forestofclarity

16 hours ago, Antares said:

This is pseudo-esoteric nonsense spread by all kinds of esoteric gurus who are either simply profiting from gullible people or working for certain agencies.

 

Uh.... what? 

 

16 hours ago, Antares said:

Light cannot arise if you don't have wax.

 

Really? I was just sitting outside this morning and there was light everywhere. And I didn't have an ounce of wax. 

 

 

It seems to me that De is what spontaneously happens as one comes more into alignment with the Dao. Accordingly, I would expect that it appear during the process of reversal as a confirmation. 

 

I hear a lot of discussions about De but very few about (or displaying) the "lower" virtues such as benevolence, etc. which should presumably precede it. It seems people want to jump to effortlessness without having made any sort of initial effort. It reminds me of  long, rambling screeds about higher states of concentration. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reminds me somewhat of this:

 

 

Any thoughts? 

36 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

he is not the one to talk;)

 

 

Oh? Sounds like a pretty bad ass Zen master to me. 

 

Quote

Li Hsun managed to escape and fled to Mount Chung-nan, where he sought refuge with Tsung-mi, entreating him to shave his head and conceal him. Tsung-mi's followers intervened, however, and Li Hsun was forced to flee Ts'ao-t'ang ssu. He was soon apprehended and executed. Because Tsung-mi had given Li temporary sanctuary, the powerful eunuch Ch'iu Shih-liang (781-843) had him arrested and tried for treason. Under interrogation Tsung-mi admitted that he was aware of the plot but went on to defend his actions by claiming that the teaching of the Buddha enjoined him to save all who suffer no matter what their circumstances. He added that he did not care for his own life and would die with a clean heart. Tsung-mi's courage in the face of almost-certain execution apparently so impressed the eunuch generals that he was pardoned.

 

(from Peter N. Gregory, Tsung-mi and the Sinification of Buddhism)

 

Historical observation from the next page: 

 

Quote

The [care of the] dharma is entrusted to kings and ministers. If we made no connection with kings and ministers, how could the religion be made to prosper? Or are the Buddha's words about the influence of kings and ministers not true? The sentiment of men today is critical of anyone who is closely associated with kings and ministers. [This is because] they do not fully understand the purpose of those who are close to kings and ministers. If it were for profit and fame, then we should be grateful for their criticism. However, if the association is solely for the sake of the religion. how could that not be noble? Should one rather try to avoid petty criticism? Those who denounce him are merely jealous. 

 

But again, everyone is free to think as they wish. 

I read about half of Brothers Karamazov. I thought it was going to be long, slow reading but strangely it pulled me in like a novel. I think it appeals to a certain type of person who feels pulled between heaven and earth, so to speak. A good reminder that I should probably continue it. 

 

The problem of evil is probably the strongest (and some say only) formal argument against the existence of a higher power. I would suggest it can be dissolved by reframing what action is and what God is. 

Another view: Zen is not the denial of Buddhism, but the fulfillment of it. Zen is not presented apart from Buddhism, rather it is thoroughly imbued by it. Buddhism provides a context for Zen teaching, without which it cannot be revealed. 

 

On 7/11/2024 at 2:31 AM, adept said:

With those words, Joshu came to a sudden realization.

 

Followed by 30 years of practice. 

 

Nansen's teacher, Masu aka Baso tells us what ordinary mind refers to: 

 

Quote

The Way needs no cultivation; just prevent defilement. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived manner, then everything is defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: ordinary mind is the Way! What do I mean by “ordinary mind?” [It is a mind] that is devoid of [contrived] activity, and is without [notions of] right and wrong, grasping and rejecting, terminable and permanent, worldly and holy. The [Vimalakīrti] scripture says, “Neither the practice of ordinary people, nor the practice of sages, that is the Bodhisattva's practice.” Just now, whether walking, standing, sitting, or reclining, responding to situations and dealing with people as they come: everything is the Way.

trans Poceski

 

Criticizing the later Hongzhou school, Zongmi writes: 

 

Quote

Hongzhou constantly says: “Passion, hatred, friendliness, and good are all the buddha nature. What distinctions exist?” This is like a person who just discerns that wetness from beginning to end is undifferentiated but does not realize that the merit of supporting a boat and the fault of overturning it are widely divergent. Therefore, even though that lineage is near to the gate of all- at- once awakening, it has yet to hit the bull’s-eye. In the matter of the gate of step- by- step practice [Hongzhou] makes the mistake of completely deviating from it.

trans Broughton

 

As the Xin Xin Ming states: 

 

Quote

Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. 

trans Clark 

 

Of course, one is free to believe what one wishes. 

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

(haven’t read the rest of the thread) Lol, this post, as always we get told all others were wrong (without explaining why) and get zero info on what this book actually says. Yawn, snore, bored to tears.

 

I get it, I've been there. It's because typically when you try to explain it, people just form an idea about it and cling desperately to that idea. Then it makes it even worse than if you said nothing at all. I can let people know what I have found helpful, but since we're all different, some one else may see it differently. Plus, there's no skirting the work. I am amazed at going back over things I encountered 10 or 20 years ago and completely missed the point at the time. 

 

Having said that, I share resources I find helpful and engaging in discussions that may benefit myself or others. 

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i would love to know what are the exact criteria for excellency (in a nutshell)?

 

I would say it is really a matter of recognition rather than a specific list of criteria. Like when you recognize an old friend even if they changed their hair color or happen to be speaking another language. You know it when you see it. 

 

But to break it down in mental pieces, what I look for is whether what is being described it clear, accurate, and thorough with what I know to be the case, having spent some time in my own study and practice. Then I give extra points for avoiding common mistakes and errors. When it clarifies some matter was not entirely clear before, I would say it is excellent. Obviously, one's opinion may change depending on where they are. There are other things, but I don't want to get into them. 

 

If people think it's dumb, that's cool. If people enjoy it, that's cool, too. I'm not going to get upset because some one tells me the sky is red with purple polka dots or I have an elephant head. 

 

41 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Does Jing really transform/change directly into qi or is it a bit more complicated than that? Seems unhealthy to reduce your amount of Jing that this implies, even for such a good cause as more qi.

 

I haven't gotten that far yet: I'm at the Xing phase. 

 

If this book is accurate, and if my reading of it is accurate, then most neidan instructions I've received, from sundry and various masters, haven't even established the initial point. As the Chan masters say, miss by an hair... 

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i have translated all of these works years ago;)

 

Ge Guolong's commentary is excellent, and makes up much of the book. 

 

And if such things are neither known nor made available (I think we're still waiting for some one to "stop being lazy" and post their translation of Taoist Yoga on Amazon), then it might as well not even exist. 

 

 

Evidently, this book was picked up by Shambhala and published as Taoist Internal Alchemy. I've been waiting for five years for it and must have missed the updates.

 

I was hesitant backing it, due to my Buddhist-centered practice. I thought this might be another book of common sense moral admonitions, or semi-vague but intriguing interpretations of Daoist symbology. 

 

I will say it has, so far, exceeded all of my expectations. I'm glad I was able to have a very small part in the causes and conditions that brought this into being. Great material, keen insights, wonderful English presentation. 

 

23 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´m someone who would like to develop a healing presence.  Not to do any formal doctoring, just to be of help to the people I come across in everyday life and loved ones. 

 

A few rambling thoughts:

 

What makes you think you don't already have such a presence? 

 

What I've found in my life is that something some one said or done may not have manifested anything in the moment something was said or done, but sometimes much, much later. I think this is one of the reasons that the Gita says that we should practice without concern for the fruits (i.e. achieving a specific result), in part because we don't have the all encompassing wisdom to know what those results will be. Who knows where your partner would be without everything you've already done? In other words, it is hard to judge the results of our actions because we have very little information. 

 

But I do think that people tend to manifest outside how they are inside. It might be body language, subliminal cues, qi fields, etc. You can often see this with not only how other adults react, but also children and animals who don't tend to have as many personal barriers in place. In addition, we are able to stand aside from our acquired mind and connect to something deeper, I think we naturally respond to what the situation calls for. 

 

Short of that, we can also cultivate relative states that are helpful, but I think it is different for different people. For some, meditative introspection may be the way. For others, it may be invoking feelings of loving kindness and spreading it throughout the body and mind, or doing tonglen. For others, engaging in selfless service so thoroughly that the sense of self is consumed. For others, it might be connecting through church, etc.

 

So I would say we might try to find the practices that connect with us and bring out these positive qualities, and practice them without judging external results. 

 

The way I understand the basic theory is that the mantra is itself a manifestation of the divine being. To chant the mantra is the literally invoke the being (i.e. a specific form of God)--- the divine being and the mantra are not different. In addition, it is said that the mantra itself contains specific vibrations that alter one's own being in a specific way depending on the mantra. So this is different then charging feeling into a specific set of words. 

 

I personally hate mantras but they've generally been powerful in my experience. 

 

 

19 hours ago, CozySpace said:

Cultivation is a pursuit of reduction, and thus your personal traits would be attenuated, rather than emphasized.

 

I think this is the theory and appears how many of the classics have put it. However, in my experience it rarely if ever happens in real life, at least for me over the past few decades. 

 

Typically, I've seen both positive and negative qualities enhanced in energy based systems. Many of these teachers appear to develop very strong views and become incensed at any challenge to their views or their egos. Others are very money motivated, and turn their students into cheap labor for their business and/or into a spiritual cult in which dogmas may not be questioned. Some offer promises that come with higher and more exorbitant fees. Usually, the body/energy practices are presented as preliminary, with a future promise for spiritual teachings that either never come or fail to express any basic understanding of how the mind works. 

 

Of course, this issue is not necessarily uncommon even with teachers who begin with morality and wisdom, either. I think the bottom line is that as energy increases, the negative traits tend to manifest more strongly, and as boundaries dissolve, there is less holding them back. And few people jump directly to full enlightenment, so inevitably one is going to encounter issues even with people who have some degree of awakening. 

 

Just my views. 

 

40 minutes ago, old3bob said:

feel free to add some of your own examples or comments:

 

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

"everything is perfect",  "there is no good or evil",  "there is no path",  "God loves us", "we create God in our image",  "you are already enlightened you just don't know it yet",  "all is one",  "all is illusion", "all is suffering, "all is bliss" "there is no time, there is only now",  "do nothing and know that you are not the doer"  and on and on....  in the meantime we are mostly human beings with human problems to deal with besides espousing profound or absolute negations or affirmations. 

 

IIRC, a lot of it traces back to modern Western sources like Barbara Keesling. Mantak Chia repackaged it as Daoist, others repackaged it as Shaiva Tantra.  

 

 

6 hours ago, Nintendao said:

in Wabi-Sabi

i felt wobbly and sobby 

dance and shake it out

 

dance and shake it out

turn around and see what's left

luminosity

On 6/17/2024 at 7:38 AM, SirPalomides said:

Now I understand why things are framed this way- the danger of clinging to a set of concepts and other artifacts without moving on to their full significance is real. But it's just with these things- books, words, art, ceremony, poetry,  the flowers,  birds, stars, etc.- that this transcendent world is manifested to me, that liberation is communicated.

 

This is more or less the shift from Sutra to Tantra (or Chan/Zen) in my mind. I think it is accurate to say that Nagarjuna focuses on the emptiness aspect, but there is also the aspect of appearances. How these are dealt with depends on the school of Buddhism. 

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

The NT koine Greek often uses the same word, pneuma (πνεῦμα‎‎), for both soul and for spirit.

 

 

 

It's been a while, but I recall generally ψυχή (psychē) as soul and πνεῦμα‎ (pneuma) as spirit, such as 1 Thessalonians 5:23. 

Any definition will arguably too limited, too expansive, or rely on unacceptable premises. 

But to play along, I would offer than an idea is a thought or set of thoughts that are representational. 

 

 

Just going to leave this here (even he knows he's BS'ing):

 

 

2 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

When I went on the retreat, the teacher specifically did not recommend meta, because she thought it would further build an outer shell of positivity that wasn't reflective of what was happening internally. She suggested a few things actually, such as ayahuasca or kambo, to be able to bring my attention to the issues. She thought that it was an issue of attunement, that my attention was not focused in the right way on myself, preventing me from being able to see it. I recall she mentioned that it's possible without transmission from a teacher I may never be able to tune my attention the right way, but I felt discouraged from asking for help in that regard. I don't know why.. perhaps I should speak with her again, but it feels like a tremendous favour to ask of someone.

 

Beth Upton said all this? 

In case the name "Zen Master Rama" doesn't clue one in: he's a well known scammer who started a quasi-sex cult, grifted about $25 million, and then drowned with a stomach full of valium.  

 

 

 

On 6/8/2024 at 5:09 PM, Apech said:

Something else is happening.

 

Well, the newer theories include "predictive processing" in which the brain/mind speculates on a lot of the input:

 

I've been enjoying this podcast. A good walk through of Christian Mysticism, from roots to branches through history.

 

https://shows.acast.com/the-christian-mysticism-podcast/episodes

 

The main speaker also has an interesting book on historical miracles as well. 

 

They Flew

 

 

13 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I have not had the requisite experiences or read the requisite texts to get into the debate.

 

We have non-conceptual experiences all the time, they are the qualia or basic building blocks of experience. From at least one Buddhist perspective, the pure taste of ice cream is non-conceptual, the coldness, the light solidity and soft texture of the cone, etc. (form). The feeling of liking it may then arise (feeling), the beginning of concepts, and everything that follows is conceptual. Then the mind pulls all these sensations together (perception). Then there's all sorts of thoughts, feelings, activities and so on, the buzzing reverie of ideas, feelings, and actions (impulses). The ice cream cone, you, the background is all pulled into a coherent picture: I am enjoying this ice cream cone (consciousness) and want to have another bite. 

 

But what if instead of getting caught up in the buzzing reverie, we let that initial taste arise and then fade? What if we let our attention dissolve the same way the taste dissolves? What if we don't draw all the lines around the cone, ourselves, and the background, and run down all the habitual paths?