of his letters. I'm not an expert on Plato or neo-Platonism, but I would think that any Plato-based training would have to account for mind, body, and soul, and not just mental speculation.

What you do then is think of brown monkeys.

How does one practice neoplatonism?

One thing that helps me: when you find yourself defending an opinion, try to argue the other side.

I've found this in Vedanta philosophy. It appeals to common sense and generally how we view the world. For example, things that change very rapidly, like thoughts, are often considered less real than things that change slowly, like physical objects or stones. Consider dreams: they change constantly, night to night, even moment to moment. We consider waking life to be more "real" because it doesn't change as rapidly. The other side is that things that change lack an inner essence. An ice cube, for example, lacks an inner "cube essence" because it easily changes (i.e. melts).

The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding.

For what it's worth, most teachers I've encountered from the Buddhist side have all said that they are different, while people from the monotheistic side have said that they are the same. I've been in a unique position to have tasted both, and I would say that they are different. Nirvana, I believe, is not something you gain, but what happens when you lose everything. It is important to remember that the purpose of Buddha dharma is the end of suffering.

Of all the qigong teachers I've encountered, the most compelling for me were the teachings from Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. His basic teaching was open up and let go. His qi theory was that a loose, open body allowed the flow of qi, so it was more important to let go rather than try to focus on one thing. To take it a step further, for me, it is not just stillness that does the trick, but a relaxed, perhaps almost a playful openess. I've been on retreats where I've had amazing mystical experiences after long periods of disciplined concentration. But in life, I get the most energy not out of concentration, but out of letting go of all things (as much as I am able). Strangely, the most profound qi practice I've found is sitting and cultivating letting openness and letting go.

To respond to a few points raised: What is consciousness? I'm taking consciousness to mean awareness, sentience, knowing. I'm open to other definitions. Do I have an experience of deep sleep? I do not. Do others? For me, sleeping is full of various states of consciousness, but at some point, all awareness disappears. The feeling of continuity of sleep is caused, perhaps, by forgotten states of consciousness (dreams, quasi-waking, etc.) than by a continuity of awareness. This also happens at a certain point during certain meditations. Awareness becomes so attenuated, then it is gone. I understand the gaps between thoughts. But what about the gaps between consciousness? My waking consciousness appears to be the same--- the subject appears to be the same each day. Yet I cannot say it is continuous.

No one, by definition, has had an experience of unending consciousness. Many people have had an experience wherein consciousness ceases (or appears to).

Mahayana Sutras with Hsuan Hua's Commentary: http://www.cttbusa.org/sutraswithcommentaries.asp Tipitika, Theravada Suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html A wide variety of all types: http://www.fodian.net/world/index.html Buddhanet E-Books: http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks.htm

This caught my eye--- trying to escape. Trying to escape builds a habit of trying to escape pain and discomfort. Pain and discomfort, I believe, are a part of life. Eventually, we all will have to deal with them. I might suggest cultivating acceptance of the pain--- not by concentrating on it, but by allowing it to arise in a whole body sensation. Typically, I've found that my common reaction to pain is either to dwell on it or suppress it, both unhealthy options. Not only that, but these types of reactions can reinforce a picking and choosing type of mentality that carves up the universe into things we like and things we don't. Rather, I've found that by focusing on the entire body, the pain can be dealt with a larger context. Expanding and accepting rather than contracting or suppressing. I've found this to be useful in my life and practice.

Sri Atmananda worked at a police station for many years until his retirement. A common person with high realization, he wrote his path is some of the most succinct and beautiful language I have come across. http://www.heartofnow.com/files/Atma_Darshan_Nirvriti.pdf