forestofclarity

We have non-conceptual experiences all the time, they are the qualia or basic building blocks of experience. From at least one Buddhist perspective, the pure taste of ice cream is non-conceptual, the coldness, the light solidity and soft texture of the cone, etc. (form). The feeling of liking it may then arise (feeling), the beginning of concepts, and everything that follows is conceptual. Then the mind pulls all these sensations together (perception). Then there's all sorts of thoughts, feelings, activities and so on, the buzzing reverie of ideas, feelings, and actions (impulses). The ice cream cone, you, the background is all pulled into a coherent picture: I am enjoying this ice cream cone (consciousness) and want to have another bite. But what if instead of getting caught up in the buzzing reverie, we let that initial taste arise and then fade? What if we let our attention dissolve the same way the taste dissolves? What if we don't draw all the lines around the cone, ourselves, and the background, and run down all the habitual paths?

The unholy trinity of Everand, Kindle, and Scribd mostly. But I'm also buying hard copies. It seems very syncretic. It also includes things I have not seen openly described. Are there other Advaita texts using goddess symbology? I get the point, although in some teachings, duality is polarity. In other words, there is always a third that unified the two. The other is eliminating the distinction between imminent and transcendent. The transcendent is imminent, and the imminent is transcendent, and there is really isn't a bright line to distinguish one from the other. But the point I was driving at is that the practices changes depending on your conceptual view of the absolute. If one feels they must reach a permanent state of nirvikalpa samadhi, a la Samkhya, then it makes sense to renounce the world, still thoughts, etc. On the other hand, if everything is divine, then endless creation is not problematic. In these instances, nothing to done to avoid or eliminate various states and objects.

So… care to define it?

I would imagine that would be vicara. Ekkagata can also mean unification, i.e., I don't think the suttas explain how large or small the "point" is. But it can also mean predominated by, in the direction of, one with, etc. and is a universal factor per Adbhidhamma. I think in a jhana context we usually have ekodibhāva, which sounds to me like a unified state rather than being focused on a singular object, but again the one can be variously defined. Zest I would tend to associate more with viriya, or energy, but who is to say. The thing about using piti as a focus is that it tends to develop a feedback loop into deeper relaxation. At any rate, I've seen different teachers gloss the same suttas differently to fit whatever method they happen to teach. But this is the whole issue. Even a single word has many, and possibly infinite meanings, as it should given emptiness.

So I ended up reading most of the Tripura Rahashya during my recent trip. I must say, it ranks up there are one of my favorite scriptures of all time. For translations, I would recommend the updated SAMVID translation along with the Steps to Samadhi translations. Both of them have things the other doesn't. One ingenious thing I enjoy about these kinds of scriptures is the story inside a story method. This is an interesting model because it can apply in different ways--- it wouldn't matter if we consider this the same state of all beings, or a similar state across multiple beings. However, the question is whether this underlying state is inherently still, as a Samkhyan (and possibly Theravedan) might have it, or creative, as a Tantric might put it, or creative as a Tantric may say. It seems that from a more Shaivite/Tantric perspective, instead of interrupt, it would be express. In other words, thoughts and objects are expressions rather than interruptions. And the underlying state is not eternally still, but would contain infinite potential, and accordingly manifest infinitely. This strikes me as being a bit more Daoist than the former. And from this perspective, we can see that all methods are ultimately one method-- that of letting go (even if that is preceded by gnosis). However, a lot of Daoist alchemist talk about building, adding on, and attaining immortality rather than realizing it is already present (which the TTC and ZZ would have me believe). Not sure if that is a provisional teaching or not.

Wrong thread.

Well, no one will change their mind in the moment, for sure. But you never know if something you write touches some one else, maybe even people who aren't posting, or even the person you're addressing months or years later. We don't always see the fruits of our actions, but this doesn't mean they don't flow and blossom in some way beyond the scope of our immediate awareness. Also, it is a self-benefitting process. I enjoy getting into online debates because I like thinking through the issues, combing through books and websites, and go on a little adventure of my own. These little meanderings lead in interesting directions beyond any online clash of opinions.

Leigh B teaches more sutta jhana as opposed to visuddhimagga jhana, so it is canon just not in subsequent commentary. https://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

I'd be curious if you wished to expand on this. I find Chinese presentations compelling, but often obscured by jargon and a lack of oral instruction. I've been checking out this book and like what I'm seeing so far. Interesting point that inverts from Advaita when talking about the perceiver: "In fact, all experience requires change; nothing constant would be experienced at all, since to experience any content requires contrast, and no self is conceiveable apart from experience." (p.33 in my Everand edition) This is the mirror image of Advaita teachings, which state that one cannot know change unless contrasted against an unchanging background.

One reason you see a lot of this is that it is generally forbidden in Vajrayana circles to openly discuss experiential teachings--- (assuming these are even being taught--- I've heard this is not common). Part of this is due to the lack of context, skills, etc. Additionally, the mind has a tendency to create and/or cling to various objects, gross or subtle. There is no such restriction on discussing non-Vajrayana teachings, such as Madhyamaka. In my experience, it is usually Vajrayana students getting into lengthy online emptiness polemics and quote battles, which is ironic given emptiness teachings. But I think at the end of the day, folks are working through their karma.

I am skeptical. But I have an old school definition of enlightenment, as opposed to the folks you regularly encounter on say, BATGAP (not saying this applies to anyone here specifically, just making a general statement). I practiced in the Zen world for some years, mostly in the Katagiri line. One issue I had was that when I had an intellectual concern, I was always told to ignore it, repress it, or set it aside. Sometimes I would get an unsatisfying answer. One story I heard is that Katagiri Roshi went to a students house, and she wanted to show him her collection of dharma books. He looked at it, laughed, and said, "Oh, no, a really big problem!" But for me, if the thinking mind wasn't on board, the practice doesn't follow. I had intellectual knots that could only be undone intellectually. Now of course, the Tibetans tend to go overboard on that side, and the teachings can often dry out and become rote, so to speak, as they become distanced from first hand experience. It sounds positive that you've agreed to the teacher role--- just my (very unpopular) opinion but I think Soto Zen needs more teachers who seem to have actually realized something.

It is also a bit destabilizing. Another reason to work with people and traditions--- they provide a solid anchor for destabilizing periods. But the interesting point you bring up here is what is lost--- the diverse feelings of times and places. If a concert at Red Rocks has the same underlying current as an ancient Church in Rome, have you gained or lost? If you go to the concert for the people buzz, and the Church for the sacred space vibe, then you've definitely lost something. Or perhaps that is the cost of increased equanimity?

Sort of like an undercurrent of a pleasant, vivid, semi-lucid dream.

I know what you mean, but feel that I'm going to opposite way--- space(s) is (are) appearing more similar.

That's true, but it is very rare for some one to "get it" right away. If there wasn't, the would dispense with relative, conventional teachings but they do not. Nagarjuna also states (MMK XXIV:10): As Ju Mipham put forth in the Sword of Wisdom: Nature of mind teachings are precise and it is easy to make mistakes as I know from experience (unless one is immediately enlightened upon pointing out, which is very, very, very rare). Letting go is harder than it sounds IME. Different people have different points of clinging, which is why Vajrayana (and Vedanta) is so vast in my opinion. Our perception literally needs to be refined in many cases. No, all of my Vajrayana teachers are Rime and experientially based (being in the lineage of Changchub Dorje and Tulku Urgyen). I don't identify with any tradition in particular, or any conclusion. There was a well known Dzogchen teacher who I saw some years ago. He said when some one asked if he realized rigpa, he said "I don't know," and seemed sincere. Initially, I thought this was a weakness, but as it turns out, it is a strength.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone, ever. Our experiences are clearly different, and that's ok. As I've said before, feel free to disagree.

I've watched over a thousand hours (or more) of Swami Sarvapriyananda's videos. This is possibly one of the best I have come across. The whole video is great, but the core is probably from 15:00ish-45:00ish. Context: he is explaining the mahavakya Tat Tvam Asi: You are That.

While I agree with much of this post, I think this is a common misunderstanding from a typical Kagyu/Nyingma Buddhist perspective in my experience. This is a common question or suggestion I've seen posed to many teachers and every one of them rejected it. Everything is empty, i.e. it lacks a unitary, independent, permanent self or essence, but not everything is aware. Classic examples are pots and pillars. A pot is empty of a unitary, independent, permanent "pot nature," but we would not say that it is therefore aware. Further, specific to Nyingma based Dzogchen teachings, emptiness is generally considered a non-affirming negation, a minus without a plus. So when we say X is empty, it doesn't not mean that we are asserting anything positive about X. Of course, one is free to disagree with this perspective.

I would say that a proper conceptual understanding can be a precursor to a proper non-conceptual realization, but one is always free to disagree. Typically, we start with conceptual thinking, because that is where most of us are. Next, we replace concepts that are not aligned with the way things are with concepts that are better aligned. Of course, no concept will ever capture it, but some do a better job of leading than others, the same way that using earthly objects can guide one's attention to a faint star in the sky. Finally, we hopefully leap from the proper conceptual to the proper non-conceptual. In other words, leading one from the unreal to the real. But feel free to frame it however you want.

This is one of the things I like least about reality. Terribly inconvenient. I'm not really sure what people mean about reality since it hasn't been defined. In some circles, it tends to mean permanence and independent. Many of the observations here support the illusory nature of reality in this sense, although this appears to be the unpopular opinion in this forum.

Shankara evidently thought this was a sloppy dichotomy, so he developed the idea of mithya as a bridge.

This is a great question for investigation. What does "real" feel like? What is the basis for designation of "real"? What would an illusory tree feel like? How should a tree feel if it wasn't real? The other day, I was touching a mirror with my fingers as a dream state reality check. It was reflective, resistant to my fingers, smooth, and solid to the touch. I tried to push my finger through it, but it didn't budge. It felt like many mirrors I had touched over the course of my life. But in this case, I was dreaming. Sat/asat is usually used in the way we use "real" and "unreal" in my experience.

In an interesting twist, the "momentary" samadhi is translated alternative as "the gap between thoughts" by another translator (although he translates nirdoha from the Yoga Sutras as mastery rather than cessation). The Tripura Rahasya is referred to as an Advaita text Maharshi recommended, but this seems very clearly to be a Tantric text in my opinion.

I would say it depends on the person. People are very different. This is one reason why traditions are so broad and have so many techniques, teachings, etc. One person's essential technique is another person's pitfall. I think one of the largest errors I've come across in the Western spiritual scene is a lack of teaching on errors, mistakes, and side paths. I don't know if it is even a Maharshi quote. As far as I know, he didn't speak English and most quotes come from translated transcripts of his oral teachings. I know that he, like others, initially was in the thought-free camp when he was younger but then become more relaxed about it later. In fact, that quote seems to come straight from the Advaita Bodha Deepika, which itself is a compilation text that was then translated. The status and necessity of nirvikalpa samadhi is hotly debated. But it is not clear to me whether ABD is referring to nirvikalpa samadhi or something else. But (with the above limits in mind), Ramana did not adopt this approach overall. In talk 54, he reportedly says: "Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samAdhi for years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the AchArya emphasising sahaja samAdhi in preference to nirvikalpa samAdhi in his excellent work vivekachUDAmaNi. One should be in spontaneous samAdhi - that is, in one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment." https://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/samadhi_ramana.htm#:~:text=Sri Ramana Maharshi puts it,the world is nirvikalpa samAdhi I bring this up because there are famous, often quoted teachers with widely read English works that give misleading impressions that is often only corrected by oral teachings in person from these teachers or their direct disciples. Even written teachings leave a lot of out that is explained and clarified in person.

Sure, but keep in mind anything I say is only partial, limited, etc. Free of thought means a state where subtle visuals, sounds, feelings, and so on do not arise. Often referred to as a state of stillness. Free from thought means that thoughts come and go, and we don't try to cling to them or push them away. This referred to as movement. In some teachings, stillness= good and movement = bad. Accordingly, we should extend stillness and eliminate movement. The goal would be to have a vacant mind, free of thought. Even better if we can reach a state in which there are no appearances. The best of all is dying and then continuing in that type of state forever. Others disagree and state that movements and appearances are expressions of the divine. Not only that, but stillness and movement are not really two different things, and the underlying stillness is never really lost. The goal in this case is to stop getting confused by and entangled in thoughts and appearances, not in eliminating them in some way. Once unentangled, unobstructed divine expression manifests spontaneously and unimpeded. As Thrangu Rinpoche put it: "It’s quite easy to think that the resting mind and the moving mind have completely different natures, and that when the mind is moving, the stillness has been lost. Some students think that they must clear away the movement before the mind can be at rest. They believe that there is a contradiction between the mind at rest and the mind in motion. In fact, both the resting mind and the moving mind are the union of emptiness and luminosity. We perceive differences due to our confusion. Stillness does not obstruct motion and motion does not obstruct stillness. They are simply one inseparable entity." Hui neng (Platform Sutra trans Red Pine): "Deluded people who cling to the external attributes of a dharma get hold of One Practice Samadhi and just say that sitting motionless, eliminating delusions, and not thinking thoughts are One Practice Samadhi. But if that were true, a dharma like that would be the same as lifelessness and would constitute an obstruction of the Way instead. The Way has to flow freely. Why block it up? The Way flows freely when the mind doesn’t dwell on any dharma. Once it dwells on something, it becomes bound. If sitting motionless were right, Vimalakirti wouldn’t have criticized Shariputra for meditating in the forest." AND "And what do we mean by ‘no-thought’? The teaching of no-thought means to see all dharmas without being attached to any dharma, to reach everywhere without being attached anywhere, to keep your nature pure, so that when the Six Thieves pass through the Six Gates, they neither avoid nor are corrupted by the Six Realms of Sensation but come and go freely. This is the samadhi of prajna. Freedom and liberation constitute the practice of no-thought. But if you don’t think any thoughts at all, the moment you make your thoughts stop, you’re imprisoned by dharmas. We call this a ‘one-sided view.’"