Wayfarer64

Here is a poem I wrote when I was 17 & very much In Love... WHEN WE MAKE IT (1971) When we make it gal It's like always in the tree-tops It's mudslidin' happy and warm river swimmin' It's sunbeams dancing with rainbows and singin' It's flowers spreading petals and flutes in deep woods It's church-organ majestic and mmm-mmm good! When we make it gal We transcend like mantras We're sky-born and gleefull We may just go bonkers We're in a dream state so peacefull (rockin' and rollin') When we make it gal, it's like church bells a-tollin'... When we make it gal There aint a devil for miles 'cept me and I'm flyin' There's no scent of bad apples or lost souls stopped tryin' Aint a tear-drop or rain-drop, 'cept those the sun freed Aint a bit of regret or bein' discrete There's no cloud overhead or rock underneath, No cloud overhead or rock underneath. (Ah... to be young and in love...I sang in my chains like the sea)...Namaste-PDG

This is an interesting thread. My 2 cents ... Karma is the level of actual activity that takes place on the mundane plane of existence. It is the web of life and all of its interactions. These may be caused by or effecting other happenings that are related through space/time... It is not by any means mindless, but it is basic & intrinsic to being - with or without intention, it is what happens on the physical planes of existence. The Artha level is that of community/political interaction which I believe is also common in many other animal species - not just us human-beings. And there is the Dharma -Where spirit exists on or with any and all other levels of being. It transcends all levels and is entwined amid all being and doing... But not all beings are aware of it. To be aware of it is the START of a spiritual life - usually built on compassion...Which then starts to transform one's karma through merit, practice, intent, being etc... It is all one thing in the Tao-which is the irony for me - Where does free-will end and fate begin? Do we each just get our just desserts? Yum... or is that Yab-Yum?

YO Jim- Either you grabbed the wrong qoute or think I'm someone else-AiWei -perhaps...In any case please clarify what your going for here...

I just wanted to add this explanation that I also added to Sean's recent thread... It seems very pertinant to me right now...This is one way that our karma is changed... Sadhana. In mediation when the mind is withdrawn, and the lower kosas are merged into the Supreme, then samskaras can ripen and be expressed when the sadhaka returns to normal consciousness. This is why life can have so many changes and ups and downs after starting meditation. Namaste-Pat

Hey Sean - This has been a very informative thread. I began thinking of your past posts about the changes that you have been going through-the roller-coaster of life as it were... (Which is something that I also have been experiencing lately)...This passage seems to offer an explanation that fits our possible circumstances... Sadhana. In mediation when the mind is withdrawn, and the lower kosas are merged into the Supreme, then samskaras can ripen and be expressed when the sadhaka returns to normal consciousness. This is why life can have so many changes and ups and downs after starting meditation. One thing will lead to another, inevitablly so, hang in there!- Love to all- Pat

I was extremely lactose intollerant as a child and would get ill just smelling milk when I was 4 or so-which was also when I tried to be a vegetarian for the first time- after watching a morning TV show called Modern Farmer where the Chicago slaughter houses made it onto one mornings' TV fare. That go me off of meat for as long as I could hold out against my mom trying to force me to eat it.- The smell of frying bacon was what got me... & once I ate some my mom wouldn't let me go back...It was too big a hassle in the 1950's I guess- no Health food stores back then...Soy must have been very hard to find etc... The last few years I drink some milk and like it a lot... or 1/2N1/2 - or cream with coffee in the Am...After not having it for so long it is a real treat for me now- I do think about the health questions, but after living through the excesses of the 60's & 70's I guess I'll manage to survive milk at this late date...

Thanks Chris- This I can relate to. I also began with very basic paths. Judo,Hatha Yoga, ShaoLin (Hung Gar)KungFu and very simple quiet meditation techniques. There was no seeking after power or immortality etc... Just a yearning to quiet my heart and mind and be as loving and open as I was able. Taoism has led my to seek oneness with the wider world and to seek a mindful approach to finding a way to be the best me I can manage to be. I think that I understand the inner heart aspect of your calmness. I hope it is contagious ! Staying centered and calm(with a sense of humor)- usually has proved to be enough for the typical and even the extaordinary crap that enters my life. I seek no master other than my own self-mastery. I am not sure that can be taught by anyone. - Which is (I think) - the point that PapaPaul makes... I have no need to watch parking meters, but I don't follow leaders... I am on a path that is getting simpler and harder, narrower and more sure, steeper and more breath-takingly wonderous. It is scary and sublime. I am only able to take it because I trust that it is mine and mine hearts' alone. I am mindful of my heart my breath and my life's will and the dispersal of that same will...I am thankful to be a loner on this path... I hear the banging on drums and racket from some other paths here and am grateful to be able to turn away and inward for a breath of my breath- the stuff of life the air that transforms my being every moment . the breath that sustains me the air that feeds my heart and lets me forget my head and its world of striving and figuring out the angles and the way to prove what ever... So... This monkey brain thing has some merit. I have seen monkey forests on a couple continents...The monkeys are noisy and out-siders are not welcome. The monkeys vie for power & status and some are nasty as often as not, This depends a lot on the leaders' direction as much as anything else. A good monkey king brings peace and tranquility. There are often contenders who stir things up and the females usually make the peace and harmonize the group, while the young mellow everyone out with their play and foolery. We are not so different.

Ah - I thought that was the couple next-door on the meditation & sex thread... Seriously -Thank you for reminding me to listen to my own heart as often as I can... It is a very fine form of meditation, listening to ones heart listening to ones heart listening to ones heart all the 10,000 things and their aspects, all the reasons, all the head-banging...just fades away listening to ones heart...It even helps us make up our minds! yes I feel better now...

Hey there Dunbar- Welcome to the TaoBums. You sure have jumped in with both feet on this. How do you know Denty, through Winn etc? It seems you also studied with Winn and had a poor experience. Thanks for the warning. I would never have looked him up anyway... still - what we don't know can't help us. It seems sad to me that you would need to enter this thread when there are so many better ones going on. Being hurt by a mentor or teacher is a bitter thing indeed, It is a shame to see the results here with so many so obviously distraught by the past they shared with Winn. Chris- You seem to be rather well balanced for someone who has studied with Winn... the rest here seem distracted from reality & somehow imbittered...Why have you come out seemingly unscathed? Did you not take him/his teaching to heart? As I stated earlier I have no real interest in studying with any of the people mentioned here. The idea of a path with heart has a ring of truth to it - but then we all can only make do with what we have been exposed to and what we bring ourselves to be exposed to. I sense no quiet hearts on this thread, not even mine. In truth, I am worried for and about all the pain being emited from here. Sean- I am beginning to understand that you have been deeply hurt, as you state - by Winn, and need to get that pain well away & out from your mind and being. It is bound to be a hard and painful process. Just please be aware that sometimes the excorsism of your pain is felt by some of us here as unreasonable attacks toward us and not just your getting rid of your anger in anyway that you are able to do so. Now that I can get a sense of where your anger comes from - I can only sympathize and wish you well. BUT-I do ask you to TRY to be aware of the irrational levels that we all are capable of reaching when distrought. The reactions from a few of us only made you more angry and that is also too bad. I know that I never had any ill-will towards you as a person, and I believe that Michael is also sympathetic to you as a person. Now that reason for the anger you emit is more clear, much has been made clear. I will pray for you to also transcend the pain and get on with a more positive approach to offer. Let go of the pain and the anger as well as you are able to . It is one of the hardest things I have ever attempted to do. But I have found that attaching my anger to any available target is not productive. I suggest writing a heart-felt letter to Winn explaining how he has hurt you. Not to make him feel guilty, but to let him know the facts of the matter and not be complacent in his methods, which seem so very distructive from my point of view... I trust this was not too much of a "Dear Abby" take on these matters I do not think I have any answers- I just wanted to express my concerns and try to heal... Namaste-PDG

I am so very happy this came up. YES YES YES! The inner reality we all share has the most readily available connection through Music. My dog loved Miles Davis and would bound over to sit in front of the speaker whenever I played the Kind of Blue album...(Yes album as in 33 &1/3 on a turntable... I am that old!) He really perked up when Miles' horn would came on, with his head cocked and an attentive wide-eyed expression as if he was learning some magical knowledge. The YiJings Enthusiasm (16) - is all about music and the uniting influence we share through it. As a semi-pro musician -I know that when I am playing and the music is just flowing through me I am never closer to being one with all...From the unity of the band and the audience being with us in spirit, to the transcendent feel of the musical ideas that prompt me to hit notes or shift tones etc...It feels like a larger spirit than my own takes-over my being and I am just a tool for my muse to use as she will...That is the good stuff -and it can't be touched by anything other than making love - for granting me some cosmic unity and bliss...

Sean, why keep this going? You have remained on my ignore list since I discovered the option, and I am usually happy to have it available, even though you are the only name that I have ever put on there. The function does not work unless one is logged in as a member of the TaoBums. I often come to this site to read without logging on or making any entries, therefore I am subjected to your BS as well as able to read any tid-bits of knowledge you may impart to us... I made my mind up about you long ago Sean. Your emotionalism makes you untrustworthy. I would rather not have to deal with your BS, even though you seem to be well-read and knowledgible, you display no sagasity or self-control... I have no ill feelings toward you Sean, except a mild annoyance from time to time when I am prompted to respond to some sillyness from you. I trust you will grow out of this phase, I hope so, you have too good a mind to waste in emotionalism. Still all of this is of no real importance -save how it disaffects the site. So let us go back to not addressing each other - if you please, unless it pertains directly to the subject matter of the threads. I have no horse in this race vis-a-vis Mr. Winn. It is too bad that anyone has given you cause to be so upset, much less someone that you sought out as a teacher. But you may still be able to transcend the hurtfulness with some discipline on yr emotions. Venting and warning of dangers to others are both cool with most of us here. But your claiming once sincerity and then attempted humor as to yr reasons for flying-off the way you did here is disconcerting. Making-up one's mind is a funny expression...Does it conotate one's fantasy or solidity of purpose? Making up one's mind...??? Just who makes yours up for you? Do we need make-up artists to do our minds like some women's faces are done?Are these our Gurus? Is there a make-up test available if we miss the boat on the first take? Can't we just shake hands and make-up, before we part once again into our respective corners?

This is too much - Just when I read one of Denty's usually blocked/ignored entries, (which was done to spare myself the shilling and/or infantile rancor)...My name is on there ! So ok I shall respond. Denty- How sweet and how silly of you to bring me into yr all too typical run of BS... I will not go back to see what started this current line of nonsense - but instead I will just guess that your erudition has still not tendered an iota of understanding. As you know, yr entries have been blocked when I am logged in, so, I seldom look at yr entries here -The last I did, when I was here without logging in- I thought you made a good point about Buddha's developing his (then) new path as one that evolved from older paths, and his understanding of those paths as a basis for his insights and enlightened attempt at a new direction. I logged on & complmented you on that insight. You do seem to have a grasp on the history and intellectual aspects of many matters addressed here. But you still exhibit no ability to comport yourself in a manner that is consistant with the basic virtues many here adhere to and seek to further in ourselves. Respectful discourse being the most pertinant. That you continue to behave so badly at any hint of doubting what you say - from other members of this forum is just sad. You seem to be so easily made so very angry. That you respond with such personal attacks as to question the truth of one's nationality etc is just weird. You exhibit a fairly good intellectual grasp of many aspects of our discussions here. It would be gratifying to see you get & keep a grip on your own emotions when challanged in any small way. I guess I will just have to keep you in the ignore section of cyberspace ala DaBums...Since I put you there I have had a much more pleasent experience here. For the rest of yous bums- I regret taking up any of yr time responding to Denty-

I would like to believe that a parapalegic may be an evolved or an evolving Taoist practicioner. I tend to think of everything as stemming from the imagination-which seems to have a deep & abiding connection to the creative energies I hope to harness this creative energy for my painting, poetry and music...Which are now the crux of my Taoist practice and intentions... I do not seek the more typical paths to immortality. I seek the creative expression that I feel passes through me from the source of my energy and inspiration. I intend these works to manifest as my true attempts at being one with all. I have no way of knowing if or even how this process works. But it is fine with me to attempt my life's path along this route... It has chosen me as much as I have chosen it- much like how love works in us, so does the drive to be creative with our energies leads us to giving our selves up as tools for our muses to use. This is my path to losing my ego. I can anly hope that one day it will be seen as such. Most artists are seen as egoists, many are -but lots of us have given our selves up to the glory of our spiritual selves -kinda like the classical guys who worked for the glory of their Gods....But modern.

I am more curious about than fearful of death. Allen Ginsberg claimed that death was his every third thought, the other two he did not comment on, but I always took him to mean that he thought about death very often indeed. Most of those whom I have loved in this life, have died already. Those that are still alive I don't want to care about, as I did those who died. This has tested me emotionaly, but aided in my non-attachment in a very profound way. I am in the process of ridding myself of my worldly posessions. I seem to be deeply attached to some of them, mostly books and art works - that hold deeper meaning than mere material values. I remain intent on getting some value for them as I give them up- and this makes me laugh at myself. So I am now in the ironic position of having things of value but very little money. I need to change this to very few posessions and enough money to make a new start in Asia. So far, this plan is not working out for me and I feel blocked by powerful forces in my attempts to get my life on the right path now. So I am rethinking my plan and am now only planning for short-term results...a long fast and meditation to sort it all out. In the mean-time any TaoBums who want anything on my site -WWW.pdgart.com - now is the time to make an offer for anything or things that you may like to own. I am in the right frame of mind to let you have them for very small amounts of money, compared to their real value. I want to be done with them ASAP. My things have been on my mind because I need to sell them, this is the ironic situation I have created in trying to force myself into a new balance and way to be. What I am trying hardest to be rid of has taken over my life! It reaffirms my belief that striving is usually counter-productive. I shall cease all efforts for a while except to be polite and acommdating to all questions and offers that may come in. Creating a new way to be me is proving very hard to do.

Hi there all- Freeform - I did start a new thread about the natualist elements we are discussing here- see forum...THE NATURE OF BEING NATUARAL I like very much the idea of humanity having a new basis of being tied to the Dan Tiens. It reminds me of a book about some problems we face in evolutionary terms as a species, I will try to find the title ASAP... I do believe that we are facing what some may call a paradigm shift in how the world is working and what we must do to preserve the ecological base and the further evolution of our own species. For me, a "natural" way of being is a matter of intention and the sense of being one with nature that is becoming more rare in our world. The self as part of the natural world and not an outside factor seems to be in doubt for some folks. If there is a doubt than I think there is a problem. We are all one thing in a basic Taoist sense that the universe is one thing, or even the innumerable potential universes are still one thing - stemming from the source- that which we have named the Tao... So, back to this thread's theme- sharing our bodies and energies and thus each-other in a transcendant act of love is Taoist in the extreme. Uniting two selves is as uniting two universes. Combining our lives into families and cultures is the most natural thing in the world. Not all of us are any good at some elements involved in this building of families, but there is a place for each in the "cosmic" whole of existance...

Where's Frodo Baggins when ya need him? He'd know what to do with such rings, and Samwise Gangi could assist as per usual...Gandolf will not be part of this expedition he is much too busy seeking a monkey to de-brain...But Gollum will be resurected as a crispy critter (and much reformed) to guide our intrepid questers to lala land.... I give this guy the NO SOAP award for sillyness personified... (Now get me one of those damn rings ASAP, I want to be silly too!)

abadaabadaabada- (I am left speachless here) This thread has me scratching my head in wonder and aaaaaaaamazment. Is this some sort of new approach to anti-qigong propaganda ? How did all of the many galabaluchian types of qigung get thrown together? abadaabadaabada 1 years practice = total great health forever?! The Dalai lama catches colds, my Hung gar master gets a cough... etc etc... Disease has its own agenda, spiritual & martial practices do not make one infallable to the worlds' many dangers. YIKES!!

Seriously this time- It seems we are addressing two seperate ways of seeking that may each lead to the same realm of consciousness and may actually need each other to get there. One being open-mindedness - so that the new and the awakening aspects of growth will not be missed... The other being accepting the tried and trued path of proven attainments, so that we do not waste time on the tried and shown to be untrue, (in the main)... Each of these paths may indeed prove fruitless to any one of us - if taken to the extreme. So again I would seek the middle way using both elements of path-finding to further my growth. Sean D. makes a very good point in that the Buddha - who indeed was an inovator and a finder of a new and valuable path; did start with the known techniques of his day and place- and stayed with them for a very long time. These surely aided his awakening, and allowed his own open-mindedness to stir him to allow his imagination full bloom... Giving the world a fresh approach to spiritual questing. Jesus had Buddha's teachings to build on - each prophet has used the past to gain a foot-hold on a greater reality and then to create a new way to see ahead for his followers. I for one, do not hold with the notion that the newest prophet is the best nor truest prophet, as is held in Islam of Mohammed... (For one thing- there is now the Bahai to further our human growth beyond the narrower approach of say the Wahabbis)...The notion of "best" just doesn't work in these matters it is a process that may use many aspects to attainment and it will- by nessecity- be unique to each of us. So in my final take on this I will not claim any right way nor wrong path for anyone to explore. But I will say keep an open mind no matter which path you choose- or you may miss clues to your own awakening.

Sorry Sean, First time I posted this on the wrong forum somehow?! So anyway- It has come up on other threads that what some see as natural may be abhorant to others. Some of us see it all as part of the Tao of being on this planet, healthy or unhealthy. Some think that what we, as humans often do - is not always "natural" and therefore not "Taoist" in its own nature as it were... I for one say that all that happens is by definition part of the Tao and part of nature. As Freeform has also stated. For me though, there is a big difference between healthy and unhealthy manifestations of our energies. I do not make moral judgements about many issues. They are after-all just my preferences. I state my preferences all the time, as you may have read.... Still, for me - one's intent is just as important as one's activity. This is because we are often ignorant of many aspects of what we are doing and can only just do the best we can with what we have at hand, be it knowledge, money, energy, whatever... This is at least a part of why raising ones' consciousness has so much importance to many of us here. We want to do better with our time and energy as we have the time and energy to do so...

Hey there Michael- But where is the SEX!? This thread is about the practicality of Taoist sex not saliva swabing... I have a serious offer to donate my sperm to be analized... I will need a willing donee for extraction in a purely Taoist manner, and for research purposes only, of course...

I wouldn't say that....But you can't lose what ya never had-Mick Jagger said that. I can only speak for myself and if that self is or isn't here or there depending on who is aware of me, and how aware of myself I am and what level of my own consciousness is aware of another level of my consciousness,,, well then: ... I am being observed in the quantum field again... stop watching me !!! I feel yr eyes! Let me be me in my own space/time continuum as The I that my own insipid desires to be the true representitive for myself...OOPS... I'm slipping out of reality... see ya 'round the cosmos.

Thank you Yen Hui - The question is very important to me at this time, (on many levels), because I have been working/screaming/sweating and pulling for environmental causes over the past thirty years and now when there is a ground-swell of awareness for those issues, I am concerned that it may in fact be too late. It may be that the balance of nature has been tipped into a very dangerous new paradigm... That it was "natural" for us to have done this as a species bespeaks of our lowest " nature" not our highest, most enlightened "nature"... So the various levels of being ourselves have manifested as a predictable lowest common level. I see this also when it comes to our "natural" consumerism for instance - it is a dog-eat-dog reality, that may be natural, but is not of our better natures. As seekers and if I may-wayfarers- I think and believe that we are obliged to take note of what is important in where our lives' energies and drives may or will not lead us. I make the distinction between may/will here because it is often easier to see what surely will not happen as a result of our doings than what may in fact happen. It seems easier to negate outcomes than to predict them. Cause and result can be narrowed down but seldom controled -at least this has been so in my life. Finding our highest level of possible consciousness is a worthwhile goal. Often I for one am distracted with the need to pay rent and stay warm etc...Our various levels of attainment have little value for most of our fellow human beings. That too is only natural...

Many Thanks Darebak-for that response. It is hard for any of us to know what is in the mind of others, much less the ancient mystic masters we hope to glean some knowledge from. We often seem to have a hard time understanding one-another here, each using Emglish and somewhat on the same page most of the time. The transmission of insight and knowledge seems to be pretty haphazard all too often, so going to the source is always a logical and often the best way to begin. I just don't believe that it is the only way. Most if not all of us have gotten up on our respective high-horses in the transmission of our beliefs and thoughts. We usually get called on it too. I understand yr outrage at our supposed claims of knowledge. We are being foolish to suppose any real knowledge of anything in this life, the complexities are much too vast. This is also one reason why the unity of Taoism has such allure for many western seekers. It offers a middle way with ernest and forthright assurences of belonging without much dogma to contend with. I agree with the idea that the real work is in deep introspection and in the stillness of meditation. The physical practices are needed to maintain the discipline required in a true and faithful questing. All aspects of our humantiy should be directed to the quest to make our own truths manifest. These truths may each be different for us at differing levels of insight and at different times of our lives. But each of us may still have a singular way to be a Taoist, no matter what course we take. To loose ones' personality is not the goal, only to shape it to a better nature found within us, and not one that has its being and goals tied to the maya surrounding us. I am sure there are many other paths to fullfillment than mine. I sure hope so. There is no reason for us each to follow on the same path.

Darebak- You keep insisting that only the ancient teachings of Taoism are of any merit. This flies in the face of change being the only constant. This is so in physics as in Taoism. Why do you insist that only the ancient masters can be trusted as "pure"- I believe they would find your conceptualization of their teachings anethma to the contant of the teaching. Going with the flow has many aspects-many get abused in western culture. But a reliance on ONLY ancient teachings-and in our case mostly translated works- is in essense the same as saying only those who believe in the resurection of Christ will not go to hell. It is ignorant in the extreme to stick to only your own conceptions as the only truth. Even if you are correct for yourself it can not possibly be the way for everyone. That is not the way of the way, which accepts all participation as part of the process...the values you are placing on these means to an end refutes the process inherent in evolution and regeneration-with change being the constant... The way to finding one's own most enlightened intent and purpose can be pointed to by many sources, even yours or Seans or perhaps the inegmatic Father Paul... Being open minded still has a place in Taoism, I hope.