Wayfarer64

Once again, Here I offer my book of sonnets... Please visit the sample pages as you are able - many thanks & love to all- Pat http://www.lulu.com/pdgart

Wowzers!- I've not visited this thread in some time, and it is now a real doozy. I think that perhaps an actual day in court may be called for . One of you sue the other, the other counter-sue; agree to use arbitration and work out yr differences in a regulated atmosphere. Bring evidence and witnesses as needed and have at it to create a resolution...Using a forum such as the Tao Bums seems pretty off-base to me. Gossamer you seem very up set and I have some concern for your well-being - from what you are trying so hard to do -being a detriment to yourself...It supercedes what others are doing. Take a break from these issues for a while and let it be... Soon they will matter less to you and perhaps yr perspective shall change. There are ways to, protect yrself. That yr "enemy" has followed you here gives you credence to my way of seeing, but that is not enough to make him end his attacking you. Bring to light what you know is real and leave the rest alone. Make your case as best you can - using the FBI if need be. But try to get calm first - so that your credability has a chance to shine. There are usually two sides to every conflict, and seldom are we all "right" at all times when conflicting amongst ourselves. So I think trying to sort this out openly and legally may work for both parties... If there is nothing shameful to hide then bringing truth forth... harms no one. If wrongs have been perpitrated then they should be addressed.

I have not been to a doctor nor dentist in 15 years... My mom paid for a "check-up" for my 40th birthday, I went to make her happy -since my birthday was her laborday... ... But, I've not been back to any Doc since. A good friend just had two opinions from 2 doctors ... They gave him two completly different and contridictory procedures for an infected toe... One HAD TO operate the other just drained it... I know i will eventually become sick and die, I'll be damned if I waste any time worry or money chasing age beyond what I can maintain on my own...If things get bad in terms of decrepitude - I'll just take a swim into the ocean and be happy if I'm eaten up by fishies- tho I'd rather drown than be eaten alive -I do hope to become food in the end... Doctors lawyers and politicians can kiss my - BUM!

Before they're swabbed Remove the swaddling cloth All bums need to bathe!

Back in the days of my youth we would say "go with the flow" to conotate an acceptance of natural happenstances... As in- do not fight the force of what is going on around you. This was quite Taoist in its way... There are cyclical movements to life; & we are happiest when we allow ourselves to adapt & be a natural part of these changes. In politics and interpersonal activities the issues are trickier- but if you stay centered and humbly assert the goodness that you feel is the right way to procede things just work out better... Accepting that all of life is part of a Oneness and that we are each but a small inter-connected part of that whole is a great boon to serenity and hopefullness... love to all-Pat

I didn't realize that Lin was offering salvation. I certainly haven't seen him expose any actual clear indications of an individuals' predicament or predicaments in general. Where is the clearity, if that is his aim. I am not so sure Lin needs anyone to speak up for him here , where he has always been warmly welcomed and respected by us all. That you make a differentiation as to what is in the "vortex" of samshara and do not include Lins' teachings seems odd to me. Once we are beyond that vortex... all teaching is meaningless. This being a site primarily dedicated to Taoist thought does not preclude ANY other belief system or philosophy or idealism - thanks to Seans' impeccable terms of conduct and allowences to all and everyone. But this thread is about how Taoism is different not how it is similar to Buddhism. There are of course many similarities between every system of faith, worship, philosophy and belief I can think of. The idea of spirituality is the unifying factor, as we are all one in spirit. The paths to reach an understanding of that oneness are many. My inclination towards Taoism is mostly due to how it offers such a realistic approach to living in this world. It is a philosophy based on natural laws and earthly conditions. There is NO efforts made to seperate from the world as it is, a great interconnected web of life. The efforts are to become a more meaningful part of that interplay. There has been evil done in the name of all religions and beliefs. Buddhism as well as Taoism are not beyond the manipulations of men. That the Way to ones' inner strength and a more complete understanding and grasp of ones' spiritual bliss is different for each of us is a great and wondeful thing.

Sometimes I felt as if my dog trained me - Having him as my almost constant - ( he hated to be left behind!)-companion, certainly changed my life style (happily too I must say)

It may be more to the point that it is not an intellectual attribute as much as a spiritual awakening that registers in the brain as a conscious awareness of realms beyond mere mind and body stuff... Our brains need to be quieted to reach higher realms...- Peace- & love to all- Pat

I think it was prob-ly a different site the one I was on was a blog run by a guy named Mac P.

This is very much where I'm coming from as well - The ANCIENT Shamanistic core of Spirituality and our inter-active relationships as Earthlings is what brought me to Taoism all those long years ago... I hope to be food eventually, just another part of the cycle... Love to all- Pat

When I first found this wonderful site -I felt like I'd come home. Fellow seekers and practitioners and open-minded questioning of big picture issues and the micro-cosmic orbit as well !!! - I thought I'd found heaven on earth... I soon there-after got into a big "brew-ha-ha" with the Verdesi spokesman and totally lost my cool. & even tho many sent me PMs thanking me for taking on that situation I was embarassed by the low levels of give and take it produced... I've recently been harshly attacked by hate-mongers for being a multi-culturalist on another site- could we imagine such a travisty of closed-mindedness here? I think not... That we are so large a group now is astounding and makes it ever more difficult for us to "ALL get along" I believe we are doing very well as a mini-society. There is very little harshness -some small rancorous give & take from time to time - but I think our inter-actions are particularly civilized as compaired to other places I've visited... We ARE talking about "Religion & Politics " quite often -which in most scenerios creates trouble a-plenty! & even tho I am proud of my 55 years grasping for answers and gleaning truth from the BS around me I have learned more here in these past few years than any single place I can think of! I may be one of the loud-mouths but I hope my gratitude out-weighs my hubris- Love to all- Pat

Its funny - before I found this site - I saw myself as a "seeker" of wisdom" and perhaps even enlightenment... The word cultivator was not part of my lexicon in that search. I now like it very much and do see the merit of the distinction. We grow ourselves into the beings we become more than mere "looking" within and without... For my way has always been about introspection and analysis of self - Starting quite early - with the Socratic or Greek " Know thy self" and blossoming into eastern realms of thought and practice... That I have settled into a sort of existential Taoism may be a mere -way station as it were... But Taoism is different from other forms of cultivation and seeking in that it demands an open minded and open ended approach to all questions... Maybe not "religious Taoism per se as that has some pretty dogmatic dictates; but the basic idea that the only constant is change aspect - which is also a basis for mathamatical physics... As long as we keep seeking and growing we are becoming enlightened and I see no point in that ever ending... the state of enlightenment means little to some of us.... We are of this world and happy to be so. What the next realm is - holds some wonder and a hope for greater realms of understanding prehaps... But I for one do not wish any sort of nervana or immortality beyond my current hold on what I have impirical reasons to conclude is my immortal spirit - Which means to me that we are each born "Immortal" and just need to remember it rather than be constantly distracted by the marvelous world around us... IF we can constantly remember that there is more to our lives than the physical - & we are STILL spirits and will return to that state with added insight and meaning as our lives (personalities) end... Is there more? And if not -what is the big deal? LOVE TO ALL- Pat

Sure -As I wrote - raising 3 pigs: "Breakfast, Lunch & Dinner" for future slaughter is what allowed me to eventually remove my emotions from the equation. Having hunted and fished before that- was the precurser to that evolution. I feel a pang of loss when killing, and am moved to show my respect for all I eat because of those experiences. We have moved away from the Earth on so many levels as a society. Our heads are in the air about many issues. Taking emotional responsibility for all of our actions is an important part of re-claiming ourselves away from the super-structure of society. Doing what is natural for us - not what is expected by our myth-laden lore & social imperitives. We need protiens to thrive. Taking the time to respect what we eat is part of respecting who we are.

I am glad that the basic premise of humans being evolved as non-meat-eaters has been debunked and thus resolved. It is just that sort of pseudo-science that got me started... As long as we can agree that eating meat is as natural as any other activity, there is no arguement. Eating meat in most of the world is a great treat and not something to be ascewed... But here in the USA we are ( in many cases) more concerned with dieting than finding enough to eat! What we discussed is a matter of choice and morality much as abortions are. I will grant that any taking of any life is a negative part of our experience, -it is the reasons and the seriousness of how we go about the harder choices that dictate our morality. The hardest thing I ever had to do on an emotional level was ok the vet to put my dog down when he was 16 years old and suddenly in pretty poor shape. It was the right thing to do. I have paid for two abortions -niether one was from my seed, that too was a difficult call to make. But again the best thing to do under the circumstances... Life often offers us dire choices. The cycle ( as others here have aptly stated) makes us each a part of all others, molecularly speaking at least... The desire to be good and kind is a wonderful mind-set, but it is not morality in the strictist sense, it is just how we behave. One can kill and remain moraly uncorrupted in some cases. Life goes on... as for the borax thing - YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTIN ME??!! I USE BORAX AS INSECTICIDE AND WOULD NEVER INGEST THAT SHIT!!!!! YIKES???!!! That reminds me of when I used bleach to rinse my mouth out after an accident with manure... A long story that will be funny one day I'm sure... PS the frown on my previous post regarding compassion was meant as a joke-so we can lighten up some here ... love to all- Pat

As a horse-born bum - it is with great relief that we enter the year of the ox! All the best to everyone !

It is not merely a claim -It is a fact. And convenience has nothing to do with my beliefs. If they are not your beliefs it does not disturb me in the least. I have compassion for the beasts I eat and the homeless I try to house and the hungry I try to feed -in my work as the founder of two not for profit organizations. If I were to insist that the people I try to help get food -only eat vegetables -they would dislike it. As I stated I have been a vegetarian for several reasons. I am not a vegitarian now because I have worked thru my emotional responses to life and and am now more mature in my thinking. Yr lack of compassion for meat eaters is just astounding to me! Yr value judgements are absurd. Life is far too complex to put your values above other's values. Compassion for animals is a great good, but it is not the only tool in the box. And when it come to the food chain- intelligence is what brought us to the top. We are built to be omnivores not vegetarians that is obvious not convenient. That your moral center is reliant on not eating meat is merely a state of mind being led by yr emotions, that you try to make it out to be some intellectual & compassionate triumph -just does not hold water. It is still just yr belief. It does not fit with my view of the cosmic order. I am willing to be food. Why aren't you?

I went thru a nymph chasing period about 35-40 years ago and it was as close to heaven as I've been in this life time ... and once again garlic and green tea is a perfect begining to achieving long life if not immortality love to all-Pat

If I am eaten in the end of my days in this body - then it may be that becoming food is the last best purpose of my current life... Liking or disliking is not always relavent when it comes to karma -whatever my "fate " is in this life or whatever my reincarnated body may be - is not very likely going to be up to my eating habits. If I ate ALOT of meat it may kill me with cholesterol and that would be a cosmic goof indeed -in fact people who eat abundant amounts of fatty meat are just stupid... But My Hung-Gar master ate little greens and mostly red meat- he clamed this helped him to build his yang powers - his son had to sneek greens when he could! If it is so that being currently a meat eater dictates that I become food in my next life - then I shall perhaps be coming back as a chicken - and a free -range chicken has a pretty sweet life compared to most wild animals- or krill or some such bait-fish - what does it matter? My spirit will be intact and will need to become aware as I am able and my brain allows me to be able... I have a bigger problem with alzhimers -taking a human being's ability to function as a cognicent being then any creature being eaten... Life has many dangers, get over it... we all die and most eat the dead of some beast or veggy- and veggies feel too! Actually I hope to come back as a Tardigrade -they are close to being indistructible critters and have a cozy/mossy habitat... Otters are also way up there as desirable incarnations... But Being "bred" indicates subjugation to humans - more than being food... Almost all living things eventually get eaten-only those cremated are useless as food... I have felt guilty about eating animals and believe that killing and eating is more noble than being distant from the source... And yes I have killed chickens -pigs that we bred - ( naming them - Breakfast, Lunch & Dinner - so as not to become attached - pigs are pretty likable as well as delicious )- I have hunted and fished- (fresh Tuna -was the best food I ever ate!!!) I am what I eat and make no appologies - I do offer prayers for the spirits of my "food" to be fulfilled and express my gratitude as well as bless those who I share meals with. We are all in this together and the cycle is a beautiful expression of cosmic order... love to all-Pat

I'm glad this has turned into a garlic thread... I've been a vegetarian - 1st when I was 4 years old - in 1958 & it caused my mom much angst... & a few times in later years - it did not suit me. I eat a bulb of garlic every day - with meat and veggies and salads - and a lot of green tea too. The tea and the garlic are the only "staples" in my diet - the rest is what ever looks fresh... I see humans as havin g evolved as omnivors, & that we cultivated grain to make beer is also quite telling - we are smart and know what we like! That I eat meat has no moral problem for me - I hope to be eaten by something... when I die - either a shark at sea... or worms or a lion in some jungle - it is part of the cycle... aand there is no judgement envolved for other creatures - so why should there be for a bum like me? love to all - Pat

Is it better to be humble and flawed or virtuous and self-rightious?

Because the everyday is very distracting! To seek inner peace is very time consuming for most of us...Satory aside- the path to inner self -conquering is not an easy one...No matter what path - or attempts at many paths we try to take...In order to reach an "enlightened " state of mind- But that "hiding" in order to still yr mind can be very counter-productive... And besides what good can one do for the wider world in seclusion?- But that is perhaps a seperate issue... Religious Taoism has dogma and I for one do not take it very seriously, as I do not take any dogma seriously- it is a way to dictate a path - and I again say every path is different- which is also what Krishnamurti said, and I think him very wise. I see it as YR WAY (with props to Frank Sinatra ) - not even always a strictly Taoist way - In any attempt to get beyond what we have been taught to accept as Gospel -no matter what system we grow up in... there will be baggage that fogs our view outward into the unknown - Just as it is hard to tell if yr laundry is dry, or still damp- if you have wet hands, a precondition will obstruct knowledge... Solitude is a useful tool but negating life in the service of any dogma is foolish to my thinking. Life is the greatest gift any spirit can recieve -it is endured on some levels and treasured on others - but the elements of transcendence are internal and hopefully ENJOYED as we go on thru life's roller-coastering ride... enjoying life is not a sin. Abusing power or being gluttonous, envious etc.. you know the list... to do so is sinful...And that is why most retreat in an effrort to escape temptations...But the roller-coaster continues... efforts remain to be applied... (Even the Buddha is said to have suffered from over-consumption in his later years as he traveled thru India accepting dinner invitations and offering sutras as his passport - with a huge entourage that often put any given village into dire need after they went on their way...) Nothing is clear-cut accept constant change which must be dealt with as we go along...

As Buddhist teachings go- The Guatama was not "awakened" and continue to be awakened from birth. He had a Satori of sorts when he ran away from home and saw what he felt was unbelievable suffering- sickness, age , death etc...He then devoted his life (one of many as we all have)- to finding a way out of that suffering -as he saw it- he later developed an understanding of the middle-way that led him to a greater enlightenment- Which became that which he taught... That we each and all go through many life times is pretty well accepted on this forum. That there have been many incarnations of Buddha is also granted by most, that we all must "endure" MANY Life times is also pretty well accepted by many here - up to a point - I for one see nothing to endure beyond life itself which I do not see as suffering- Even while I was being tortured by neo-nazi miscreants- life is a blessing -not something to be endured - and it is what we make of it that allows us to grow - not what we hide from in an effort to transcend the everyday -which is mostly pretty wonderful for lots of people -the kind hearted and the mean spirited alike... Much of morality and proscribed behaviors are just silly to my way of interpreting what this realm of existence offers to each of us... It is the awakening to the spirit within each of us that offers a full appreciation of this gift of life and the responsibilities we assume for each other as spiritual beings sharing a corporeal existence that counts... It is being in the here and now that makes Existential Taoism different for me - I get to choose as a human what I can and can not do as each experience arises, according to my nature and the situation -not some myth-based set of beliefs and dogma ... I hold my spirit and my karma as everlasting and answerable to the source of all being- so I act as best I can in any given situation-while not allowing my basic nature to be undermined... I am at heart a warrior maybe even more so - than if I didn't also wish to be a monk and find a bit more peace in my lifetime- but I accept this role and believe that we each have a certain amount of destiny -or karma to fullfill and take responsiblity for - each path is very different and there is not right or wrong or better or lesser path... None- But I agree the path to power has little if anything to do with the path to enlightenment peace _& LOVE- Pat

Everyone's Path is different. The Buddha started out as a spoiled rich kid who saw the basic everyday toils of life as a great suffering -because he came from an over-protective background. Taoism sees life as whatever you make of it- useing yr internal -natural and developable powers and energies to grow- as all life grows... The internal search for spiritual awakening is a universal possibility that anyone may attain- In fact it is the state of being we are born into- it is the distractions of this wonderous world-which is a great gift -that leads us from that basic awareness-that we are beings of spirit having a human experience- getting back to that natural state of awareness is an awakening offered by many paths it is the original & natural state of being -united as spirit/mind/body- love to all-Pat

It seems to me that most of this world's philosophy tends to address enlightenment as the attainment and use of power over ourselves, and the understanding of just what it intails to be a human... Political philosophy is more about using power externally... the moralities may differ but the golden rule usually shows up as a basic tenet. The gist of some of these posts just addresses the empowerment of the ego -not the "lightening up" of the inner self that is more readily accepted as enlightenment... Power in itself has little to do with enlightenment- Power is just a tool for what ever end is then sought- enlightenment is a seperate goal in my view of internal direction...

The Chinese Free Masons of NYC are based on Mott Street. They are the American wing of Hung-Gar ShaoLin -amongst other representations. The (Scottish/English based) are another world wide organization...The Free Masons in NYC are based up on (as I remember it) 34th Street on the West side- I was invited to join about 25 years ago and did not- tho the building was truly amazing as architecture, and I had great conversations with the members and even witnessed a very elaborate rite or two as a guest... When I studied Hung Gar with Bill Chung I was -as one of his "inner desciples" -a Chinese Free Mason- but actually was just part of Hung Gar school...I took an oath of alligiance that meant I became part of that system... There seem to be many permutations of these organizations -some more serious than others.-