spyrelx

Love the log of applicants. Reads like a Who's Who of wackos. It's interesting about how all the people on this board and in our various communities steadfastly believe in people being able to do things with their chi -- hurl people across a room and so forth -- and yet no on can prove it. A few years ago, after a particularly inane discussion on the Healing Tao board about the mystical powers of quigong masters, I offered $500 to anyone who could move me with chi. I said I'd sit on an office chair with wheels on the bottom, on a wooden floor, and the person wouldn't be allowed to touch me. We'd video tape it to make sure. If he could move me, I'd pay. No one accepted.

Sage is used by a lot of different cultures to purify a space. They sell bundled sage in new age stores, herb shops, even some health food stores, and of course on the interenet. You burn the sage and go around your house/room/apartment with the burning sage (clockwise, with doors and windows open). You can add any type of ritual, chant, meditation, etc. you want to this. If you search sage, purificaition, etc. on Google you'll probably find more detailed info.

I learned North is generally the direction to face. I believe Ken Cohen is a proponent of facing North as well. Winn talked about facing east in the spring. He also wrote once that he's heard of facing every way except south. So I tend to avoid south. I agree that it's probably among the LEAST things you should be worried about when you do chi kung or meditate. To me it's akin to wearing spandex when bicycling. Yeah, it may in fact lessen wind drag, but there's a lot more important things to focus on to make you a good athlete.

Eric is the only Healing Tao guy I know that uses cheeewwwaaaay. Michael and all the rest use choooo. On the other hand, Eric is pretty tight to chia (and follows his methods pretty closely), so it's hard for me to imagine he'd do something contradictory without even mentioning it. Personally I like Eric's version. Didn't know the ken cohen version. It goes to show that NO ONE knows what these things are supposed to sound like. And since their "subvocal" anyway, it's more about training your body to respond to whatever it is you're putting out rather than some sort of automatic relfex to a sound. I don't like michael's bear any more than I like the sitting kidney posture. It is my least favorite move of all the sounds. Indeed, I keep trying to invent a move that will work better for me. One chi kung book I have stimulates the kidneys by standing with your hands on your kidneys and twisting your upper body right and left, but it gets a bit difficult with sounds. I've tried standing and leaning back with the back of my hands on my kidneys while making the sound (kind of squeezing the kidney's the opposite way from Chia's seated version). That kind of has a nice effect but I can't get over the vision of all that bad chi coming out of my mouth and sinking back down on top of me. Thoughts are welcome

Thanks to all. There are two places relatively near to me that teach it who are somehow connected to a guy named Moy Yat who I guess brought the style to the States. I'm going to try to check them out and if anything's worthwhile, I'll give a report. Thanks again.

Um, I thought we just started week 1?

Thanks for all the pointers. Big smile out to all of you.

Did standing this morning, and have done the "penis tip sqeeze" a few times today. Hope to do hair breathing/heart stuff later.

Good thread. Cameron, your second post is an awesome summation of the Winn School/Bodri School split. Really clarified some stuff for me. Regarding your initial question, and Sean's post seeking clarification: I think, for purposes of Cameron's question, "emptiness meditation" means quieting the mind and not grasping. Whether that's observing your thoughts, watching your breath, whatever. It is the "do no thing" mode of quiet sitting. Smiling is kind of the "do one thing" mode -- though that one thing is also without grasping thought. It is smiling acceptance and attention. Cameron is right in that there is a kind of similarity here in that for each school (e.g., Bodri and Winn), their preferred method (emptiness or smiling) is the ground state from which all other things spring and to which the meditator always returns. I think there are similarities between the two practices, and suspect that, when you get higher deeper into them, the differences may be more of vocabulary than substance. Though daoism always retains the option of a smile directed at a specific thing (e.g., the pain in my knee -- though now that I think of it, a zen meditator who felt the pain in his knee would FEEL IT AND SIT WITH IT AND ACCEPT IT, which is perhaps much like "smiling into it"). -------------------------- This whole discussion though raises a question for me which is, perhaps a corollary to Sean's: what do we mean by the inner smile? I've been practicing this stuff for years and I'm still a bit baffled by the inner smile practice. I means we're taught to put a smile on our faces and smile into our liver "as we would to someone we love" and then "send loving energy and appreciation to our liver". The fallacy for me is that we don't CHOOSE to love someone. Our feelings of love are spontaneous (we've all had the experience of loving people who didn't deserve it and not loving people who did). I mean I can't choose to love my liver any more than I can choose to love George Bush. I either love him or I don't. So what exactly am I supposed to be doing when I smile into my liver? At best I focus attention on my liver with a sort of altruistic acceptance and sense of good nature. At worst I just think about my liver with a stupid (and false) grin pasted on my face. What do the rest of you do?

Michael, I don't have any answers but, for what it's worth, have the exact same issues. I don't get the bliss. I'm calmer after, and generally feel good (if a bit stiff) but that's about it. I also think it's a LONELY practice, somehow. More so than the guided meditations of daoism. I still have a sense that it's WORTHWHILE though, and perhaps even mandatory. Rex, A truly great post. Thanks.

It would be great if you could get to the bottom of it. I looked into it a bit a while ago and, like you, could find no legitimate lineage. That doesn't mean there isn't one. I just did some brief research and couldn't find any.

Glad you guys are doing this. Not sure if I'll join, but will be lurking . . .

One of his other books emphasizes food combining and colonics, so I assume this builds on that. Reid is a very good writer -- sometimes too good. He can make very good arguments for some positions that are based on very little or no hard evidence. He's usually on track though. I don't think he's written anything in years. It will be interesting to see how his thinking has progressed.

Thanks Thaddeus. I can see now how that COULD work. Unfortunately, when I created a new account, it said that I have to have purchased something in order to see that page, and when I go back to my old account, it says I've reached my limit on searching --- arrrrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!. Anyway, it's good to know for future reference. Regarding other books to read, Daniel Reid is very good, as is Ken Cohen. Kumar Frantzis has some interesting stuff as well. All are good authors and have well written books that are similar to the Chia brand of taoism but come from different traditions. If you want a good read that's really not instructional, check out "Opening the Dragon Gate", its the autobiography of a modern taoist wizard, and quite entertaining. You'll also see similarities with the stuff we study. I'll be asking more dumb questions about this ming men posture later, I'd ask you all to be patient with me.

Uh, I think this is a dumb question, but how do you get to a specific page on Amazon? It just shows me a handful of pages, none of which are 137 (eg, front cover, back cover, index, Mantak Chia intro). I kept hitting "surprise me" and it bounced around to other parts of the book, but never got near 137. And then I reached my limit, so Amazon shut me down. (oh, and if anyone can send me that friggin diagram I'd appreciate it).

It's impossible to follow. I asked twice and then gave up. If anyone can describe it again, or post a pic, or the description in the book, that would be much appreciated.

I'm curious as well about what the book says about the MM. I've always had trouble with feeling my MM during orbit meditation, etc. Always felt I was a bit blocked there. Also I have a slight disc problem very close to the area and always wondered if that was related. SO, I'm very interested in this discussion and in any techniques for opening/strengthening/energizing the ming men.

Just got back to the board after an absence of a week or so. As others have said, this is a great post. I think EVERYONE made at least one pretty interesting contribution (and how often does that happen). So I don't have much to say (and how often does THAT happen). Except to Yoda, First, congratulations on shooting your wad. Personally, I've been a little worried about you. And I think you chose the smartest move. Indeed, you might want to do it again, just to thoroughly clean out the pipes and start fresh. (I suggest doing it with Mrs Yoda, slow and mellow this time). And now for one more thing. Remember this: due to a combination of retention and living in the western world you've already turned yourself into a horndog. And that doesn't change by an ejaculation. Coming will lower your energy and perhaps even your physical/sexual ability for a time, but it might not have that much of an effect on DESIRE. Your glands might have cooled down but the stuff you've done to your psyche is more ingrained. So, if you've gotten into a weird place sexually or emotionally or psychologically, those patterns may well still be there and indeed may well assert themselves even stronger after a loss of energy (I remember ejaculating to porn after a long stretch of retention and then surfing the internet for more porn within the hour). Try to be aware of obsessiveness in anything -- wether actions, feelings or relationships -- and guard against it. I think you have a great resource in Mrs. Yoda and the kids. My suggestion for the next few weeks is to connect with them with as much wholesome love and openess as you can muster (but again, without being obsessive). OK, that's it. Frankly, I just read this over and hope it doesn't come across as too arrogant. I mean, I don't know if this advice is even relevant to your situation. It's just that some of the things you've written have reminded me of places I've been and, as as I say, you've been on my mind a bit lately. spyrelx

Excellent work! Thanks.

I've seen him do that live but I still don't quite get what you're supposed to be doing. I'm wondering if the tape explains it well or if it's as scattered as his live lectures. For instance, after the exhale and the tounge out thing, do you lock your throat so that no air comes in and then try to breath? And how do you churn your belly like that?

OK, this is VERY IMPORTANT for me to know -- did they have you send your current model back to them (i.e., for resale)?

I think your analogy is flawed. In fact, your analogy proves my point. When you lift weights you LOOSE ENERGY. YOU DO DAMAGE TO YOUR BODY. It is only because you then rest and TAKE IN MORE ENERGY TO REBUILD YOUR MUCSCLES that you get bigger and stronger. So lifting weight IS AN ENERGY LOOSING ACTIVITY. I know, you say, "but after rest and taking in more energy I have bigger muscles". But to analogize that to sperm production is to misunderstand what sperm production is. In weight lifting you're NOT creating muscle and then THROWING IT OUT OF YOUR BODY. Rather you are tearing the muscle and rebuilding it (with the help of lots of additional energy in the way of food, rest, enzymes, etc.). With sperm, all you are doing is using energy to get rid of it (in the form of ejaculate). THERE IS NOTHING TO REBUILD, NOTHING TO TEAR AND GET STRONGER. You're just running an energy loosing biometric process over and over. It's like you're saying, "oh, I have this bread machine. I put flour, yeast and water in and it makes bread. So if I run it 24 hours a day it will become a bigger, stronger bread machine." No, all it will be is a bread machine with a bit more wear and tear. To make more bread (sperm) you have to keep putting more source material (jing) in. The act of making bread doesn't increase your source material (jing). The difference between a bread machine and the human body is our source material is harder to come by. You don't get to just keep pouring jing in so it can come out as sperm. Despite what yoda says, I think you should try your experiment for a few weeks. Don't worry about timing (before, after chi gung, etc.). Just make love when you always do but come instead. A few weeks worth of spilt seed is not going to kill you. See how you feel.

Lots of good stuff in Sean's post above (I've just quoted a bit and would suggest people read the whole thing). I just want to address the above portion from a certain angle. The daoist point of semen retention is NOT spiritual progress per se. It is really about building up a certain level of energy, from which you can do all manner of things. Semen retention was reccomended for EVERYONE as a general health tonic. My guess is that part of this prescription was to shoot your load once in a while, so as not to get into any physical, mental or energetic trouble. Semen retention for spiritual development was so that you could take the base fuel of sexual energy and convert it into another form of energy to fuel the alchemical process. "Enlightenment" and "spiritual progress" is connected to semen retention only in the same way that they are connected to eating good food. It provides the alchemist with certain raw material to move along the path, nothing more. The idea that people on this board or elswhere who are big retainers don't appear any more "spiritually enlightened" or even "healthy" than anyone else is actually proof of this point. Unless you are converting all that stored jing and going through some HEAVY and consistent alchemical processes -- or frantically exercising it away (see Yoda) -- you are going to warp yourself. No one that I'm aware of on this board or the HT board (myself included) appears to be consistently engaged in this sort of alchemical transformation. We are just messing with the beginnings of the process.