forestofclarity

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Posts posted by forestofclarity

  1. Posted

    On 11/8/2025 at 8:04 AM, Forestgreen said:

    I interpret this from the theravada abhidamma theory, which makes it comprehensible and in line with my experience during practice.
    I find this slightly too abstract in it self though.

     

    I'm not sure the Abhidharma covers it. I think the pre-celestial has more in common with Mahayana and especially Chan teachings (the original face before you were born, the one mind of Huangbo, etc.). The way I see it, is if it has form, shape, texture, color, taste, etc., if you can get ahold of it in any way, you're already into the creation side of things and so it should be let go of. I find it useful because the mind seems to find an endless supply of subtler and subtler objects it likes to try to cling to. 

     

    It reminds me of the Chan story:

     

    Huineng: "I have something which has no head or tail. It is nameless and can't be described. It has no back and no front. Do any of you know what this is?"

    Shenhui then said, "It is the source of all things. It is the Buddhanature of Shenhui."
    Huineng responds, "I said it has no name and no description. How can you say it is the source of Buddha Nature?"

     

    But maybe I'm distorting Daoism via a Buddhist lens. TBD. 

  3. Posted

    Quote

    The fundamental nature of prior heaven is empty, primordial qi. In short, it is emptiness, that is all.

     

    Huang Yuanji, from Taoist Internal Alchemy, trans Mattias Daly, p.35

     

    Quote

    Using two traditional Chinese terms, the unconditioned and conditioned domains are respectively defined as precelestial (or prior to Heaven, xiantian, lit. “before Heaven”) and postcelestial (or posterior to Heaven, houtian, lit. “after Heaven”). The postcelestial domain is distinguished by multiplicity and relativity; it is the state that features transitory events and phenomena that succeed one another within space and time. The precelestial domain, in one of the approximations that might be used to describe it, is the constant and omnipresent original state of Oneness, which contains all events and phenomena independently of whether they do or do not occur, and with no distinctions of space and time, here and there, before and after.

     

    Fabrizio Pregadio, Introduction to Awakening to Reality, p.6

     

    Quote

     

    When the alchemical texts use the word “original” (yuan), they refer to the Origin (yuanshi), i.e., to a primordial substance that is not born in the postcelestial state.

     

    Therefore the Shihan ji (Records from a Stone Casket), attributed to Xu Jingyang (also known as Xu Xun, trad. 239–374), says: 元陽即元精，發生於玄玄之際。元精無形，寓於元炁之中。若受 外感而動，與元炁分判，則成凡精。 Original Yang is the same as Original Essence, sent forth from the bourns of the Mystery beyond the Mystery. Original Essence has no form, and resides within Original Breath. If it receives an external stimulus, then it moves: it separates from Original Breath, and becomes the common essence.

     

     

    Wang Mu, foundations of Internal Alchemy, trans. Fabrizio Pregadio, p.45-46

     

    This last one is interesting because it distinguishes the term as used in medical texts, such as saliva.

     

    • Like 2

  4. Posted

    17 hours ago, Lairg said:

     

    Fortunately I test energies for quality and intent before entering.

     

    Occasionally I am fooled but a bit of time reversal has always solved that so far

     

    This sounds like a self-perpetuating feedback loop, which is common in my experience in unhealthy mental states (anxiety, addiction, etc.). In other words, the mind (the habitual, egoic mind) says X and we believe it because the mind says so. 

     

    Spiritual practice, in my experience, involves disempowering and becoming free from these loops with external feedback from realized teachers and the teachings that contain the experiences of many practitioners. 

    • Like 2

  6. Posted

    Mod Note: Discussion with Lairg moved here. Sorry, I botched the title, so it has the same title but I moved it to General. Please remember this is the Daoist section: 

    A focus on Daoist teachings and practices as expressed through such as Taiji, Qigong, Bagua, Neigong, Zuowang with sub-forums to cover textual studies.

     

     

     

    • Thanks 1

  10. Posted

    On 10/31/2025 at 5:51 AM, Forestgreen said:

    Schools of neidan that mixes methods aimed at different leveks of xian, schools of neidan that mixes those methods with thunder rites. A certain buddhist tradition ( mine) that mixes alchemical methods with what was first schamanistic methods for affecting life but then devolved into methods of how to hurt people (poison hands).

    Stuff like that.

     

    Your school sounds really awesome!

    This is not unlike Tantra. In Tantra, traditionally one starts with the highest methods, but there is a whole structure of other methods for different types of people depending on their particular circumstances and capacities. In other words, methods aimed at providing health and wealth are not there necessarily for hedonistic pleasure, but to bring one along to the ultimate way. It is difficult to practice if you're sick, hungry, or worried. And some of these also lead one to increase certain inner qualities by providing services to others.

     

    And to get one's health and magical practices to work, arguably one needs to begin to align with the ultimate in some way. 

     

     

     

     

  11. Posted

    On 10/28/2025 at 11:01 AM, Forestgreen said:

    It's a lived experience. If it is outside of ones lived experience, for all practical purposes it is as if it doesn't exist.

     

    I might suggest that this is a bit more foundational. Maybe it is dangerous of me to say without textual support, but I'd say that without the Dao, or whatever, there'd be no structure, movement, or awareness. 

     

    On 10/28/2025 at 11:08 AM, Forestgreen said:

    What if that is not true? What if, for example, methods based on other goals have been interwoven in the tradition for a millenia? Then this is just one possible goal, and perhaps not the goal ones teacher is aiming for.

     

    I'm cool if whatever concepts bubbling through my mind are shown to be wrong. From a certain point of view, they are all limited and don't really hold up. 

     

    I'm curious though on what you mean though about "based on other goals interwoven in the tradition?" What would be an example? 

  12. Posted

    On 10/26/2025 at 5:47 AM, Kati said:

    For some reason i feel my middle dantien stronger than my lower dantien. 

     

    It sounds like you're really resonating with the Spring Forest Qigong!

     

    If you're doing a lot of love, feeling more of the MDT would make sense. I don't think most people feel their LDT unless they do some sort of work like internal martial arts, Zen, qigong, neigong, etc. Some people naturally feel centered there also. 

     

    There are a lot of experiences that arise in spiritual practice. My personal view is to enjoy them while they arise, but to let them go. Some people spend their whole lives trying to recreate a spiritual high. But it also shows what is possible, which is valuable as well.  I wasn't aware of their focus on unconditional love/compassion, that's a very interesting approach. 

     

     

  16. Posted

    It is sort of a weird thing. I think for me, spirituality may be a thing that tends to lead to loneliness, and also overcomes it. But this may be specific to my path and my body-mind. 

     

    It seems there are fewer people interested in spiritual practice, at least the kind here you practice and "see it for yourself." In my experience, practice tends to be alienating since you stop caring as much about things people are into (i.e. the world), and you care more about things people aren't into (spiritual practice). Also, you begin to operate differently than other people. It can be harder to relate, especially as the years pass by. 

     

    But there is also a sense of opening and compassion that arises. I'm not sure if this is specific to certain paths. In this sense, there is more of a connection. When you talk to someone, you're not just holding your breath until you can make a point. You can let them be who they are. You may also feel more connected with other things, like the earth, the sky, animals, the lineage, etc. The whole world is alive in a way it wasn't before. 

     

    For a long time, I kept looking for a live, in person sangha. One of my teachers told me there aren't any for my school the way there are for others, and that it is better to learn to practice intensively on one's own. It is harder, but it does tend to make it stronger and less dependent on externals. 

     

    • Like 2

  17. Posted

    If anyone wants to try out Robert Coons' substack for free, I'm trying it out and have a 5 free one month subscriptions. 

     

    Let me know if you would like to check it out, PM me your email address. 

     

    So far, it's interesting since he has studied both with a living teacher and learned classical Chinese so he can delve into the classics. He likes to put things in a larger cultural/historical context, which I tend to appreciate. 

  22. Posted

    On 10/24/2025 at 10:20 AM, liminal_luke said:

    Two people may think they are following Julia Child´s beef bourguignon instructions and yet their dishes don´t come out the same.

     

    That's true, but people are expected to have similar ingredients and capacities in order to follow a recipe. If beef bourguignon the proper dish for a mountain hermit or a single parent working two jobs? Maybe, if they're interested in fancy French cooking, maybe not if there about to starve. But that's one problem. The main goal of a the teachings, in my current opinion, is to awaken people's inner connection to the Dao. But the preservation of lineages may cut at cross-purposes to empowering individuals. This is why they often go dry and why a lot of people take to the hills. 

     

    Interesting question as to whether there are even any neidan lineages. every lineage claims they have an unbroken oral tradition, but that usually relies on the oral tradition that supports the oral tradition. 

     

    10 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

    I believe that when we understand a method, we understand the principle behind. Working with the principle ( mechanism), methods can be simplified. 

    I also do not believe that we can start from the principle, years of teaching at uni has taught me that an absolute majority of people need methods first.

     

    I think there is definitely some truth to that. But the more one cultivates the acquired mind/body with you wei methods, it may become more difficult to cultivate wu wei later on. Of course, some methods use you wei to open the door to wu wei-- I see standing like this. You adopt a structure so that you can relax. 

     

    Some people go in the opposite direction: all methods, no principles. 

     

    The fundamental question that will drive the entire practice is whether we need to acquire something or not. The DDJ is pretty clear--- we gain the greater through dropping the lesser. (DDJ 48). 

     

    Huang Yuanji says: 

     

    Quote

    The paths of the Three Doctrines of Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism are just the Way of Sages.  Confucians call it perfect sincerity.  Buddhists call it true emptiness.  Taoists call it the gold elixir.  They are all the one energy of cosmic space, which permeates sky, earth, humanity, and all beings and things. Lao Tzu; Huang Yuanji. Tao Te Ching: The Science of Life (Secrets of the Tao Te Ching Book 1) (Function). Kindle Edition. 

     

    If it is permeates everywhere, it is right here and now. How does that inform one's approach? 

    • Like 1

  24. Posted

    On 10/22/2025 at 7:51 AM, Forestgreen said:

    This is my experience when training a system. Around two hours a day, not doing all the stuff. That is why the idea of going into several systems parallel seens so far fetched. 

     

    I would add that I am not clear on how efficient a system can be. Damo has a lot of stuff in his system, probably in part so that it can have broad appeal since differing people start with differing capacities. 

     

    I've been thinking about the Secret of the Golden Flower again lately, and it is essentially once practice with multiple steps that seems to capture the key points of neidan and Chan as reflected in classical teachings. Now people will say, yes, but you need the lineage keys to unlock the secret. Now I've seen some examples of people explaining the secret, and they essentially flip what appears to be the literal meaning on its head so it means something else entirely. So sometimes, lineage may mean "complexify," which is exactly in accordance with moving away from the Dao and deeper into creation.  And when things are systematized, the more that is lost (DDJ 38).