Wayfarer64

I too am working to get myself to China. But I am afeared that my political bent will get me in trouble there. So... I am having some second thoughts about emersion into Chinese life. Darebak- I think you are being unfair to this forum... I think (& feel),- this forum is for a taoist-leaning give & take of ideas. If some entries seem profound to you, that is nice too. The unkind ring of your words reminds me of Denty, who you seem to follow somewhat. The lack of compassion in this rant is off-balance. It may also be somewhat profound for some. but to me it misses the point of these threads. I for one - am not here to teach/preach to other folks, nor to glean profound truths from them. I participate only to share on this common ground how we are relating to input from elsewhere, as well as with each-other... mostly about what we are learning of Taoism. The un-kind & ego-centric nature of many of Denty's responses I have addressed ad nausium, and I find that he has found a kinder voice recently. Now you seem to have taken up the slack in promoting the truth of that path over the truths of other paths. You may even be right. I see no reason for such an attack on the nature of this forum, except maybe your own frustrations, I hope that you will work through this transitional period. There is enough kindness and tolerance here to absorb the seemingly contemptuous rant, that you obviously needed to vent. It probably helps to get het-up sometimes. I for one take no umbrage.

Sorry I twice posted this on the wrong forum somehow?!

sorry 'bout that

Freeform makes this point to good purpose here. Who is to say what is natural when it is already part of our shared reality? The Tao accepts the changes we choose to make to our lives as we live in the world and try to manifest our intent and adapt to all the other changes being wrought throughout the world. The Tao, if it has a consciouness,!!??!!... couldn't care less why we do what we do much less what we do. Our consciosness and intent should give/lend/have some meaning to our own lives. The values we place on any of it has no real meaning in the Tao. What is - is just being - and each of us give it our own value and/or meaning as we will... The shallowness of this offer, having a joke as its real intent', amusing as it may be, has certainly superceded its seriousness. So it may be best to take this discussion to a new thread...

Hi again- Freeform- I do not disagree at all with yr take on it being natural, but i do believe many natural proclivities can be transcended or evolved away from or made more healthy... and to accept the naturalness does not preclude the unhealthyness or malignancy of many aspects of our lives. Disease is also natural, but most of us avoid diseases and detriments to ourown- and the general- wellbeing of our fellow creatures... It is natural for man to want to control the world around us, how we do this takes on a hell of a lot of baggage that needs to be thought through. It is also natural for many of us to scratch our heads in fury or wonder at the actions of our fellow beings. When I see someone recklessly destroy a part of the world I cherish- it is natural for me to want to kick his ass back into the slag-heap of humanity's foibles... It is natural for monkeys to thow their feces at intruders. Lots of natural activities can still piss us off when they happen to us or that/those we love - the same reaction I wrote about as sociopathy is a natural reaction, I just don't accept many such activities as healthy. Passion is pretty tricky, it is desire all juiced up with fullfilled expectation and release of tensions and the warmth of loving etc...It also is natural and can be healthy. But it is potentially dangerous for most of us, because it has so much energy and drive.

Freeform- I agree with yr basic belief, but I also see some folks as actually not being "natural" or maybe "evolved" is a better way to say it... On the Dharma level of consciousness all is one; but in the Artha level of consciousness there is much division of intent. There are also unhealthy psychologies out there. There are warped minds that refuse to connect to the wider world; some call them sociopaths or psychopaths etc... But the gist is that whatever they do not feel is a part of themselves is alien and to be challanged or fought. When historical figures take these notions into a war-stance we get hell on earth. The feelings of seperatness or pretty universal. They can be as benign as haveing a favorite football team or a sentimental patriotism. But then Nationalism or religious prejudice can also take over some folks' minds and intentions, creating racists,terrorists etc... In politics, which is a very large part of the Artha level - I see things on a historical/political level quite often. People like Bush Sr., Cheney & Rumsfeld were brought into power long ago by President Ford. They have very low levels of Dharma to influence them. They are backward, arrogant and have made the world a much more dangerous place to live. I believe this, many do not. We do not all have Dharma level consciousness. Some are even stuck in the Kharmic levels where sex and physical pleasure amount to their whole sphere of intent. I have known animals with higher levels of consciousness then some people I've known. So in a word there is evil out there - and it refutes the basic claim of oneness that most of us here at the TaoBums would seem to strive for. To clarify this a bit - I am not being PC about multi-culturalism. I think that cultural diversity is a wonderful aspect of our world- but one culture's truth, say holicaust denial from parts of the Islamic community must be refuted if ithey fly in the face of historical fact for instance... Tolerance can in itself become a weapon for ignorance. When it comes to sexual attirudes- to get back to the gist of this thread, some of us do try to bring our sexual behaviors into the Dharma level of our lives. Being aware of the diferent levels of activity and consciousness is just the start.

I'm not sure if being knowledgable about qi, yet ignorant on many other levels is typical or not. But, it seems likely to me. I have noticed that many biz majors who become execs can not hold a conversation on most basic matters of history or religion or culture etc... Just as many art majors haven't a clue about biz administration. The time it takes to learn some of the more developed techniques in qigong, may induce a sort of ignorance of other matters. The sage-like qualities we hope for from masters is often lacking in my experience as well. But I didn't ask my art teacher about biology either. Being well-rounded has great advantages but seldom leads to mastery, unless yr a Leonardo DeVinci... Human capasity seems to have all sorts of limits, and many of us have to choose where to place our energies to become the best people that our temperments, abilities and resources allow for. Qi seems to be real for me. When I retain Jing and use that sexual energy to manifest other intentions I have seen results. I have seen masters do things and have atributes that would be improbable at best if not for the explanation of qi manifestation as I understand it. I have often related my thoughts on these matters to a basic understanding of Quantum theory, that at a very basic level -thought and energy may be pretty much the same. Our collective sub/un-conscious minds hold our concept of reality together in a way. Not all scientific thinkers agree with this either, still it rings true for me as an acceptible explanation of how many are able to be aware of energies within themselves and use them at will- with practice of course!

Hi all- This liniage thing has become over-stated for me. I agree with the half of TaoMeow's take on it as being rather empty in some cases. I have no respect for royalty either for that matter. Many woderful people I have known were born out of wedlock and many great teachers have sprung up without liniage to help them. Authenticity has much to value, but so does adaptive change and new ideas from time to time. Many long-held beliefs can be mistaken. That being said, I do revere the ancients and immortals of many stripes, from the Taoists long before Lao Tzu to Shakespear or even Bob Dylan- I continue to learn from those who have shown the way...Truth can be listened for and its' ring is audible, from many sources. By the way, I recently read that there are more people on the earth today that can trace their ancestry back to Ghengis Khan than any other source. Which makes a whole lot of sense as he spent a lot of time and effort begetting. I will spend some time in trying to find out something about master Ni as well, he sounds interesting to me. But a grain of salt will also be at hand as usual in my questing. Thanks to all of you for all the info! Namaste

I am a pieces/horse with cancer rising and enjoyed but do not give much credence to - the many readings that I have had given to me over the years... This system actually seems even less reliable to me, I tried the questions again with a more conservative, less emotional approach and got a very different result... All these attitudes are a part of each of us and some may be more on the surface than others from time to time and maturity will change us etc,,, So I do not accept any system of such propensities very seriously as a rule... But I have always enjoyed thinking of the "cosmic" ties involved...

My father Stuart was a nasty alchaholic. who I don't think I ever saw sober- as he never lived with my mom in my life-time... As little children, my sister & I almost always came home crying from our visits to him. So, I have seen the dark-side of boozing- BOOZ, by the way is the name of a prevelant bottler of the past -& thus BOOZ was on many bottles long ago- the family of Booz still exists and I know some of them... But back to the topic- Now I have a few glasses of wine or beer a week and do not miss having more at all. I was also quite a lush in my 20's and early 30's.When I was playing music in NYC almost every night I was always drinking and given great herb to smoke and even coke to keep us going late into the night. I do not miss the drugs, but I do miss playing music so often ! I see now that so much of that life-style was pretty empty, the sycophants and groupies stroking our egos were not our friends, but we allowed ourselves to use each-other and it did seem to be a lot of fun. Our egos floated on such ephimera, some few of us got past it and found more meaning in our lives, some didn't. The whole scene was very addictive, even for me at a very low level of fame... I had the best of it in some ways, sitting-in with many great bands, but not often tied to one band...Semi=pro was how I thought of my career... I have not been much of a drinker for about 15 years now. It feels much better. I have not been taken in by the porn thing. Masterbation has always seemed so anti-social to me, it usualy makes me feel more lonely and sad than anything else, so why bother? I can still go into NYC and sit in with a band and pick up a one-nighter with some surity of sucess, vapid as it is, it keeps me on an even keel sexualy to continue my quest to get beyond all of such desires...It may take advanced old age for me...Old habits don't go away easily when they feel so fine. I have not given up on finding another real love to share my life with, and THAT answers all questions of how to find happiness for me... I do know some good hang-over cures and deterants if anyone wants to hear them...later- PDG

Hi all, Yen Hui - I don't know where to begin to address all that you have addressed to me in such a giving way... It is a coincidence that the first girl I was even in love with and became a roiling bundle of crazy passion over- gave me my first copy, (Wilhelm/Baynes) of the I Ching... back in 1968 when I was 14. I was also taking LSD and meditating for hours, adjusting to puberty and just growing-up much too fast. The I Ching gave me the only feed-back of any value at that time. The girl remained in my life for years after, but our sexual chemistry -though delved into, never developed into a deep bonding. My first experience in 1970, of making love (not just sex) was not (alas) with her. It was not until I was 17 that I met a girl with whom all elements were brought together and we had a very passionate and also a very transcendant love affair. When we connected it was as if our whole beings were mingled as one and we could travel together in a way that was similar to astral projection, but united. It seemed as if we visited other planets and star systems while just holding each-other, out in the fields of Hertsfordshire England- where we were. I was not ready for all of the the changes we were putting eachother through, nor was she. And what's more, her father was very opposed to her being with me. He is in fact an historical figure in the forming of the European Union and a very formidable man indeed. His disapproval was enough to place a wedge between us. I chickened-out of an eloped-marriage and we drifted apart. Though we did try to stay in touch across the Atlantic for years...I have always felt that we remained a part of each-others' true inner being. She has died some 5 years ago. Another woman whom I shared a similar sort of love with also died, while we were still seeing each-other many years ago now. The connections remain. I am now seeking to rid myself of emotional extremes such as passion or hatefulness bring-on. I seek the middle way in all I do. And of course often don't quite find the ability to keep to it without emotional swings due to life's many foibles and hurts... My early years in the freewheeling 60's-70's gave me all too many sexual experiences. I have had to sort through the many levels of contact to realize what is truly important for me now, and maybe should have been more important to me then. So love has often been somewhat tragic for me thus far. I make the choice to remember the bliss and reject the pain from my minds' occupation. Life indeed does go on. A sample of my poetry may give a better take on how I have seen these matters over time- http://www.pdgart.com/poetry.html I also agree with the various clarifications of often/always etc that you made... language will often need clarification after some more thinking and relating. Namaste- Pat the Wayfarer

Thanks Mat !! ...for that great entry... I think that may be the best explanation of "The Way" of sexual union I've read as yet... It is very refreshing after the semi-smarm of the "serious offer" thread, which may have led us to this thread. For me at this time, sexual liberation is another evolution in progress. Exploration is usually both mind-expanding and dangerous, which is the case with our sexuality as well as in the wider world of various explorations. But keeping a clear mind and open heart- usually will help to get us through to higher ground.

I took this "test" because of the apparent tie to Gurdjieff. I was not familiar with the system before now. I scored +7 as a two type and -8 as a nine type... So I must be in a nurturing mood right now... I will try again when I'm feeling less happy and open to see if there is a marked change... It does seem tied into a current emotional basis...If my circumstances were very different I don't think I would answer the same way. So I do not see the tie in to the true natural being that I am but rather the personality I am experiencing at the time. It may be that several takes would show a pattern, or a more comprehensive test...But I tried to think of these questions in term of the "usual me" and I am not so sure that I succeded.

QiDr.- You did the right thing. I for one would never send anything/money until the check had cleared and was varifide in my account. I use ebay and amazon to sell stuff and have had many problems but no actual fraud as of yet. The internet is not an easy place to do biz for me thus far. Greed and stupidity seem pretty universal, more's the pity!- Stay well & on yr toes out there!

Welcome to da Bums! I look forwrd to hearing from ya- This is a great site to share the Tao of cyberspace.

Pietro & Yen Hui- thank you for all the great input here- Doing and being seem entwined to me. Still I can see a potential person trying to practice a "Taoist" system of meditation and/or sexual techniques etc... that are not natural to them and therefore they are not in their own Tao as it were... But generally- practice of a system would seem to be at least offering one's energy to that system and in some way making one a part of that system. If we are each basically bundles of various energies and consciousness, it is hard for me to grasp the difference of intent, and action following that intent- from the being of what is manifested, be that Taoist or Christian or any combination of any philosophy. There are few here, for instance, that do not accept many different aspects of world-wide philosophy as acceptible to reason and therefore few of us seem to be pure in our Taoism or any other manifested belief sytem... It is my understanding that a combination of belief systems and philosophies is not uncommon in the world today. I don't mean to muddy the waters, but encluding many origins of ideas does not seem to refute Taoism for me, but to add to its construct; even if it is not derived from ancient and pure sources of Taoist liturature.

Searching for something else, I found this link and thought of this thread-... http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KW..._6/ai_n15394266 It seems to be a basic definition and may be of value to clarify terms and attitudes as Sean has suggested... In any case, my first reaction to making love - way back in the late 60's was "Sex is good!" What I was reacting to was the emotional warmth and joy of shared being, more than the physical release of tension and newness of the joining experience. Even in the beginning I realized the potential of oneness. But I had been studying the Yi Jing for a couple of years before I became sexually active. Techniques were added later... It is the interactive flow of being and shared experience that remains the focus of physical love for me.

I look forward to meeting yous bums. I may be heading west on my way to China by then...Perhaps we can wave as our trains pass through Kansas...

I for one think this was a healthy and interesting thread. And even a perky pair of tits for the fanale! I have no embarassment nor rancor from such an innocent exploration of what we offer as a group of Taoist practicioners. Michelle, If you were for real and chickened-out or were always just fooling around, no matter, it seems to me to be a cry out into the world for love. If you are indeed lonely and bored at least you now are reassured that you can find some responsive men even in cyber-space. Take heart; there may be someone to enjoy life with out there for you. The only real victim is your being taken seriously, as in the boy who cried wolf... Which should also be of little concern to you. Trust can be rebuilt. Still, if you do want to find and keep a lover, try to be more honest rather than blatant in your sexual desire. Depth of character and true emotional support is important to many men.

That the request was made for an erotic/sexual incounter to aquire knowledge of Taoist practice, and not just a platonic session of Taoist teaching took this to an interesting level of social interaction. I remain hopeful that the open sexual attitudes of the 60's and early 70's do not disappear in the fear of disease and a fall-back on more stolid & stuffy tabboos. All sorts of sexual freedoms had to be argued and fought for on many levels. There are many tabboos that make great sense and help to protect us from inbreeding and other harmful up-shots of sexual activity that can scar a soul and leave one weakened, debased or on the other-hand, depraved. I for one believe that sexual interaction is usually a natural and spiritually rewarding experience. It should not be made a joke of or used to assert power over each-other. Intimate relations are a very sacred part of life and even if shared "lightly"and openly as a joyful exchange of energy, not without some reverance to the partners we take. Sex is not love-making. The difference is huge. Which one of these, we search for of these very different aspects of our humanity is a very good indication of our inner development as spiritual beings.

Sharing physical love is a wonderful path to transcendant bliss. The Dalai Lama has even been quoted as saying he regrets never having had the experience of shared physical love-making. Such fluff as empty fantasy offers, is easy come easy go...No attachment can be made on meaningful levels with hedonistic frolics... But the other related thread on "real" Taoist sexual practice has some very interesting info from a few sources...

Ah, the sublime has been manifested...There is just enough emptiness to contemplate its fullness...

What a sweet invitation. I would be delighted to help you to understand and enjoy (my interpretation) of the Taoist concepts of love-making. You should familiarize yourself with the basic ideas, because a few of the techniques I am familiar with may seem something less than erotic, (ie soft initial entry)...But they tend to be geared towards a woman's pleasure and stimulation. The idea of a non-ejaculatory experience for the male often upsets a woman when she feels the experience should also envolve male orgasm. That is also the trickiest practice to master, particularly when a partner is very sexy and/or shall we say lacivious... Group sex is not a favorite scenario for me. I find an intimate one to one much more condusive for reaching a state of union that has any meaning. I do not enjoy the sexual company of other men. What sexual contact I have tried with men only proved to me that it isn't what I am into. To be honest I am a bit old for you perhaps, (53), but I retain the ability for, and interest in sexual exploration. Please visit my website (mentioned on my initial introductory post) to get a fair idea of who I am. I did enjoy the sexual revolution of the 60's & 70's, and a revitalizing romp that expresses those attitudes of sexual freedom is very much in order for these more up-tight times. My attitudes about sexuality have changed somewhat from those good old days, as I am far more interested in reaching a state of spiritual oneness with a partner than in reaching hights of sexual stimulation. This is to me the main thrust of Taoist sexual practice (pun intended)... In any event I look forward to meeting both you and Sean et al, for any sort of Taoist get-together. Whatever "benefits" our friendship tenders will be welcome.

Wavy Gravy can lead me to water and make me drink. I was born in the year of the Horse and I know you rider gonna miss me when I'm gone...