forestofclarity

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Watched Oh God with John Denver and George Burns. I was pleasantly surprised at how light but also deep it was for a 1970's comedy about the doubt and the existence of God.

Interestingly, I do think the presence of a teacher may invoke meditative states by temporarily stilling the mind and potentially allowing additional spiritual states to arise. I also think a lot of us then confuse these temporary states with permanent realization, and thereby miss the point and try to recreate the state. But I do think it is easier to obtain clear knowledge when the mind is relatively stilled in this way. For better or worse, this happening or not happening does tend to color my judgments.

Because I don't really understand your position or what you find authoritative.

Do you follow a teacher/tradition, old3bob?

I'm not sure what people mean by transcendence. It could mean, variously, renunciation, the atman, God, a deep state of samadhi/absorption, manolaya, manonasa, etc.

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Like this thread, but open to all traditions. Self Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness, trans John Myrdhin Reynolds As for this sparkling awareness, which is called "mind," Even though one says that it exists, it does not actually exist. (On the other hand) as a source, it is the origin of the diversity of all the bliss of Nirvana and all of the sorrow of Samsara. And as for it’s being something desirable; it is cherished alike in the Eleven Vehicles. With respect to its having a name, the various names that are applied to it are inconceivable (in their numbers). Some call it "the nature of the mind" or "mind itself." Some Tirthikas call it by the name Atman or "the Self." The Sravakas call it the doctrine of Anatman or "the absence of a self." The Chittamatrins call it by the name Chitta or "the Mind." Some call it the Prajnaparamita or "the Perfection of Wisdom." Some call it the name Tathagata-garbha or "the embryo of Buddhahood." Some call it by the name Mahamudra or "the Great Symbol." Some call it by the name "the Unique Sphere." Some call it by the name Dharmadhatu or "the dimension of Reality." Some call it by the name Alaya or "the basis of everything." And some simply call it by the name "ordinary awareness."

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Mod Note: Threads merged

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Ramana Maharshi as related to Frank Humphreys Also: trans. Natarajan

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-- the Buddha, Lalitavistara Sutra, recollecting his moment of enlightenment

Mod Note: This thread has devolved into quasi-personal attacks. Please decline from this sort of tit-for-tat in the future.

Done

If you think it's aritifical, try to feed yourself on dream food or buy a taco with imagined gold! Distinguishing relative appearances is the wisdom of discernment or discrimination in the traditions I am familiar with. Being unable to distinguish mental illness or relative illusion would be a problem, aka "the two moon problem." Some do, some don't. I try to meet people in their paradigm. Gaudapada is pretty on point with emptiness of conventional phenomenon from a Madhyamaka POV, and so is Shankara. Swami Sarvapriyananda is able to navigate it pretty well, and sees a lot of correlation. Do you follow a tradition, old3bob? It might be easier if you set forth just what you accept as authoritative.

Yes, in Tibetan nomenclature, we would say that things appear conventionally but remain ultimately empty. And yes, the formless realms (arupa loka) is not the same thing emptiness (sunyata). Within the conventional realm, we can also distinguish between valid and invalid perceptions. A hallucination and a mountain and both empty, but once has conventional validity in a way the other doesn't (which is why some distinguish between conventional reality and ultimate emptiness). Of course, some here ascribe to the Pali suttas in particular which tend to posit real atoms of matter and mind, a position rejected by Mahayana. One area of dispute among modern Buddhists is whether gods, devas, etc. are conventionally "real" or merely psychological symbols, or whether the arupa jhanas are actual lokas or merely states of mind.

According to the traditional sources, the formless jhanas are accessing the formless realms.