forestofclarity

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

  I´m at my best when I´m simply reading. 

Something few online posters seem to get. Our conversations here are not private between two people. Who knows how many people read our posts, in the present or sometimes even years in the future? 

6 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Shouldn't it be that (within) as well?

I would say from a Buddhist POV, the physical, mental, and subtle bodies are all connected. A  change in the alignment of the subtle body often has physical and mental components. If it didn't, it wouldn't be useful. Not sure about the Daoists. 

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

reate no change that permeates ones being to the point the body transforms

Untrue, but free to continue to believe that. 

39 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Yeah i also was suprised that he equated the jade fluid with yuanjing. 

It is not unusual for the same terms in spiritual traditions (such as Buddhism and some forms of Daoism) to have more refined and less reified meanings as the student progresses. Which is one reason IMO that strong opinions and ideas literally block progress. 

I note how carefully he handles this. It is not something you're creating or trying to accomplish, but something you are aware of in the event it arises. 

3 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

relativ way and not absolute? 

Because it has form. 

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Why do you think this is controversial?

If I had to guess, because Damo is using "pre-celestial" in a relative way instead of in an ultimate way. Evidently, in the oral tradition, multiple versions are used (not unlike various forms of Buddhism where terms are more refined depending on the context). So some people may listen to this and say it is not neidan it is neigong. 

Also because it is Damo. 

MOD NOTE: Personal insults or attacks on members will not be tolerated. Second insulting post removed and member has been warned. 

12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Could you, if possible  be clearer about who you referring to please.

 

MOD NOTE: The offending post has been removed and the member notified. 

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. 

A few more tips occurred to me. Regarding using the easier sentient beings first, some of the easiest include animals, especially if you have a pet. 

An interesting thing for me is that by studying oneself, an insight begins to open for other beings. Seeing how our delusions form into hindrances and cause suffering, we get first hand experience of how suffering arises for us, and how we want happiness. At some point, we begin to see these same patterns in others--- but we know that others, like us, are struggling to be happy and free and are only acting out of ignorance. This makes it easier to extend compassion to more difficult people. 

On 9/10/2024 at 11:09 AM, Lukks said:

but the simple idea of people making fun, laughing, recording, taking pics etc..

I'm not sure what country you might be in, but I've practiced in public all over the U.S. (including in very conservative Christian areas) and have never gotten any of that. One time, a little boy asked his mom what I was doing when I was doing standing practice and she said "He's working out." Other than that, no one has said anything. Most people are too caught up in their own stories to care as much as we think. Also, a lot of people are generally familiar with tai chi, yoga, etc.  

Does fajin have a point outside of martial arts? 

I don't know any good sources in book or course form personally, but I applaud the effort. I need more metta. I think we all need more metta. From my POV, this is exactly what the board is often missing. The most striking thing about advanced practitioners I've met is the natural radiance of metta. 

One thing I would suggest is that whatever the source, an important tip is to feel the metta, it whatever form it arises, usually in the heart area. Some people repeat phrases or visualize it, which is fine but I think and have been taught it is more important to cultivate the feeling. It may sometimes be barely felt, but like tending to a little a fire it will expand. 

16 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Behind closed doors, these things often serve as a litmus test whether or not transformation is actually happening, or is just some mental fabrication of the practitioner

First off, the mind is much more powerful than you think. Second, most lineages have physical changes involved, but many don't talk about them. We are idea making machines. Once formed, an idea may be nearly impossible to remove. Third, it is more important to walk the road than collect other people's signs, in my opinion. But I have no idea how it will unfold for others. The Dao isn't a one trick pony. 

17 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I practice their systems. I dislike labels

Gravity applies, even if one is not a physicist. 

20 minutes ago, stirling said:

translated by Clarke:

Yes, I like this version. It is interesting to revisit over the years to see how it deepens. 

This:

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

Chinese characters refer to a ‘meaning field’ (rather than to exact meaning like English words do), the context narrows it down.

Is not the same thing as this:

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

The texts mean exactly what they say. But some people prefer to fantasise.

English words do not have exact meanings. Meaning also depends on context. One word may have several denotations, and additional connotations. Not to mention words definitions drift over time. Linguists have tried to create a more exacting language and failed. 

21 hours ago, stirling said:

Seng T'san, Hsin Hsing Ming 

Some one once posted a piece of this, in an effort to point out how confounding the language. It was "good, bad; sick mind." I always thought that was clearer than most translations! This poem cuts to the bone. 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

So again, when people start demonstrating bizarre phenomena like this, you tend to give them an ear

I don't see the connection between power and wisdom. There are many teachings in many traditions. In the Suttas, different disciples had different powers and some had none depending on their karma and disposition. Given that lay followers tend to support those with powers, there is a general ban per the vinaya I believe on discussing one's siddhis and powers since lack of support can end a monk's career. Further, I find that talk of power is quite popular, because it appeals to our baser side--- clinging and craving. These hindrances, per the teachings I've received, block one's progress. 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I was being respectful in acknowledging

All right, I will acknowledge that we have different ways of processing written information, social cues, etc. Here is my limited POV: there are provocative posts that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy. When questioned, there is a tendency to fall back on secrecy or something similar. In exoteric Buddhism, this is sowing doubt in the sangha, which is one of the worst things a Buddhist can do. 

There are mental functions (samskaras) that criticize, rank, and distinguish "good and bad." Typically IME these functions are limited, and imposing limited ideas on the world due to mental habit. These functions tend to weaken as one progresses in my experience and from what I've seen. 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Tantric teachings were around in Ancient Egypt.

Source?

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Im just curious regards your knowledge

One is a fixed point external on the physical body, and one is a point within the body. Concentrating on them has different effects on the body-mind. 

22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

To put it another way. It is for the public.

 

Which is why it is public

That's literally the same thing all esoteric teachings say-- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. 

23 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

they were transmitted orally,

Various groups always say that X teaching is no doubt the original, true teaching of the Buddha, or the higher teaching, or the ultimate teaching, or the teaching the Buddha gave to the nagas, or to the Buddhas favorite disciple, or (insert lineage story here), etc. 

27 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Im not really at liberty

So why mention it at all? 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Tantra existed in writing prior to the VM

I doubt it existed prior to the Samkhya teachings in India, which seem to be where the VM arose from and where I speculate the Buddha probably learned his concentration techniques. But this is speculation. I wasn't there for any of it. 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

What exactly do you think the purpose of that focal point is?

Why do I feel that this is not a question asked sincerely, in the spirit of free and open inquiry? 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Well the thing is, the pre-reform Theravada has a slightly different focal point

I'm not sure what you mean by pre-reform Theravada. The Visudhimagga was committed to writing 1500 years ago, and is likely based on an earlier oral tradition that probably predates the arising of Tantra.  I would say there are different reasons for the different focal points.

7 hours ago, dwai said:

That is the beauty of a spiritual path - not all things can be labeled and categorized, there needs to be a mystery that unfolds with practice. It is not a course one finishes and walks away - it is a lifelong companion. We need to keep polishing the mirror, and the truth will be revealed in it. 

I don't really see a duality between the mystery and the expression. Words can point beyond words, or entangle us in endless concepts. Teachers can connect us to the source of the teachings, or we can get trapped by our attachments. Etc. But the importance of words, concepts, and teachings is really to connect with other beings in my opinion, if one is working for the benefit of all beings. Or to clarify matters for oneself. Anyway, if it is not helpful, free free to ignore any of my speculations. 

But you DID NOT say to polish the mirror!  

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

then Tibetan would be most similar,

I agree, but I generally don't talk about things that I've been asked not to talk about, so I tend not to bring them up in public discussions on public boards.

On 9/7/2024 at 9:20 PM, Neirong said:

Any kind of information that would dismantle their entrenched views and beliefs apart is taken like a malicious lie and gets immediately rejected.

I think that is fairly typical for how the acquired mind works (spoiler alert: including my own). 

FWIW, I agree with many things in the above posts, but I don't think the view is quite complete in my limited view. How does one measure the impact of a being's actions? Unless we have expanded to a relative point of omniscience, with the ability to discern the flow of a being's karma, it is speculation.

Chia is may be junk food, like box wine perhaps, visiting harm on some or even many. But for others he may be a gateway to something greater, like the start of a deep appreciation for fine wine. Or for others, an opportunity to develop discrimination, which may lead to a better path. Maybe in this life, or the next or the next. And at the end of the day, if Chia exchanged his precious life for an "empire of dirt," he will certainly reap the fruits of those decisions. This is not suggested to say that one of us is right and others are wrong, but more to call into question whether any of us really knows. 

If something had no place in the totality, would it even arise? 

On 9/7/2024 at 9:20 PM, Neirong said:

everyone dies the same

I don't think that is true at all. Everyone may die, but not everyone dies the same way. 

What's even more interesting are the parallels I see between Daoist practice and Theravada Visudhimagga samatha/jhana. Brine notes the same order of operations (vibrations/heat/light), however, the focal point is the dan tian as opposed to the breath (a focal point likely transmitted to and retained by the Zen school). If so, this strikes me as using Samkhya samadhi practices and combining them with Daoist health practices to achieve something beyond health and longevity. I've even run into Daoists that espouse Samkhya principles (mind/body duality). The issue of course is that not everyone can reach Visudhimagga jhana, so that path may be beyond the reach of the vast majority and especially lay people. 

The further question in my mind is whether they also make the additional steps that Buddhist and Vedanta made-- certainly in the past some did. If I had to further speculate based on my experience, some do and some don't. Brine and Rasmus appear (keep in my mind my view is limited to videos) in their words and physical postures to align more like what I've seen personally in practiced Buddhists as opposed to nearly every other Daoist I've run across (or many Buddhists who get caught up in emptiness). 

But again, that's just my opinion-in-progress.

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Taoist tai chi

Yes, and it is possible that the White Crane folks found it and preserved it. For instance, in this excerpt generously translated by TT, they seem willing to recognize and take teachings where they find them. 

If I had to speculate, it seems like the vast majority of Tai Chi people are only exposed to the physical aspects. Beyond this, a certain amount are exposed to the energetic aspects. Even here, they are usually taught apart from meditative practices. They remain primarily ming practices-- which I believe is more associated with Southern schools.

The next level, the spiritual aspect, it conspicuously absent, but it seems to me that it is present in the Ramus/Liao versions. I would note that a lot of later Daoist texts refer explicitly to Chan schools for the xing aspect as if the Daoist portion lies primarily with the ming aspect. In this case, the Chan schools are often criticized as only teaching xing. Of course, this is only partial since xing and ming aren't really separate (and aren't separated pre-heaven) the same way emptiness/form or Shiva/Shakti aren't really separated. If I had to further speculate, Rasmus may have recovered the xing aspect from his hermetic practice, wheras Liao may get it from the Daoists, others may get it from Chan, others from Advaita, etc.

Of course, this is all speculation. 

@Rebirthless: It opens up when you have enough posts to exit from Junior Bum status. 

16 minutes ago, Rebirthless said:

Hi. I'd like to change my name to "Rebirthless".

 

Thank you.

Done. 

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

influence of White Crane per their knowledge

Right. The combination may have occurred before Master Liao learned it. It may have been presented to him as traditional and/or Taoist Tai Chi. Or it may have older roots, who knows? 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Damo's history with Taiji is a long one.

And complicated.