Wayfarer64

ok this may be a good thing to try... Isues (I'll keep to the site for now...) Misunderstandings on the forum, Lozen 1 you are a peace-maker of great value to yr fellow (ever erring) humans 2 even though everyone says you are very beautiful, you are demure and do not flash yr tatas as others have done (now guys this IS a good thing here) 3 you manage to stay with this pack of testosterone driven seekers and do the job that women have done forever -you help to civilize the manfolk. Sean D 1 you are a dedicated student of Taoism and a staunch ally of the truth as you see it 2 you (as Teddy Roosivelt before you) dont give a rats ass about spelling. 3 you are a person who shares what he knows as best he can, with the same dedication that you bring to your studies father Paul 1 you confound some of us into thinking 2 you amuse the hell out of some of us quite often 3 you always tell the truth as you know it To these & all the rest of you Bums I have come to feel an abounding love and respect for each of you. It is not an easy task we've set ourselves to and any of the processes, systems and quests that we make our own is sacred. So I hope that your lessons to me have sunk in and I am becoming more able to accept and question without any dismissive attitude built on my analysis that is (and no matter how much I learn will remain) at best partial... Partial being a very useful word in this context... Thanks once again Sean O. You da man!

Anyone every play the adolecent game/joke called "Come in Rangoon?"

I will do my damndest not to bring that other thread into this...My point was only about the apparent comoditization of the process. It is a trend that I find worrisome -the point made that now the currency of discipline is money I think is probably true; and I guess that is the crux of the problem for me. That we are willing to deligate the responsibilities of becoming our better-selves to others with a system that they believe will help us - and indeed make us- become that which we hope to be. By paying for the knowledge granted through efforts that they made. It is the exact same problem I have with a basic belief of Catholocism -that we can have faith in Jesus who died for our sins -confess those sins on a weekly basis and be the better person that never did the sin in the first place - just through a system of prayerful penance and indulgences. Paying to absolve ourselves and thus become who we wish to be, through the giving up of some money and very little time-None of which (time wise) is on-going and sustained. I believe that the process of any spiritual attainment can only be accomplished from within ourselves. I of course realize that the great spiritual teachers throughout the ages have pointed "the way" and have saved many lives from much grief. I hope in all of my being that the many people teaching others any of their various paths; that are being discussed on this forum. will help those who come to them. I have expressed my doubts about several systems and gurus and teachers here. Only one of which has created a furvor of vitriolic mayhem between myself and others. I began my sojourn on this forum with an account of my inter-action with the Guru maharaji's system some 30 years ago, my meeting the Dalai Lama and other esoteric events of my experience. Questioning authority is a very old habit with me. It is one reason that many of my teachers have become annoyed with me -I need to see some proofs of their authority when they makes claims that do not ring true in my ears. I have very little blind faith to offer any more, save for what I have found to be true within my own being. When I read and hear things that sound false to me or carry emotional impacts that belie the words. I need to speak up and say a sort of -BUT NOOOOO!?! All that being said -I do agree that a real adept, a master, a sifu is an incredable aid to anyone's progress towards spiritual satisfaction. And I am with Michael Lerner on that -there are levels of spiritual attainment that offer total peace of mind and are not some high-falootin level-conscious quest for "immortality". Satisfaction and peace of mind are far more readily attainable if we just let ourselves stop trying so hard to attain some quantitative "level" of spiritual being. The level game of mystical prowess and spirituality in itself rings many a false note for me. I guess it comes down/up to what is it we wish to attain through these efforts? That is probably very different for each of us. So it may be a very huge fault of my own to question the validity of any system when it may serve to help some someones to find peace... I hope at some point I am able to get past these issues and let it be ...

Attention all (cosmic)-shoppers! Peace has sprung out in cyber-space today. Behind the scenes PM's have settled the differences between our two loud-mouthed(typists) and fellow Bums who have shown themselves to be two most annoying adversaries. They will try once again for a pax between them. __________________________________________________________________________________________!! For my part hence-forth... I shall respond to any personal BS on these threads via PM only... when ever possible, and not waste the time of you'se guys... Sorry to deprive the many of you who have spectated this thread so religiously... The hit count amazes me... And that is the oddest thing about this slam-fest -just how popular a thread it has been... Like TV ratings the drama got the eyes...- What is wrong with that picture? Maybe the issue of what we want from these threads should be asked. None of us could stop ourselves at some point. As annoying to all of us as it was; it fed on itself. I hope that that in itself shows us something about the strength of our all too animalistic natures, when our higher selves can be swept aside when the animal is threatened. It may be we can each learn from that. Beware -The power of the dark-side... as it were. If indeed we can look at what happened here and learn from it then we can go forward a little wiser.

Well ladies I doubt if anyone is more tired of this than I am. But this thread is about selling the trip/course that denty has been shilling for . darebak- you seem to be missing the point that I made. I threatened the fool to ground him. denty as continualy insulted people and belittled any other sytem of thought than his own. Nothing anyone has tried worked to stop him behaving that way. I forced the issue and brought the situation down to one of warning him with a response that he would not like in order to get him to appologize and behave in a more useful manner. It worked for about an hour. My whole point is that these things he and his teacher are claiming to offer only come from within ourselves. To try to sell them back to us is fooling those of us who are desperate to acchieve higher planes of consciousness. This thread is about the money. I am addressing the issue of truth in advertizing, shilling and the honesty integrity and honor of the shiller. Each of us has our own path to find. That is the deal. What they offer is yours already, it can not be bought and sold. The realities of awakening our minds must be worked for and acchieved. They are commoditizing the process, which I find repugnent. I will do what I can to undermine any such BS. I am (too angerly) making my views on using peoples' spirtual needs to glean money from them. I meant to insult everyone who would listen to this BS from denty, and have that reaction reflect on the whole situation. If what is offered were real and being fairly offered without alterior motives none of this reactive BS between us could have accured. If it were real I would have been calmly laughed at and it would have gone no further. The reaction proves the weakness inherent in the sytem being offered. The tactics used were desperate and I put no more values of evilness on them than I do any other willful and well-meaning fanatic. I also disagree very strongly with the president of my country on most issues. I see him as mis-guided and dangerous. He sees himself as doing the work of godalmighty- whom he even claims to have conversations with. When people say they have a direct channel to higher powers I get concerned for anyone who would listen to them. It is usually delusional. Until I see some evidence of anything but an effort to claim the higher ground such as an effective grasp of spirituality that looks like it may be real. I will call them on it. And expose them IF they are being false to the values that they claim. I have met people who are holy and they are different than most of us, they do profoundly change those people who get close to them in extraordinary ways. They do not allow themselves to be pimped out by fools. You should have noticed that when denty took my warnings seriously he became another person altogether in his attitude. He changed to adapt and an hour later reverted to type. This is the only person I have had any interaction with that claims to be behaving as a result of the teaching he has recieved and that he is now pimping to us on this thread. As someone else noted denty is a mess. Is this not warning enough? I have no need nor wish to become involved in this thread as I have been. But I will be who I am at all times. Not change my personality to keep a false reality choogling along. If I insulted people who believe in this system being touted on this thread that is a bi-product of my reaction to the salesmanship they have allowed to represent them here. Its like feeling sorry for Chuck Heston when Michael Moore asked him to appologize to the people of Columbine for going to their town a few days after the school shootings there -in order to promote the NRA and not blame guns for the tragedy. He set himself up as a shill for the NRA, they are selling a dangerous product. Many people found that abhorant. Even long time NRA members were aghast at him doing such a thing. I have been PM'd by a couple of Bums who are looking into DSV's system and I wished them well. I do hope it is really helpful for them. They said that they could get past denty and try to learn from DSV -I find that to be gullible. If there were other bums who had been involved and related to us in a meaningful and semi-sane manner I would not have these doubts, nor need to express them.

Welcome! You sound like someone I know. I also had a difficult time getting onto the lobby some months ago ... but our local wizard Sean O. got me through it ... I look forward to hearing your accounts of the many practices you have been involved with.

Darebak- My first entry on these boards was an admonition to Ron J. that he should have his ass handed to him for the way he addressed people. I am a street-fighter and warrior on many levels I do not think of war as an abstract idea. I understand what people who crave power over others are about. They come in many modes of being and types. They take advantage of people for their own advancement. That is all I have seen from the likes of Denty. I have known many like him, they will use every means at their disposal to coerce and cadjole and lure people into their self-serving webs. They find the group that wants what they can promote as theirs to give and then get what they can from the poor saps who buy into it. Also, I do not think that the use of force or the threat there in/of is always out of bounds in our human interactions. It is the last resort always, but a needed recourse against the implacable. I admit that I can make enemies all too easily. That many of us have been subjected to denty's BS and lies and general shilling of what he believes to be real, but in fact wastes our time, is a matter you don't get. You have bought into what he says. I see it as BS, empty promises and shilling. Nothing I have seen on the foundation site has changed that. Selling words and methods of giving spiritual attainment or salvation is a scam. We can only attain these things from within ourselves through the actions we choose and our practices and hard work. We can not buy them. To hold out promises of secrets and methods of reaching what is ours-yes our very own- to begin with... is dispicable in the uttmost. The methods shown to glean power over us and lure us into this system should show us what to expect from this posse of spiritual posers. It is well researched and charmingly delivered by David Sham I am sure. But it is not his to sell. It is ours to discover for ourselves within ourselves. Most of us here know that. We are on honest paths that lead towards the light of reason and better ways to be ourselves. That any scepticism from any of us towards what denty offers is met with such vitriolic rancor and personal attacks makes the point of itself. It is a bubble that he is desperate to protect from being pierced. Yes I threaten retribution on those who attack me. And those who willfully try to harm those whom I can be of aid to. I feel that retribution has been accomplished by denty's own activities here. If you can still buy into his empty BS because you agree with what he has read and re-offered as his own truth then that should suffice for you to be happy. For myself I see it as regurjitation of ideas and facts with no heart no soul no honesty no originality no integrity and no humor though he claims to be sharing all of those attributes... ( for our benifit). Learn to hear the ring of truth in what people say. It is there for us to hear. My warnings are just to be fair... I am easily provoked to violence when confronted with implacable dishonesty and what I see as the dangerous taking advantage of my fellow beings by greedy liars and con-men. They are only offering to you what is yours already. You do not need them.

True & beautiful. I needed the reminder... You are right as usual Harry. I will try the ignore option again. There are enough sensible people here that are able to expose the BS of threads like this without my angry two cents. Denty found my weak spot... attack me and I am compelled to respond. Now that his own integrity and honesty have been shown to be missing, I no longer need to pay any attention to his aspersions being cast at me. He has shown himself to be without honor, courage, honesty or integrity in a most public manner on this thread. I can ignore him and indeed now must try to ignore him all the more as he has shown himself to be of so low a character. It has always been part of general wisdom handed down in many cultures that we do not associate with people who do not deserve our trust. The issue of the PM proves what I have tried to get across. I sensed early on that I could not trust the guy. It is not a good thing to be proved right sometimes. That it came about through Denty's own actions, also proves that truth will surface. Even in our own natures we can not hide what we want to hide from the world. I have shown myself to be too easily provoked, I again appologize for that.

Pietro- I'm envious of that plan! A ferry from Greenland at this time of year - man thats livin'! I was lucky enough to have spent a day on Iceland -(another cheapo flight situation) and had a look at the run you'd make...from the air. the Canadian coast is amazing too... I always travel overland when I can -keep yr feet on the ground . The time will be worth it. Sorry 'bout the links, but thanks for the heads-up on that... I want to keep my links current and useful so I'd like to hear from anyone who has knowledge of Euro & Asian departures that are reasonable...With a site that I can link to. Let me know if you'se Bums meet in NYC I can stop by anyway... These are very hectic times for me with trials and tribulations of many ilks. But a meet-up sounds grand! Happy trails!-Pat

This is just too crazy. Sean, Sean, Sean, Is this what you want? ok seanseansean sean dentysean sean -will that hold you for a while? Do you not have any inkling of how you sound ? In my case it seems that you have changed personality since your 2nd to last & last entry directed to me. Or did your puppet-master tell you to appologize- (as he has some understanding of my tradition, even if you do not)... and you didn't really mean it? The ignore function was a fairly good buffer when employed, In fact Sean I hope you would please use it for me so we do not need to inter-act so much... I really do not want you to address me on this forum, I have asked you to leave me out of yr BS many times I have tried to ignore you and you made a game of it. Then you went too far and had earlier today, the sense to listen to whom ever told you to appologize. Now please do not address me any further. If we are on any given thread together, lets stick to the issues at hand. I do not value your opinion I can barely tolerate your grasp of book-gleaned facts, and have serious doubts about your honesty and integrity. So DROP IT. I have sympathy for you but really don't need to share your situation any further. It is a very wasteful use of a precious resource -(this Forum)- I appologize to all here for my part in this crap, be it Tong or Mafia-. I shall go back to trying to ignore the entries that I have previously felt a need to answer. The ignore function is far from perfect but it has been a fairly good buffer between me and this on-going BS. I suggest it's use for anyone annoyed by or fed-up with my comments as well- Namaste-PDG

Now you are making sense Sean. I do think though, that what you believe to be very clear is seldon transmitted to us in a very clear manner. Your last post had the tone of someone who is not a fool playing at spiritual searching. Knowing that you can be reasonable and open-minded and compassionate in spirit, gives me hope for all mankind! Keep that mind-set and these flame-ups will not happen. I accept your appology and return mine in kind- I do not have anything but respect for yr erudition and yearning to understand Taoist concepts. I in turn have little erudition and lots of experience. Such an Oil and water mixture needs severe shaking to ever create an emultion. And that state of inter-mixture seldom lasts very long, at least on any noticable plane of existance. At the quantum level things changed a hell of a lot and some inter-mixture will remain as part of the new constant in flux...So there is hope for us yet to get past these bouts of animosity. I hope we are on the same "side of the light" in most ways. My serious concerns & doubts about David's system may be, and I indeed hope are, ill founded. When we each & both get and keep our minds back into the cause of our efforts ... where we are striving to find ourselves, our inter-actions will be smoother. Namaste-PDG

http://www.hotfare.com http://www..lowestfare.com May be of some help - I offer my place -just an hour from NYC -But it looks like my landlord (AIMCO) may win their case to evict me because I refuse to sign their lease. I am using a (free) legal services atty. who is amazing but just too busy to be of much use in this. He is going for the expiediant compromise, which won't serve the cause of tenants rights, which is the only reason I am making the effort anyway.. . I should be able to stay until June 1st no matter what, since there has been no court date set yet. If that can be of use, you are welcome.- Pat

Can do...Lozen it would be my profound pleasure to end these retorts and arguements... But I will always respond to challanges and lies. Particularly when directed towards systems that i have found worthwhile, by someone who has no credibility other than some erudition. Also I think the correct terminology is Tong crap.

I guess we need a yawning smiley face.

Yo Inner-space cadet- I like the tag you've chosen. You seem to be pretty self-aware already. Know thy self is the best start I can think of. admiting our needs and addressing them. You got that. You seem to be very honest and what is of great value in this -honest with your self. The spiritual path is usually discribed as a quest or seeking or searching, this is because answers come in many forms from many directions and we each learn what we need to know when we are able to get it. Before then we may have been exposed to knowledge but we just weren't ready to get it yet. So explore and follow-up on what appeals to you. There is no set path for all of us -just trial and error and growth in small measure or when we start to get something important in a flood. Inklings, satori, revelation, epiphany -there are names for the progress we glean. Keep your self as open and honest as you portray yrself to be here and now - You will realize that you are already on the way. Your way. Namaste-Pat

Just like Wavy Gravy ran " Nobody" for president to protest a corrupt political system, I now vote nobody to protest a corrupted spiritual system. Why should we contribute to the fleecing of our fellow beings ? http://www.nobodyforpresident.org/ (...on the Birthday Party ticket - let'm eat cake!) I vote no Bum to be fleeced option. Those who wish to go already are plentiful- (as in born every day)... Let them tell what they can & what is not said will have as much value to those of us with open heaarts, minds & spirit...

Its the motorcycle thing that gets me... the challange! ...It could be a perfect initiation rite for a cult I can think of. First you f-k a symbolic victim of fleecing in an orgiastic triumph of trickery and showing off as power-mongering. Then you can join in on fleecing/f--king yr friends and followers. The fleecing factor is alive and well in this world, so it could be celebrated in such manner... In any case- I'll pass... I like a gyro now and then... How could I look my ewe in the eye after such a repast?

What a great avatar! There is -GWB- machismo gone bad indeed and fact. There is a dark side to male agressiveness, as in most human attributes, even pity and coy/sillyness as other such more feminine qualities can be quite distructive, when used inappropriatly or more exactly in a dishonest way. Things like honor and compassion seem to remain basicly benign, but I guess if I think about it -there may be instances when these also are applied in harmful ways... Also, it is dangerous to provoke those of us who are not put-off by our animal natures but use them to learn a deeper understanding of this human experience we share as spirits in human form...The mainstream males- & females too- in the west particularly, have no inkling of what that is about. Thailand is a society that addresses these issues in a very up-front way. Most people know what they are and still allow for spiritual ascention. When it is time to fight, most -fighting aged-monks in Thailand would put aside their monks' robes and fight the commies or whoever- and then go back to being monks. To every season, turn turn turn . Maintaning ones' protective & warrior/hunter instincts and still attempting to lead a spiritualy ascending life is one of the tougher balancing acts. It is important to me not to deny one for the other, it is just another aspect of Yin/Yang to unite the paradox of...I believe a master transcends as a whole being with all of his/her nature intact and controled by the inner-most (sacred spark) being's guidence and sagasity. It is difficult to find a balance, that is also why Taoism is important to learn and teach. It is all about balance. Using everything at its correct time for use.

Where is that taught ? Does some old book like say- Zen and the Art of Motercycle Maintanance cover that? It could be a popular act in Amsterdam by next year- now that the trick is being bandied about.

Denty- That was not an appology. Fool. This is not over til I say it is over. You have called me out as to the value my traditions and knowledge. I have told you I expect an appology or an acceptance of my challange. Which is it boy?

I once said something similar to Allen Ginsberg when I greeted him at an exhibition of his photos. (We had met socially before. He was a teacher to the poet/publisher/teacher Jeffrey Cyphers Wright who I had/have worked with for years... as well as the close friend to the parents of my great friend Mike Savage, Allens' mom and Mike's grandma -not remembering which side of the 'rents ...were best friends and neighbors for years etc...) He looked at me as if I were crazy and said - " SHARING- hell-you wanna buy any of 'em?" I always wished I had the bucks at that time- there was a shot of N. Cassady that was classic... But glad ya like em- any clues as to the third one? Maybe I should start a seperate thread to help the research effort that I have let slide lately... Namaste

Wrong again as usual, Denty. Our interaction began with a question I had about your statements concerning the oneness of all Buddhist practice being essentially one united way. I disagreed and in what I later found to be your typical response mechanism you attacked me personally, as to my level of knowledge etc... You are the one who makes the arguments personal in weak-minded efforts to change the subject when you are called on lies and mis-information. I have only annoyance at you and believe that you are wrong about many things that you state as fact. Personally -nothing you are nothing but a narrow-minded fool who I have no more patience for. If you challange me as to the validity of my traditions it is within my tradition to take these slurs as asking for a fight, as it is in many cultures around the world. I have never backed down from a fight about truth as I see it. You have done this several times,so I do assume you want me to prove that I can project my qi into you and make you believe that what I know is real. That is my tradition at these levels of claims of internal power. So I see you as a liar and a coward with arrogance that can not be backed up with anything more than fart-jokes. Your lack of seriousness about the reality of our interactions is very foolish. That you promolgate a system that promises the gain of important human attributes for large sums of money is the issue. You are lieing if you claim to be able to sell immortality. If David says he feels as if is being black-mailed my point is made -He has something to hide. Power- play !? As if the powers David claims can be threatened, if he had them they could not be threatened. This is not personal until you attack on a personal level. You have done this with me, many others - and not taken my response seriously. So far you have only shown yourself to be a very silly- as in not to be taken seriously -sort of book-worm. I have let you know what I expect of you boy. You have made this personal as you usually do with most here. I am letting you know , with fair warning that you have gone too far with me. That you, and yr ilk choose to play around with important human attributes that take many years to achieve and then try to sell them for huge profit... will of itself give you yr come-upence -I do not think I will be the vehicle for that come-upence ...but it could be. You are a shill for the corruption of what should remain sacred. And you have the nerve to do this with arrogance, rudeness and ignorant lies. I will always appose such miscreant behaviors. It is nothing personal Denty - I oppose what you say, and do and how you do it, true... BUT it is the content of your BS more than anything else that I challange - as have several others here - these issues you never address-you make it personal as if it were so. It is not. It is the content of your schpiel that I question. You NEVER answer any of us in an honest way when your posted beliefs are questioned. Any thinking person will understand you to be false in your stated beliefs if you need to avoid answering simple questions as to their validity. You have made this personal and then refused to face the fact that you have created an enemy. That is foolish sonny boy ...I will stay on yr lame ass as long as I breath to expose the BS you are trying to sell a needful community of seekers. And yes, once that kind of money is spent most people will claim rewards -just not to appear foolish to others. its a pretty good racket Denty. I just hope there is at least one honest practitioner that goes to yr shangrala and lets us know the truth of it. It would in fact make me much happier to be wrong than right in this. People need good teachers, it is very hard to believe that you represent one , much less are one. You have no ability to get personal with me. You have not been allowed in the door.

Liedee and Lozen- I am sorry that you think this is a personal macho-duel. It is not so for me. I see Denty as someone who is trying to sell something that he is promoting in a very dangerous way. If what he offers were really available through master to student transmissions it could not be sold nor offered for sale at any price. To do so puts the lie to the process from the get-go. This is about respect for lineage and ability to show something real- not just promises of magic tricks and pie in the sky ideas of immortality that can not in truth, ever be offered for sale. One does not gain anything of true spiritual value through the buying of it. This was so in Martin Luther's day when he liberated Germany from the tyrany of the Roman Church's selling indulgences. It is true today for seekers of eastern- born knowledge and abilities... This is not as personal as it may seem written here in cyber-space . For me it is about truth and lies. I read lies and challenge them. Someone calls me names and disparages my traditions, family, person and whatever else he can imagine to make it personal . This takes the burden of proof off of the original statements and attitudes and lies that were challanged. I respond as my tradition dictates and things escalate...-taking the focus away from the original lies and sale of snake-oil. You are right in being annoyed at the tone and the rancor - but the subject at hand is not our personalities but the truth in what we are expressing here. Anyone selling immortality is not to be trusted, they could not be trusted when other cults and religions offered it under different names, and never should be trusted. It is an ancient evil and needs to be brought to light when ever it raises its ugly little head. You can not buy and sell immortality. Period. Anyone offering such a thing is below contempt, because the search for this possible human experience is precious and many souls have lived very hard lives to help others find the peace of mind that such knowledge of eternal being represents. There are MANY paths to it, never just one, and to sell one as such is a dispicable notion and a travesty. In fact we each have a path that makes such knowledge possible. Internal / eternal peace of mind IS available to everyone of us. Most here sense that. To prey on those who would seek such knowledge with empty promises for lots of money is nothing new. But sticking one of these silly happy faces on the sale of such does not make it right, nor real. - Namaste- PDG