spyrelx

I live near there and stopped in for a class or two with Frank Allen a few years ago. He's a good guy, quirky, and seems to know his stuff. I got involved in another path and never went back, but that had nothing to do with the quality of what I saw there. I think they teach a lot of Kumar Frantzis stuff. I don't know anything about Tina Zhang or the Earth Energy Qi Gong. My general impression is that they are genuine, sincere and know what they're doing. Be warned though if you're coming from sunny, open spaces Australia. Classes are likely to be in cold basements and gritty NYC lofts. Nothing pretty about that school when I saw it a few years back.

And me as well. How do you all feel about a zazen bench? That's my preferred sitting posture these days. I always feel rather conflicted about it. On the one hand, millions of Japanese buddhists can't be wrong, but on the other it seems to suffer from deficiencies compared to both lotus and chair sitting -- i.e., your energy isn't all self contained as in lotus and you're feet aren't connected to the earth as in chair sitting. Anyone ever read anything about the energetic properties of sitting zazen?

Try Karen Sorvik, who teaches in NYC and NJ. She taught with Ron Diana, who was excellent in this stuff. I took his class years ago and she assisted and seemed to know her stuff. She teaches tao yin as well. Sharon Smith is also based in NYC and is pretty good as well. I'm not sure if either is teaching Iron Shirt right now but you could ask. Masahiro Oichi is in NY but I don't think he teaches Iron Shirt too often (if at all). If you hook up with one of them let me know what you think of the classes.

Thanks Dan, great resource.

? I'm not sure whether you mean songs or sounds. In any event, my lesson didn't involve sounds, though I could see how the six healing sounds could be integrated (and I think I've actually seen a brocade done like that). Did you learn sounds with this in Wong's system or with someone else's brocade?

Focus, Relax, Don't Worry. Those three instructions are the heart of his training, and worth their weight in gold. Your description of lifting the sky sounds right. Eyes follow hands upwards with inhald, push up, hold (neither breathing in nor out but not holding breath either) and eyes come down with hands on exhale. All inhales through nose all exhales through the mouth. But there are other ways to do it and one could argue that it's really not that important (see below). 1. Focus. It's a moving meditation. If you're mind is wandering, it's not chi gung. One thing he said that applies to this and #2 below is "enjoy your breathing". I find this helps a lot to keep me focused and stay in the proper state of mind. 2. Relax. Nothing should be forced or strained. Nothing should be tense. Your breaths in and out shouldn't be forced. There's a tendency to breath in and especially out loud enough so you can hear it, or deeply so that you get all that chi -- both are forcing and thus not relaxed. Enjoy your (relaxed) breath. 3. Don't Worry. "You are going to be at home thinkng 'Did he say do it like this or like this? Should my hand be here or there? Breathing like this or like that?' -- DON'T WORRY. It's not that important. If you are focused and relaxed you are doing chi kung." Other pointers. Before practice relax your body and smile from your heart. After practice, let yourself experience spontaneous chi flow for a while. Both these things aren't reccomendations. They are fundemental parts of the form. Without them you are not doing chi kung. Hope that helps.

Hey Hagar, I knew I was going to get into trouble with that. I agree with most everything you said. It's just that I was trying to answer the question of someone who just wanted to get started in chi gung. In general, when people talk about chi gung, they are talking about some sort of moving form, and that's what I was addressing. Standing meditation isn't really a moving form, even though there are different positions (though the Way of Energy book also includes isntructions on a moving form -- 8 pieces of brocade). Personally, I would consider sitting in lotus and running the orbit to be nie gung rather than chi gung, and standing meditation somewhere in the middle, but they all utilize the same principles and are meant to achieve many of the same things, so classifying them like that isn't really accurate. I think terms like meditation, chi gung and nei gung mean different things to different people. For me, "chi gung" generally involves movement, and "nei gung" doesn't. It is, perhaps, an arbitrary classification, but it works for me. "Meditation" is like "Art". I usually know it when I see it, but wouldn't dare define it. spyrelx

Jordan, He's talking about the microcosmic orbit and I for one disagree with him. You can play around with it, but many would argue it's an advanced practice and not worth getting into until you are well along the path (personally, I fall somwhere in the middle). In any event, I would agree with the advice you got in the first few posts and suggest you start there. The Art of Chi Kung is a great book and, I think, a perfect introduction into Chi Kung, with simple practices that work and could keep you happy for years (it also discusses the microcosmic orbit). I've been around the block a number of times with Chi Kung and I'm currently using these practices. (See my discussion of Sifu Wong elsewhere on this board -- he's got a website and may have a teacher in your area. All you would need is one class to start you off). The Way of Energy is largely about standing meditation. I also reccomend it but it's really not chi kung so much as meditating in a standing posture (one could have arguments about what the difference is but let's just say for now that one involves movement ond one doesn't). It's a nice compliment to a moving practice however. If you're strapped for cash, look up the Art of Chi Kung in a book store. The first or second chapter has an exercise at the back called "lifting the sky". It will take you about 2 minutes to read. You could do that exercise for the next three months and be a much better person for it. Good luck.

It's funny, I've been seeing stuff for yin yoga around. Had never even heard of it until about 2 weeks ago. Has anyone checked out Biff Mithoefer's yin yoga? How is it different from Grilley's? Also, does anyone know how Yin Yoga compares to dao yin? Thanks

I recently took a seminar with Wong Kiew Kit and his position was that the animal chi kung forms were NOT modeled on animals. He was pretty emphatic on this point. His view was that during "spontaneous chi flow" that would result from certain forms and practices people's bodies would move in certain ways that would resemble animals. Over time some of these movements were codified and -- because they resembled certain animal poses and as a way of simple catagorization -- they were labeled "tiger" form, "monkey" form, etc.

Sean, Pretty impressive list of testimonials. You've convinced me, he's real. Here's an interesting question to ponder. He appears about as unique as they come. I'm not fmiliar of anyone in the chinese area (or any other shamanistic or spiritual practice) who is reputed to do stuff like that (maybe some mind reading, but not the metal bending stuff or even the seed sprouting stuff). I mean, particularly now that he's world famous, you'd think that anyone who had the power to bend metal by touch would add it to their demonstrations. You'd think the chinese in particular would be all over this -- mastery over the metal element, etc. So whatever he's got (even if he doesn't know how he's got it) seems completely different than the sort of internal power/energy/etc that guys like you, David, John Chang, Wang LiPing etc. are after. Indeed, I wonder what a guy like Wang LiPing would think of Geller. Would he say "there's a guy with tremendous chi power"? Or would he just say, "there's a guy who was born a bit different but wholly unimpressive, like someone born with an extra finger"?

There's a lot of stuff about this on the foundation practice website and I think that it should probably stay there (this is for cohesiveness and not about secrecy) . Those interested should check it out. (Sean if you think I'm wrong about this feel free to correct me). http://foundation73.proboards55.com/index.cgi

Hey Taoist81, Thanks.

Thanks. I'm aware of him. He's on my list (it's a long list). Just so we're clear, I fully believe in the possibility of healing touch, and of feeling that healing power. One of the reasons I haven't rushed over to Peng is I believe he can generate that feeling and I'm not that interested in paying all that money just to verify something I believe in. But to me there is a huge leap from Mr. Peng to a "master" touching his student and sending him flying (subject of a recent sketchy uTube video). And an even greater leap to a "master" knocking over a brick from ten feet away with nothing but his chi (subject of another recent uTube video). This one especially gives me pause.

I'm pretty sure unscheduled means it's not illegal. It's probably not on the DEA radar because it's not used that much. Every once in a while someone synthisizes a new hallucinogen (usually an MDA variant) that's legal because it hasn't made it into law yet. It runs the gamut of college parties for a year and then get's scheduled. Im not sure you want to be doing fly agaric. It sounds like the hallucinogenic properties aren't really wonderful, and come with a lot of unpleasant physical manifestations. Speaking of unpleasant, I loved this part: "The active ingredient is excreted in the urine of those consuming the mushrooms, and it has sometimes been the practice for a shaman to consume the mushrooms, and the rest of the tribe to drink his urine: the shaman, in effect, partially detoxifying the drug (the sweat- and twitch-causing muscarine is absent in the urine). This was also not an uncommon practice in Siberia, where the poor would consume the urine of the wealthy, who could afford to buy the mushrooms" Quite an effort to go for a high. Really, though, don't you live in Arizona? There's got to be shroomers out there. And as I mentioned before, san pedro is probably growing in your backyard.

Michael, I concur with Buddy but with a few caveats. First the concurrence. You're overthinking it. It's a drug -- like coffee, alcohol or asprin. It's a tool to get you somewhere. Yes, it's a very powerful tool but wherever you go you're coming back. And trying out a tool will not make you either buddah or scarface. So relax, have a nice setting (daytime is probably best) where you're not going to be hassled -- and enjoy. If you experience anything negative from the drug just remember -- its a drug, which means it's over in 6 or 8 hours. Now the caveats. I don't know about yoda's mail order ideas. Things are a lot tighter these days and my gut reaction is that's risky. It might be better to find someone you know (or someone that a friend or acquaintance knows). I'm not adamant about this but point it out to ponder. Last and perhaps least. No one dies on mushroom (or acid or whatever). No one goes crazy on mushrooms either. But there are people who want to go crazy, who are unbalanced and going that direction anyway. Sometimes those people use hallucinogens to get there and stay there. The drug isn't dangerous. But we can be. I say this because I don't know you. So I'd caution you to take a hard look at yourself and your own stability and ask yourself why you're going down this road. Adventure, enlightenment, curiosity, kicks -- all fine reasons. Issues with yourself, depression, self-destruction -- all very bad reasons. Be well.

I think that's flat out wrong. John Chang certainly HAS advertised his powers. He gave his permission for that book to be written. He took in students. He allowed the mystic fire video to be shot. He runs a healing clinic and has repeatedly shown off for the camera. He may be inconsistent, now shunning students and perhaps media, but he's definately advertised his powers. Also, I didn't say big cities were teeming with masters. But there's no question that most of the well known (to westerners) people come through places like NY and LA. It is a secretive and obscure tradition. That doesn't mean myths that westerners who have barely a connection to that tradition believe have any validity. Also, there's a lot coming out into the light now so the secrecy and obscurity is disintergrating. And still, I haven't seen one bit of independently verifiable evidence that any of these sorts of superpowers (moving things with your chi, etc.) are real.

What he said. And one more thing -- this place rocks. spyrelx

That's an interesting theory. My problem with it is I think of psychedelics (like all "recreational" drugs) are very energy depleting. I always think they kick your body into overdive in order to get you to that spiritual place. So I'm not sure I'd say they provide a shen boost (if that's what you meant). They might open a window, but I think you pay a "looking fee" in shen, jing or some other form of energy. I should add that the fee might be worth it. There are plenty of reasons why we might want to expend that energy for that look.

Um, I've got some milk, where exactly do you live again? I recognize that no one is going to fly from china for $500. But think about it. This board is filled with people who are hooked into ALL OF THIS STUFF. And NO ONE -- NO ONE -- can even point to a guy who they've seen personally who can supposedly do this. Sure, people can point to a really grainy and suspect uTube video of some guy knocking over bricks with his chi, and maybe a few "my teacher grabbed me and my knees felt weak" stories, or -- more likely -- "my teacher told me he knew a guy . . . " But NO ONE has said "oh yea, there's a guy in Oakland that I've seen do that. In fact, he did it to me". Also, I live in NYC, which has probably got as much of this stuff in it, or passing through it, as any place on the planet. And still no takers. Kind of makes you wonder . . . About John Chang -- he could be wired to a battery. I'm not saying he is, but it would be a relatively simple effect to produce. I'd like to believe John Chang and others are true but it troubles me that these guys are set up (or set themselves up) as so powerful yet none of them seem to be able or willing to do simple controlled experiments that would irrefutably prove they have the power they claim. I mean, it's not like they're trying to keep a low profile. They're advertising they're power (often in the most sensational and ludicrous of ways). Why not really prove they have it? The fact they don't makes me VERY suspicious

This is truly esoteric but do you think they're really talking about light? Light as in the stuff that flows out of yoru light bulb (or if you wish out of the sun)? I always thought this referred to either shen (whatever that is) or some other energetic substance that is being created by these processes. And that it's just called "light" because that's what the inner mind "sees" during these practices.

Big orgasm = big energy. The issue, as always, is what you do with the energy.

How come on every one of these videos the obvious test isn't done? For instance, WHY DIDN'T BILL MOYERS GET TO FEEL THE GUYS CHI? HUH? IF I WAS STANDING THERE I WOULD HAVE ASKED TO. IF I WAS THE QUIGONG MASTER AND HAD REAL POWERS I WOULD HAVE OFFERED TO. WHY COULDN'T THE GUY JUST ZAP BILL MOYERS A BIT SO HE FELT IT, OR MAKE HIS HAND JERK? IF NOT BILL, WHY NOT THE CAMERA MAN OR AN ASSISTANT? HOW COME HE CAN ONLY THROW DICIPLES AND TRUE BELIEVERS? "Proof" like this with such glaring and obvious flaws make me automaticllly think the thing is a lie. And almost every bit of proof offered has a glaring and obvious flaw like this. Regarding throwing people around the room "without touching them", please see my challenge elsewhere on this site.