spyrelx

I don't know if it was fake or not -- but this shows how tenuous anybody's ability to see the truth is. Think about it, we're no longer debating whether the guy who sells magnetic rings to make you immortal is a looney charlatan, we're now debating whether the guy EXPOSING the looney charletan was misleading in his expose. Actually, come to think of it Pero, who exactly are you? I find it rather strange that some supposed guy named "Pero" would just pop up all of a sudden on this thread just when the Tao Bums were getting to the bottom of this immortality thing. Perhaps you're working for this Chiu guy . . . OR . . . perhaps you're working for the guy that did the video, and you're just throwing out this -- obviously fake --- criticism to make us embrace the video even more. Whatever you're plan, know this: we're on to you.

Confirms my view of most of these things you see on the web. I always suspected Dr Lin would look a lot like that if you went for a visit.

Eric, I pretty much agree with everything you said and I'm sorry if I've given you the impression otherwise. I don't know anything about religious taoism. When I talk of traditional taoism (which I don't remember doing on this thread) I'm generally talking about alchemical or health practices from established lineages and written canonical texts. Just so we're clear, I DON'T believe one can only grow spiritually by learning from some 80 year old guy in china. One of the reasons I started this thread was to post words from a guy who in my opinion doesn't really have much in the way of credentials (despite what his website says) and might not be all that far along the path (despite what he believes). I also don't think one needs to be following a regimented 1000 year old system in order to progress along a spiritual path. I think spiritual growth happens in all sort of ways through all sorts of paths -- whether "traditional" or newly invented. Indeed one could argue (as Winn and others do) that the ONLY way to make a 1000 year old system work for a 21st century urban dweller is to radically alter it, perhaps even weaving in technology, psychotherapy, and chemical supplements. For my own growth, I generally prefer exploring established systems and lineages. I feel more secure that at least the system has worked for someone over time. But without question a practitioner of any system or non-system can benefit from quiet contemplation. Hope that clears that up.

Well, that's the second time you've done it. So, again, you're presence here consists of either making dogmatic statements or leaving in a huff when being asked to back them up. I suggest you use the time away to try to get your ego in check. Love, spyrelx Oh, and Sean -- as always, I passively acknowledge your infallible wisdom. yours in the tao, Oprah

Perfectly reasonable warning, but I'll take my chances anyway. Cameron, I'll PM you as we get closer to the dates. Looking forward to meeting you guys.

I've been doing Sifu Wong's 8 brocade for about 5 or 6 months now and I like it. A few observations: Generally only do it once a day (mornings) for 10-15 minutes, whereas he suggested twice a day. Haven't been sick once then (whilst many around me have had colds/flu, etc) Have not really felt the great increase of energy that he and all these other systems claim. It has a nice calming effect and I feel pretty good about doing it.

I agree completely. I think that was as true as it was concise. Thank you.

Circulation being the most base form of transformation but (I maintain) still a form of it. I'm thinking more reversing water and fire stuff, "steaming" etc. This is kan/li (which I know LITTLE about) and other similar practices. My guess is Trunk's got some stuff on his site (alchemical taoism) about this. I'm really not an expert on transforming and have never had much succes with it or (in truth) attempted it all that much (usually end up just shooting my load).

I'm in NYC and most likely around in July. If people want to hook up for chinese food, beer, etc. I'd love to meet you. Let me also just throw something out: we should all sit and meditate together. I mean, we're all into this stuff, we're all connected at least in that and through this space, and I think it's a really good and intimate thing to do with people you're trying to get to know. I'm sure we'll all be doing different meditations, but to sit with each other might be nice.

My own rule of thumb is "as long as you can" because invariably you're going to mess up. For my own body, I notice that once I hit about 3 weeks a lot of pressure starts building. I think at some point one has to release the pressure somehow, either vigorous exercise, ejaculation, alchemical transformation (the hardest) or whatever. Without the release, you're doing damage. So for each person, the amount would be different, depending on what forms of release he's using.

Throw away holiness and wisdom and the people will be a hundred times happier throw away morality and justice and the people will do the right thing throw away industry and profit and there won't be any theives If these three aren't enough just stay in the center of the circle and let things take their course -- stephen mitchell I tend to concur with Sean. I'm not particularly learned in this area, but my impression is that there's not there's a lot of duty and responsibility in the tao te ching (at least not for anyone other than a ruler) or in daoism in general. I think what there is seeps in from confusionism and even buddhism.

Xeno, I've sent you a P.M.

Uh, perhaps to find out how many fools there actually were on this Board? Just a thought.

You speak like a daoist immortal. So I can only conclude you either are a daoist immortal, or your just parroting things you've read or heard and, like Michael Winn, are just going by the very slight level of results that you've gotten from the particular practices and procedures that you've tried. I don't have the experience to judge if you're right, and I suspect you don't have it either. "Foolishness" is people taking dogmatic positions about stuff they know little about and can't really prove anyway. He's got a theory (which he can't prove), and you've got another one (which you can't either). I think it's fine to discuss how your theory is better. I don't know how subtle and not so subtle attacks on Winn validate your position.

Great post Spectrum (I kind of lost you in the last two paragraphs but still thought it was great). Thanks. For any of you who haven't seen it, take a look at the recent thread I started on Winn's latest musings about the monkey mind. It fits in with this discussion a bit.

Thanks for being alive and you. Happy Birthday. spyrelx

Sean, The tricks on that video are so obviously fake. I just can't believe how gullible you are sometimes. Just kidding. Very interesting and believable (at least to my eye). Thanks for posting. spyrelx

I would agree with that entire statement. As I said when I opened this thread, it's not often that I compliment the man.

Porn's tougher. And worth a whole other thread.

Thanks for sharing. Nice crib.

I'm not sure I understand your critique. I don't think Winn even uses the term Ego. And I think aiwei and perhaps you are going on tangents about the use of the word "monkey". To me what Winn is saying is that part of the human condition on this planet is having a mind that bounces around a lot and grasps at things and never sits still. That's what he's calling "monkey mind", a common term among meditators that has nothing to do with evolutionary theory. It simply means your thoughts jump around (like a monkey). So we have this mind that jumps around. Some argue that's an illusion, some argue that should be repressed. Winn agrees the monkey mind isn't great for you if given free reign, but he is arguing that it's part of the human condition, that it actually exists because our "still mind" soul now exists in this dual world, and also that the energy and curiosity of the monkey mind can be used to further our spiritual evolution. You're right, "subjugation" of the monkey mind for spiritual evolution is a pretty common belief. He's arguing for something slightly different. He says use it and train it, but don't try to defeat it, because it is you as long as you exist here. It's a theory. A grand and poetic one as far as I'm concerned. The idea of stringing those "aha" moments together and inching yourself and your hyperactive mind along the road to trusting stillness makes a lot of sense to me. That's why I posted it.

You do 45 minutes of standing meditation every morning? That's awesome.