forestofclarity

The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding.

For what it's worth, most teachers I've encountered from the Buddhist side have all said that they are different, while people from the monotheistic side have said that they are the same. I've been in a unique position to have tasted both, and I would say that they are different. Nirvana, I believe, is not something you gain, but what happens when you lose everything. It is important to remember that the purpose of Buddha dharma is the end of suffering.

Of all the qigong teachers I've encountered, the most compelling for me were the teachings from Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. His basic teaching was open up and let go. His qi theory was that a loose, open body allowed the flow of qi, so it was more important to let go rather than try to focus on one thing. To take it a step further, for me, it is not just stillness that does the trick, but a relaxed, perhaps almost a playful openess. I've been on retreats where I've had amazing mystical experiences after long periods of disciplined concentration. But in life, I get the most energy not out of concentration, but out of letting go of all things (as much as I am able). Strangely, the most profound qi practice I've found is sitting and cultivating letting openness and letting go.

To respond to a few points raised: What is consciousness? I'm taking consciousness to mean awareness, sentience, knowing. I'm open to other definitions. Do I have an experience of deep sleep? I do not. Do others? For me, sleeping is full of various states of consciousness, but at some point, all awareness disappears. The feeling of continuity of sleep is caused, perhaps, by forgotten states of consciousness (dreams, quasi-waking, etc.) than by a continuity of awareness. This also happens at a certain point during certain meditations. Awareness becomes so attenuated, then it is gone. I understand the gaps between thoughts. But what about the gaps between consciousness? My waking consciousness appears to be the same--- the subject appears to be the same each day. Yet I cannot say it is continuous.

No one, by definition, has had an experience of unending consciousness. Many people have had an experience wherein consciousness ceases (or appears to).

Mahayana Sutras with Hsuan Hua's Commentary: http://www.cttbusa.org/sutraswithcommentaries.asp Tipitika, Theravada Suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html A wide variety of all types: http://www.fodian.net/world/index.html Buddhanet E-Books: http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks.htm

This caught my eye--- trying to escape. Trying to escape builds a habit of trying to escape pain and discomfort. Pain and discomfort, I believe, are a part of life. Eventually, we all will have to deal with them. I might suggest cultivating acceptance of the pain--- not by concentrating on it, but by allowing it to arise in a whole body sensation. Typically, I've found that my common reaction to pain is either to dwell on it or suppress it, both unhealthy options. Not only that, but these types of reactions can reinforce a picking and choosing type of mentality that carves up the universe into things we like and things we don't. Rather, I've found that by focusing on the entire body, the pain can be dealt with a larger context. Expanding and accepting rather than contracting or suppressing. I've found this to be useful in my life and practice.

Sri Atmananda worked at a police station for many years until his retirement. A common person with high realization, he wrote his path is some of the most succinct and beautiful language I have come across. http://www.heartofnow.com/files/Atma_Darshan_Nirvriti.pdf

That's not necessarily the case. Bodily repulsion is a different meditation. I learned the traditional 32 parts of the body meditation on my last retreat, and it had nothing to do with repulsion.

What about when you go to sleep?

I've recently made a significant change in reducing meat over the past few weeks. Quite frankly, I feel better, lighter, more "sattvic."

Wilhelm doesn't translate the whole thing, and his translation is colored by his teacher who was helping him. Further, Wilhelm translated from Chinese to German, which was then translated into English. Also, WIlhelm uses strange Christian and Jungian words, such as anima and animus. Bottom line, Wilhelm's translation teaches a version of the MCO and Cleary's teaches a version of awareness training.

I vote Cleary. It was helpful for me.

Not to wade into this discussion, but this is not necessarily true. Correlation does not mean causation. One of my old friends used to say, the rooster crows. The sun rises. Does the rooster make the sun rise? Consider speech. Speech occurs in the mouth. You can correlate oral position of my teeth, tongue, and haw to every word that I speak. If my mouth is damaged, my ability to speak is impaired. Therefore, speech is contained in the mouth. You can make the same argument that hearing is in the ear, vision in the eye, and so on.

Here is how I learned the Heart Sutra in a Zen group: We repeated it every time we sat. After about a year or so, I had it pretty well inscribed into my mind. Then, as I went about my life and meditation, I would suddenly realize "oh, this is what that means!" This is an ongoing process. In fact, I would say my whole spiritual "path" is just a few ideas that keep getting deeper and deeper and transforming me in the process.

Personally, I don't believe we can undo in one hour what we spend 23 hours building up. I think if one wishes to address anger issues, one needs to look at our daily life. Meditation is good in that you can practice key skills--- non-attachment, concentration, relaxation--- but unless these skills are taken into and applied to daily life, they won't solve the problem.

A lot of people are misled (in my mind) into the same conclusion you draw here from Buddhist teaching. I've been told it is a common misperception in Western monasteries. But Buddhist teaching is like peanuts. It can taste good, or make you sick, depending on who you are and how you take it.

So is pain an inherent quality of fires and sharp corners?

You can also use strong effort AND mindfulness to learn first hand the emptiness of achievement and loss. Of course, it is an ongoing process, not so much a one time lesson. In Seven Taoist Masters, there is a story about a student who overcame sex by going to brothels and discovering first hand the impact it had on his mind/body.

Personally, I would worry less about so-called "heavens" outside and focus on the inner workings of the mind and skandhas and see how ignorance and clinging is created in everyday life.

For those who are interested, the website Stillness Speaks has an offer for a free-- or $20 off-- their non-duality DVDs. S&H was $6 for the one I ordered. Enjoy! http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/

So a while ago, I decided to drop all of my energy practices and stick with simple meditation. Mainly I practice in the Buddhist tradition. But then I was reading the Book of Balance and Harmony and was struck, as though hit by a bolt of thunder, by this excerpt: I can sense the spirit of Lao and Zhuang in these lines. I don't say a "Taoist" spirit, because then we already have partiality. If we make things Taoist and Buddhist, then we have imposed a human made pattern on the world. This excerpt got me wondering about the age old debate of intentional practices vs. unintentional practices. I've been toying with the idea of late that the issue with energy isn't that our energies aren't flowing in the right pattern, but that we attempt to impose a pattern on them at all. So it seems that the issue is not which pattern to impose, but in ceasing patterns and allowing the natural flow to appear. What say the Taobums?

It strikes me that the problem isn't about having enough forums. It's about people drowning threads in posts. This could be solved with a modified term of service and moderation. It seems strange to re-arrange the entire forum.

Actually, that is not true. Theoretically, perhaps, but not in practice. VERY few practitioners teach the 5 skandhas in the U.S. I only learned it through Bhante G's center. The teachings on paper are not the same as the teachings in the flesh.