spyrelx

For my part, I'd just like to say I think those last few posts were a lovely way to end this thread. Max, I agreed with you completely. And, Cameron, I agreed with you as well. And Sean, I thought you were right too (and I also think that was about the nicest, most normal post you've ever written here). Hell, I couldn't even argue with Matthew. I'm not joking, I mean all of this. Thank you all.

Please do. I'd be curious as to whether the prices in China are also more fluid than previously believed. Thanks.

I loved that.

Thanks Max. Please give me his info (here or pm me).

Thanks Pietro, I appreciate the vote. And I think you're description of me is pretty accurate. I've been around since the HT forum and know most of you (by internet) pretty well. Like some of the heavy contributors on this board, I have good familiarity with Chia's system, Winn's system, Bodri's system, Lin's system and also general concepts and practices of zen -- though I couldn't claim master level or even advanced level in any of them. I'm also a pretty good writer, observer and analytical thinker. And I tend to be consistent without, I think, being rigid. And if I went, I'd put in the requisite practice. Also, if David would allow, I have both audio and video equipment to provide a record of the experience (and could do at least as good a job -- for lower final cost -- with respect to editing and production values as the Lei Shen Dao video Sean's group is selling). Finally, if this is really going to happen and I'm NOT the pick, I'd throw in to send the lucky tao bum overseas. spyrelx

I nominate myself. Best man for the job, by far. Humbly yours, spyrelx

I nominate myself. Best man for the job, by far. Humbly yours, spyrelx

Pretty cool.

Yep, that about says it all Darin.

I'm pretty sure the china trip is about US$7,500 (depending on the exchange rate), and that it does NOT include airfare, room, or board.

I pulled these quotes out of Michael Winn's latest missive. It's rare I complement the man, but these resonated with me quite a lot, so I thought I'd share. Enjoy. Silencing the chattering Monkey Mind is one (widely advertised) aspect in the process [of Enlightenment], but ofttimes is taken to rigid extremes of asceticism and body denial in a doomed effort to silence desire. Silence can never be final or total while living in monkey bodies in linear time. The function of silence is to give us clarity in unfolding who we truly are. We are always going to think, feel, act and perceive as long as we have a monkey body and have enough chi to enough to respond to our environment. Contrary to popular myths about shutting down the Monkey Mind, without the ordinary mind ("xin", or Heart-Mind to the Taoists), Enlightenment does not exist and would cease to exist. It is the very ignorance of the ordinary mind, the very boundary of sensory perception, and its corresponding sexual and psychic tension, that allows the process we think of as Enlightenment to even exist. Ignorance has been unfairly given a bad name as the cause of all desire and evil. I believe the human Veil of Ignorance is the ultimate driver behind the human quest for spiritual development and creativity. I believe it's why our "formless, all-knowing soul" is veiled when it begins to crystallize itself into a clump of flesh, an embryo floating in the amniotic fluid of our mother's womb. The soul intentionally separates itself from the transcendent mind of Heaven-Earth in order to challenge itself, to discover something new through physicalization in human form. Who else but our soul, putting on the blind-fold called Monkey Mind, would ask the curiously dumb questions? Its our monkey-ness that veers off into unexpected directions, or tosses out wildly unconscious energies - that lead to fresh insights and stimulate new solutions to old problems. The Soul is not stupid when it dons the Veil of Ignorance. Ignorance is just Wisdom waiting to be born. So why bother even talking about Enlightenment? Are we better off silently chewing bubble gum, than blowing hot air about the wattage in our cosmic light bulbs? Well, since I have the podium, I'd say a focused discussion about Enlightenment can be beneficial on several levels. It might positively affect the mental body reading the words. Concepts can lead to trying out useful practices that are more embodied. Words might occasionally stimulate shifts in perception in other subtle bodies. The subtle bodies are all linked energetically, so if the mental body shifts, it ripples through the others. Words have chi in them, one of humanity's special gifts. Words are part of the dynamic flow of Humanity. My experience is that our Monkey Mind's innate cleverness can be directed to good use. The monkey has a heart-mind that can be trained to embrace the neutral point between past and future, Water and Fire, Female and Male, form and formless. There is a neutral observation point where the Soul is hanging out, in the portal between different dimensions of the self. When the personality brings its free will and focuses its sexual volatility at that neutral point - Bingo! Our old resistance to change in linear time/3-D space is overcome. Soul and Heart-Mind couple and a new identity is birthed. String enough of those mini aha! moments together and the Monkey Mind gradually begins to accept the timeless perspective of its own Soul as an equal reality to its linear physical perspective.

That's Sean's thing, he can't make a comment without dissing someone. It reflects badly on him and his school, but that seems to be what he's about. It's also worth noting that Sean has not achieved immortality, enlightenment or even significant advancement in the current training he's undergoing. So when he says ". . . typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you" he is talking as much about himself as anyone else on this board.

So what? What's the point of telling us that? Listen Darin, I don't know if you're for real, pulling some shit, or just a little off kilter, but if you're on the level you need to stop flailing about. Bill Bodri doesn't know anything. First off, he's a bit of a huckster. Second and more importantly, by his own admission he's a guy that hasn't achieved any of the significant levels he writes about. He doesn't know a thing. It's like me telling you exactly what heaven is like because I spoke to the Pope about it and he told me some stuff. And again, why do we care what Bodri said? This is your problem. Start making some decisions about it. You want to discuss some of those decisions, fine, but start managing you're own growth. Be a man. You've been on an intense, unsupervised, solo spiritual journey for years and it hasn't gotten you where you've expected. OK, fine. Be a man. If you're still comitted to this course go find someone who is actually a real master of some of this stuff and try to learn from him. You seem like a pretty obsessive guy. It strikes me that if you put some effort into it you'd be able to find one. If you can't find one, then keep working on your meditation. You haven't hurt yourself, so no harm done. There's no reason I see why you can't keep meditating while you try to find a worthwhile teacher. Or, you might want to just consider taking a break on the theory that you've become one of those obsessive meditator types who's loosing touch with humanity and has in fact weakened rather than strengthened himself through relentless practice. Take a good look at yourself. If that's what's going on then drop all this for a while, eat some grain, go to the beach, find a girlfriend, etc. There's no reason why you can't come back to this after six months or a year with a fresh perspective. You've gotten all the advice you can get here. It's time for you to do something. Take a good look at yourself. Then take some action. Be a man.

Darin, One more thought on this. You're post doesn't imply that you're experiencing any negative effects. I mean, it doesn't appear that you're getting mentally, physically or "energetically" ill or warped. It's just that no monumental positive changes have taken place recently. If that's the case, then you're still in a pretty good situation. And have undoubtedly built up a significant level of spiritual "stuff" (energy, yang chi, feotus, internal discipline, whatever you want to call it) that will undoubtedly serve you well as you continue your journey. It may be you're not doing anything wrong, but that you've plateaued for a while and you just need to keep doing what you're doing. As I and others have said, I think it's a good idea to find a highly qualified teacher. But I'm not sure you need to worry too much. Good luck.

Do you have a teacher, a master, a guide for this program you've been on? It seems like an extraordinary undertaking to commit to without one. I agree with whoever said that there's probably no one on here that can give you advice about the particulary program you've been pursuing. It would be interesting to know how many people in the world are qualified to give you advice from a real level of mastery of those practices. If you have a teacher you should be asking him. If you don't I wish you luck.

Right. Uh, I think you can buy a couple of rings that will make you immortal for considerably less. Just a suggestion.

You know it's an interesting issue. The overall critique that some of these practices can be dangerous and no one appears to be reaching "immortality" using the HT techniques is, I think, quite accurate. On the other hand, an interesting question is is the world a better or worse place for the existence of Chia and HT? For instance, although I don't feel like I'm on the road to immortality, I do think those practices have shown me vast possibilites, caused me to seek out more powerful teachers and practices, and therefore put me on the road to spiritual development. If I ever do achieve significant spiritual growth I'd have to honestly admit that guys like Chia and Daniel Reid were initial steps on that path. I think Winn is very wrong to preach miraculous growth from his practices. And I think he shares that sin with virtually every teacher and book on daoist practices, regardless of whose system they represent. But I think he's right to say people need to take responsiblity for their own development, particularly in the age of workshops and cafeteria style spirituality. I've definately backed off from certain HT practices because I felt I wasn't sufficiently strong or knowledgable to proceed. I obviously don't know anything about this woman. It's perfectly conceivable to me that Winn could be an insensitive prick and that insensitivity could cause real damage. And I agree that a teacher has a greater moral responsibility toward the welfare of their students. It's also conceiveable to me that he could spot a nut and make a reasoned judgement call (which could prove to be correct or not).

Sean, Thanks for the response, sorry about the hatemail you've gotten and any unresolved pain from the HT days. Just a couple of things: It wasn't just that post, it was many others as well. Also -- regardless of intent -- you need to consider the effect on the reader. I'm pretty sure that most people here don't view your flames as harmless good fun jokes, but as serious, passionate, personal and ego-fueled insults. Rightly or wrongly, that's how you're viewed. So if you're at all concerned about getting information across (and why else would you be here?), you have to consider your audience and how they might take (or if you like "misinterpret") what you're putting out. As someone above mentioned, I don't think you've being held to a higher standard. You simply get a lot more belligerent and personal, a lot more consistently, than most here. Part (though certainly not all) of the issue could be that you now have a reputation for it, so people are particularly sensitive to it. But, again, if you really want to generate light rather than heat, you're got to deal with those perceptions and modify the message accordingly. If you really don't care about getting a message across, then I suggest you've got little business being here. Two things about that above quote. First, I'm addressing it because I think your behavior might relate to personal issues that have nothing to do with what the Learner or anyone else says and I'm a bit concerned about you. Perhaps that's arrogant on my part (never even met you) but it is I think also genuinely altruistic (or in that lingo that always makes me cringe "heart centered"). So in any event that's why. You can accept the concern about your personal issues or not, but enough people have pointed it out that I think it's at least worth considering. Second, I note that you and others have addressed Michael Winn's "personal issues" on a thread that was about a philisophical statement that he made and really had not much at all to do with him as a person. I think it's fine to have a thread called "Why Michael Winn is full of it" or "What's wrong with Healing Dao". That's not what this thread was about. So, again, I just point out an inconsistency in approach and ask you to consider what might be behind it. I can only speak for myself. On this Board, you're the "public face" of David's teachings. By that I mean you bring David and his teachings up all the time, and promote them as a true and beneficial path that gets results. Implied in all this is of course that youv'e been practicing his system for some time, and have been progressing along spiritually. Obviously no one is perfect, but to the extent you are inconsistent, rude, offensive, beligerent, irrational, hypocritcal, etc., that reflects on your school and your master. I'm sure David or any one of his teachers would agree. (By the way, I don't mean that last paragraph as some sort of passive aggressive way to call you all those names and start a fight, I'm just trying to illustrate why one might judge a school by negative actions of its students). Thanks for the admission. You're not the only one. Certainly I'm not perfect and can be an asshole as well. We all judge others, you more than most (read almost any of your posts on this site). I don't object to judgement, I object to anger and beligerence on a forum that is supposed to be about collective discussion. I've got drama (believe me) -- but I also try very hard not to take it out on a bunch of strangers who's only sin is they've invited me into their discussion group. I do. In the interests of being consistent with our positions, why don't you start with yourself and think about that statement before you send your next few posts. I promise you I will do the same. Finally, I know I said I wouldn't respond but, as you can see, I'm not perfect either. Spyrelx

No doubt. And I as well, Peter, I as well . . . Thanks for your postings.

I'm a big vitamin taker but lately I've been moving away from them. I just find it hard to believe that isolating one vitamin and pumping it up to a degree that we'd never encounter in nature is particularly good for you. Also, I wonder when I take multivits and my pee turns bright orange what's going on. I mean I know I'm pissing out 90% of what I just took in, but I wonder what all that expelling is doing to my kidneys, liver, etc. I also notice sometimes when I take big multis that I get fatigued, and I wonder if my body is somehow reacting to what's in them. So more an more I'm moving to a low level multi -- like centrum or something that just provides the bare minimum RDAs, and experimenting with herbs now and then (no great revelations). I will say that I eat pretty healthy and varied, with lots of veggies and organics. I might feel different if I was surviving on the typical american diet.