forestofclarity

My take so far: Arriving at the Tao is not difficult Just become disgusted with picking and choosing Only stop loving and hating True realization appears

Have a beer, but invite your emotions. Look at them closely. What are they, anyway? Where does the emotion occur? What's the difference between an emotion and a thought?

Who cares? Trees still bloom in the spring. If it is Mr. Yudelove, wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss points of practice?

I think this is an oversimplification, of both Taoism and Buddhism. First, traditionally in the Pali Canon, one is taught to meditate in the four positions of sitting, standing, lying down, and moving about. Moving meditation has been a part of Buddhism from the beginning. Many Buddhists practice qi gong and tai chi. Second, what you call Taoist practice seems to be mainly "Taoist health practices." The Tso-Wang Lun (Treatise on Abiding in Forgetfulness), for instance, doesn't talk about any of this. The Taoist criticism of Buddhism is usually that Buddhism focuses on Xing, while Taoists start on Ming and then cultivate Xing. It doesn't say forget the Xing! Third, to say the Buddhist way has little or nothing to do with thinking your way out of anything. It is about realizing truth, not thinking about it.

I was listening about this today, and actually the koan is "What is the sound of one hand?" This makes more sense.

I found this interesting article which explains many of the mysterious workings of the Taobums over the years. http://www.hsuyun.org/chan/en/features/out...eck-stages.html The short view is: there are four basic stages of spiritual development. The author noticed a trend in his psychotherapy practice: some people would become religious after therapy, and others less so. So he discovered the pattern of evolution: I. Selfish, self-centered, willing to lie, cheat, and steal. II. Fundamentalist view. Attached to the outward forms of religion. Ranges from light to extreme. III. Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic. Questions things. Uses logic and reason. IV. Mystic, communal. All things are unified. Accordingly, the phases will increase in number, but those 2 steps ahead will not be understood. So now we can answer things like: Why can't the Taobums agree on even simple spiritual matters? Because we're all in different phases. Why do Taoists argue with Buddhists, and vice versa? Obviously some Phase II views, missing the forest for the trees (or attaching to the manifest over the transcendental) (or seeing the 10,000 things over the Tao). Why are the Buddhabums always arguing with Dwai about atman/anatta? Phase II views, whereas drawing analogies between Advaita and Buddhism is a phase IV activity. Phase II will never see it. Why are there atheists/agnostics here? They may be going through spiritual growth, from III - IV. Let the arguing begin. Or not. Whatever.

Tian Shi, The Ch'an masters of old warned their students against seeking a Buddha outside their own mind. If you want to find the answers to your questions, you have to look for them.

I really love this site. You can enter whole lines of text and see the translations. I've been using Kanji Networks for etymology. I'd love to find a better one, though.

BTW, I found yet another translation here, along with other Taoist books: http://webspace.webring.com/people/da/akrishi/goflower/ I like it because it has the Chinese, which allows an inept beginner like myself to second guess the translations! I did notice that it tends closer to Wilhelm than Cleary.

I am not happy with these translations--- I feel the English loses some of the nuances of the Chinese. Here is how I "translate" (given I'm just a beginner with the internet) the first few lines: Arriving at the Tao is not difficult Just hate picking and choosing (I'm still working on 3; something along the lines of "Cast away hate and love") Then appears true enlightenment-- Then true enlightenment appears One thing I find interesting is that in line three, the sun character is hidden, then by line four, it comes smashing out. What is revealed in the characters, but not necessarily the English, is the idea that enlightenment is not gained, rather it is revealed--- it is the natural state.

There is a part about the clan ancestor.

What did he say?

This is much of what I have found, too. Gurdjieff described religion as containing three levels: an external level for the public, manifesting in rites and rituals, temples, ceremonies, moral rules, and so on. There is a mesoteric level, for Taoism, this makes me think of yogic energy work. Then there is the esoteric, or true core. At the exoteric level, there are many differences, just like at the level of the human body. At the core, the heart or true essence, religions, like people, are identical.

The intersection between Chan and Tao is one of my great interests. I think it is impossible to understand Chan without understanding Tao, and an understanding of Chan refines one's understanding of the Tao. Taoism can have a harmonizing and grounding effect on Buddhist practice, and Buddhist practice can keep one's Taoism from becoming dull and lifeless.

Check out TTC 38 for the involution and evolution of this. Under Red Pine's trans: Virtue --> kindness --> justice --> ritual So then we start with ritual (following precepts) until we build our sense of fairness, then kindness begins to blossom.

Taobums always makes me more spinning than shining--- but that's one reason I come.

How do you define "limit" and "thing"?

TianShi--- thanks for your help. If Ultimate Tao can also be translated as Ultimate Ancestor, then this explains something in the 100 character stele.

Sometimes there are secrets so that the student can figure it out for oneself. Too much openness can make some things banal and common place. There is sharing too little and sharing too much. Koan practice, evidently, used to be done in public. But then people started copying responses, and instead of providing answers, they were parroting what they thought was right. Don't throw your pearls before swine, and all that.

This is a most wonderful book. It is so simple, that most people think it's too basic. But in fact, I believe it is very advanced.

Enlightenment is: The sky is gray, dark, full of angry, menacing clouds. The wind picks up, and either suddenly or slowly, the clouds drift away. Now the sun is shining, clear and bright.

It's one thing to disagree, and another to be mean. I wonder how much better off the world would be if people forgot about spirituality and just tried to be COURTEOUS. Personally, when I find something offensive here, I try to use it as an opportunity to learn about myself.

Traditionally, the Skandha of form was the body or matter, and all the others up to Vijnana were considered mind. You will find a lot of Theravada talk about mind and matter. Vijnana can be translated as "discriminating consciousness". Now, if you fast forward to the Zen masters, you will hear a lot of talk about getting rid of discrimination. So this must not be the mind they are talking about. Ma Tsu thought he could become a Buddha by sitting in meditation. But the master picked up a tile, polishing it to become a mirror. How can polishing a tile make a mirror? How can sitting make a Buddha? This is why I said, Neither.

I don't think its a taboo topic, either. Historically, for every person seeking so-called enlightenment, there are always 100 seeking the powers. I would wager that everyone on this forum either is or had been searching for some sort of powers at one time or another. The question Zhang seems to have is: should I spend my time cultivating powers, then moving on to the Big Game? Shinzen Young has described the pursuit of power as a horizontal axis, and the pursuit of enlightenment as a vertical. The vertical eventually leads to what he calls The Source. The horizontal has no limit, it goes on forever. If he's right (and I'll leave that for each of us to decide), then pursuing enlightenment may lead to power, but pursuing power may not lead to enlightenment. In fact, pursuing power may lead to pursuing more power, and on and on. A person may have great power, but still suffer. But some one who has gone beyond suffering won't care whether or not they have power. His advice was to find the source, than develop the powers to help others if you choose.