Wayfarer64

What's a tardigrade? Thanks JR, It may be wishful thinking but the species seems to be moving ahead... Its funny that that book chose some of the same critters I would want to try being. A tardigrade is an almost indestructibles little mighty mite... Not sure of species phylum etc... But it is a remarkable little adaptor that has been subjected to freezing/ boiling!! conditions and kept on kicking -try a google I think the spelling is right...-PDG

I believe in magic...In a young girl's heart, in music and freedom ...etc ...(The Lovin' Spoonful reference) So I guess Romantic Love is pretty magical! There may be a chemical explanatiion, but any pruriant fingers seeking to delve into such secrets and mysteries deserve less than Spring as an answer...(e.e. cummings reference) So as a word, magic means mysterious joy for me, not super-natural hooey... Any pics of the snow bunnies would be welcomed, just for clarification of course! I believe the abilities of young women to turn grown men into blathering idiots should be investigated! My mojo ain't workin as it once did and I need some counter-measures for dealing with these mysteries...) Presto-chango -Pat

Cam I concur. The problem I have is that here at the TaoBums we can make these ideas work FOR us. But most people that ask me my religion/faith are very Confused by my response. I have gotten to the point where I claim panthism, (all of the above as it were)...Rather than try to explain what I find useful in various philosophies. If I claim Taoism as my primary source of spiritual inspiration, then I usually have to explain Taoism in terms that bring folks -(who are generally unconcerned philisophically with anything)- Away from their Buddhistic misconceptions. So bringing them together again here works fine. But alas, where people know little of Taoism it is a barrier to understanding. I guess I was wearing my outside hat and keeping in practice for the Born-again Christians who bang on my door most weekends. I have even brought a copy of the Yi Jing to court as a substitute for the bible to swear on.-(Which did not go over well by the way), so now I just go with the bible and realize it IS ALL one in the end...

I think enlightenment is much more common than we suspect. The awakening is opening one's mind in a very basic way that most here at the TaoBums seem to have accomplished. The moribound billions are not there over the millenia, so enlightenment may remain pretty constant as a percentage of the population of human beings. But I would assume some enlightened beings get to reincarnate as an otter or an owl or even as a tardigrade just to round-out their kharma...Though I suspect that humans are generally the most enlightened beings, whales have much larger brains and may actually have a wider grasp of the worlds' actual situation as a whole... I know not how true these suppositions are, but it remains a joy to contemplate thus...Peace-PDG

El Tortuga -yr last post was one of the best things I've read on this site! Our mortal understanding will always be finite and limited compared to the infinite variations of infinity, so to speak... I should hope that even the enlightened have an ability to experience and learn from the ever-changing newness of creation... They just don't need to try to figure out the old patterns of their existance. Every moment offers new wonders to perceive and share being with... I like the reference to the similarities of quantum and eastern religions. That is something I have been caught up in and hope to get past after some more thought... Thanks for helping to keep me on my toes...-Pat

Hi again, I will retract the "any clue" comment. There is much there of value. But the many forms of Buddhism that I have studied can not come close to the deep "getting it" that I derive from my Taoist studies. It fits my world view much better. I suggest for anyone who seeks answers to their stumbling-blocks to consult the Yi Ching and use it as a spring-board into introspection of the way one deals with the situations at hand. Find out how you best can deal with the world with yr strengths and weaknesses being addressed as things that can be changed. My last two sentences refer to my understanding that there are many many options we have as spirits freed from this mortality. Avoiding the clinging to the past life or even our past within this life comes closer to my world view than holding desires , particularly if they refer to the future. Who is scared of life and death- I refer to those who would stay as close to A (clinging) as possible rather than risk the stubbed toe. If the Buddhism you practice is about not clinging I would say that is a path I can relate to. But any path that doeasn't have an acceptance of a journey thwart with struggle as well as adventure seems pretty vapid to me. Your practice of Buddhism seems pretty close to a Taoist approach. I do not wish to deride Buddhism, but to clarify that it is not Taoism. There are of course a lot of similar elements as most faiths and many philosophies share in searching...

OK- The basic example that comes to mind is this... If I need to get from point A (birth) to point B (death) and stubb my toe somewhere along the way to B, it is not my need nor desire to get to B that caused my suffering. It was the lack of attention that I gave to what I was doing that caused me to stubb my toe. It is my lack of being mondful that causes my suffering, my inability to deal with change, not my desire to leave point A. If I were to give up my desire or acceptance of my need to get to B, and accept point A as my lot in life, I would have avoided the stubbed toe and the experience of the journey as well, that was glorious and wonderful and did not have suffering as a componant. I have no desire to cease my incarnations but to learn from them and have more journeys well past point B onwards... The imagine reference is to the idea that all life is suffering. Only when we do not understand what is going on would that be the case. Many Buddhist concepts just do not ring true for me. Here is a guy who had no clue as to the realities of this existance for the first several years of his life. How was he to learn the adaptation practices most people learn to deal with hard-knocks by puberty. He had a lot of catching up to do and passed by the basic lessons of life to come up with a generic sort of pablum to address suffering. What he saw as suffering, most folks see as that which they transcend through hard-work and understanding. Being scared of life and death is a sort of hell itself. Get used to stubbing your toe now and then, to get on with the joys of life's journey. I do not think that Buddhism offers any clue on how to live, except for the compassion thing. But as El Tortuga has written, there is some good advice on how to approach death. Once there, I would not want to stay in the Buddhist model either. There are too many other options that are not hellish.

Yeah acceptance of what is , making it yr own - can work for over-coming much suffering. But since I don't think Buddha got it any more right than Jesus or Mohammed in his system or approach, I should recuse myself from commenting on his path. I am a Taoist. I do not believe that all of my suffering is caused by desire. I understand the concept, but see too many exceptions to buy it as a whole cloth. There is lots of suffering that just happens in one's life, accepting it and not desiring it to change could be foolish at times. We have will power to over-come obsticles and fears and harms that come our way without accepting their power over us. I do not accept the power of my desire as supreme in these matters I concider my consciouness of the situation to be supreme and my place in the situation can be adapted by my will power to change the out-come. I do not have to let it make me suffer through several techniques, one of which is accepting the bare fact of the predicament and going with it without letting it make me suffer. To a Taoist there are no set ways of dealing with suffering nor one reason to imagine we are suffering. The world is far more complex than that.

Keep it light and solemly-cheerful balance the emotions as yr able... for their last few days let them know they are loved and will be missed but don't be glum of morose or act like their leaving is some personal show of rejection etc... Let them go in peace and harmonious meloncholy. All parting is sweet sorrow. Then have yr catharsis- Get drunk, say a prayer, beat a pot or bang a drum, sing a song and say goodbye. If you're blessed with visitations don't cling, bid the departed a joyous new begining...Offer them food and drink for their voyage. Then try to remember the good times and not hold any grudges. The Tibetan Book of the dead has a lot of advise -But I haven't read it in many years... The basic was not to upset the dieing. Let them go in peace.

Hi all- Leidee, I'm sorry I was so unclear my message was to delve into the lonelyness and find out more about one's self through understanding one's inner resources. Maybe that wasn't clear through the well wishing for the process, but the process was to go with whatever you are subjected to in life and learn from it, not obfuscate or paint over it... I was using fruit images as a try at humor, laughing at one's self is also pretty cathartic at times. But the message is suffering is good for you if you can ride it out and learn from it. I am not a buddhist in any way. I do not believe in transcendence as avoidance.

Congartulations, I got the message that my vote had helped pass yr project. This gives me hope for mine ... http://www.givemeaning.com/donate/p-project.aspx?gg=800 I have eight days left, but just haven't been able to generate my base tenants to reply to the email from Give Meaning... they voted but didn't confirm! It isn't very clear in the instructions . See ya all in cyber-space...-Pat

My dog Hector had Buddha nature, and he was a pot-head too. He would follow a j around a circle to get the exhales and then yammer away at us in a very expressive manner that was emotive if not intelligible. He was obviously senscient and empathetic. I remain his devoted servant in his after-life as I was when I was his person for 15 years on this terestial plane. Everyone who knew him and was into reincarnation as a belief -was convinced he was an enlightened being. And one heck of a good friend too. I got him on my 20th birthday from the great German artist- George Grosz's grandaughter, who thought I needed some responsibility. She took me to the dog-pound in Madison Wisconsin to buy me a dog. We spotted each other at the pound, and knew we belonged together. He died on Feb 17th 1989. My mom died Feb 17th, 2005. This gives me the sneeking suspicsion that I could make the journey off planet on Feb 17th 2020... But If I'm late, Jimi can wait! Which is all to say, by way of an actual shaggy-dog story, (Hector was a border-collie)- of the truth about love and shared spirit. Synchronosity aside - I know spirit is connected between those of us who love each-other. So we need to be tolerant of each-other's foibles and get on with the sharing of this life, trying to make it better for each-other as well as ourslves... Keeping an open mind about who we can learn from is a good start. Any ism has flaws as well as merit. El Tortuga makes many good points about the nature of differing belief systems and when/how we may apply them to best usage... Namaste-PDG

Hey ya get lonely, use lonely... like the lemon/lemonaid deal... This life is no bowl of cherries and none of us get through without our hearts breaking. Only the hard-hearted lose-out. So take the knocks with some good humor as best ya can. Introspection and getting to know yr own strengths and weaknesses will last the rest of yr life, and I think that is the best/hardest part of our early adult life-lessons; we get to know ourselves. You can always stay on line with us -we are a pretty funny bunch sometimes! It may not be huggable love-the one yr with, but the vibe is there and caring in cyberspace should be enough to remind you of the potentials this wonderful world offers us... So buck-up me hearty. Yr not in some prison for having the wrong last name the last time ya tried to fly somewhere.

Hey again One & All- Obfuscation and revelation often go hand in hand with adherents of any faith, dogma, or ism...Encluding Taoism. I belive in reason as the basis of understanding. What is unreasonable should be held to tests beyond scuttlebut on the web. As Mark Twain said - I paraphrase - I have never let schoolin' get in the way of my education. Or as G.B. Shaw said of harm: There is not much harm in a lion; it has no ideals, no religion, no politics, no chivalry, no gentility... Nature RULES the rules of our existance on this planet. Our precepts that seek to supercede these rules to give ourselves shelter from the storm should always be questioned as suspect. Stay with it Tsa. Your questions seem at least as valid as the responses thus far.

I've had a gun pointed at my head three times in my life. The first I was about 14 and a guy wanted my belt, this happened in the basement of a Church in Princeton NJ. So be careful out there, shit happens ANYWHERE!- The thought that went through my mind was that if I made a move for him, the gun would then be pointed at my friend Nicky G. and he would be shot, so I gave him the belt -after he hit me on the head with it first. The second was actualy several times over a few days when I was being tortured by a rather nasty bunch of KKK/nazy miscreants. I resinged myself to death early in that experience and it turned out to be a great boon to my understanding of being and life on many levels. The third was when a cop thought I was a robber he was sent to apprehend. My thoughts were -crap now to die at the hands of an idiot cop, ain't that a bitch...I remained quite calm and expleined to him what was the actual situation -dumbed down so the fool could get it. In all three cases my mind did seem to slip into a sort of over-drive -adrenaline driven no doubt. The me that is me stayed centered.

I feel ya JR, You've already read much of what I would want to say to you here. But let me add a broader stroke... In philosophy there have been many who talked the talk but just didn't have the experience to be of any help at some levels. Marx never had a working-mans experience to help him make his points workable in the real world. Similarly with Buddha who had little experience with the slings and arrows of life. He thought he could address suffering, when for the most part, his suffering was self-imposed. He went from spoiled rotten to total avoidance of the mundane. etc etc. Many great thinkers are just that- but they don't have a clue about living a life. Theorou was a miserable scrooge to his family. Artists are even more screwed-up as a rule, creating both great beauty and much mayhem in their lives. Van Gogh was also a miserable sob, but many people now get great joy from his art-work. He, by the way spent some years trying to be a lay-preacher. So sharing ourselves with each-other takes many forms. I am sure you will find other dear friends in your life, but hanging onto the past joys that are not available now will not serve you well. It would be like trying to hang onto life itself when you die, which some believe to be what hell is. The futility of many of our wants cause suffering, the attainment of our desires gives us great if temporary joy. Don't give up on your ability to make new loved-ones any day of your life. Be conscious of your need for another heart to open up to and one may show up. And please, do not hold any prejudice - it may be a 400 pound street person that smells very bad... Ya just never know... Try throwing the coins with the Yi Ching. Meditate a bit on yr issues -(one at a time) and see what comes up... Or even just try to clear yr mind , throw the coins and see how what comes up applies to yr life.

The last place my Nana lived was a hospital. She remained pretty sweet right up to the end but the Hospital was sour/bitter lets just say- not sweet... That she remaining sweet was a great relief to all. She seemed ok with death even if her surroundings were sad, (even if thought to be needed for her). I learned a little about life from her death... what seems scarey at first doesn't have to be...We usually get over our fear of the dark and learn to respect strange dogs and fire without fearing them etc...Suffering can be overcome through courage and facing facts. We are in a world of vast horror and emmence blessing. We are born into situations that vary widely from place to place and family to family. Most of us are of the faiths and beliefs handed doen to us through the generations-maybe not so much on this site but generally in the world. As children we believe what our teachers tell us - first our kin and then our mentors. Our ideas get formed. Our minds get shaped and change and most tend to struggle to make some security in their lives. Job. home, family and a way to make all of that keep growing and progressing towards the goals we choose. But nothing seems to ever happen as we expect it to, conditions keep changing we keep changing and the world around us sure as hell keeps changing, What are we to do... buy insurence? Most look to find a belief system that will sustain them. In America today it is the dollar, the world seems to be tagging along on that creed with gusto these days. Most of us here are looking elsewhere -within ourselves- for answers...We want to avoid suffering we want to be happy. We need to feel that even if we suffer and are not happy that sometime we will be. We are human. But many here also have an inkling of the devine within and try very hard to stay in touch with this, nurture it make it our own in a way that reassures us. And we suffer for this as well. I do not follow the Christian faith but that cat Jesus rocked this world with his suffering, by saying he did it for us. This was half a millenium after Buddha took leave Buddha seems to be one of the most complex figures in history. Starting as a totaly protected spoiled prince, only to rebel and become an esthete and then find a middle way to both ease the tensions and keep a tight rein on the self...Its too bad he had such a spoiling start in life, it gave him a lot of fear to get over. After some deep study I just couldn't accept either world view from those two as a way for me to be me. For me I found greater truth in the Yi Jing's simple examples of how to deal with every-day life as best we can, by following the way of natural laws and cycles and needs. Fitting into the big-picture as it were...Trying to live with honesty and honor and compassion as I went about my bidness... And as my Nana taught me - not to fear life's suffering but to make the best of the situation for yourself and those you care for and those who you can also help -even if you don't really care to - because we are all in this thing together...All we can do is see our way through the surprising amounts of crap dumped on us and share the laughs we get not so long afterwards... So it ain't a picnic so what? Life IS the gift that keeps on giving -if - we share it all with humor and enough love to keep the selfish devils within us slipping-up on the rebop... Because we all know right from wrong in our hearts when we do them. And THAT consciousness we should never deny.

I've related some aspects of my experiencing these states of being on other threads...The out of body and lucid dream states took place while my body would have seemed to be unconscious. I thought I had discribed my consciousness as being concentrated in various parts of my body. Why would I make a difference between my consciousness and myself? Do you tell yourself what to think before you think it? Maybe to clarify... that which observes these aspects and retains the memory of them I concider to be the me of my consciousness. And yes where I contact the bliss of the void is indeed deep within my mind/memory/consciousness, but is not the only hyper-cosmic state of being that I am aware of. It is not my goal to end up there. I am not a big proponant of Buddhism. It ranks about the same as Christianity with me, as a system of beliefs that I would follow. I am a Taoist who has faith in science more than esoteric wishful thinking to explain my reality and the potentials of my cosciousness through practice or faith or study or just enjoying my existance...

Hi AgainTsa- I have no experience with the white skeleton first hand, but I may buy that book -thanks- Also, I didn't mean to imply that the physics was different with ants/humans only that anything alot larger would have too much mass in our gravity.It is my understanding that giant ants could not function as they do now being so small. I was trying to relate one step out of the many differences in how mass relates to force in this natural world. It was an effort to relate to what Michael had written. It is often confusing just who one is addressing on these threads- I shall try to be more clear in future... The Tibetan monks sitting in sub-freezing temperatures over night has been well documented, That is expraordinary at least. To answer yr question Tsa - I have felt extreme -but not flamable hot - heat eminating from a Master's hand when he said he "charged " his Iron Palm with Qi. He then lightly tapped the dash-board of a Mecedes-Benz just to release the qi- he said he had to hit something and we couldn't pull over- and the dash-board sort of caved in where he tapped it...And once when riding a very fractious horse he tapped its neck, the horse froze, pissed and its ears went back as his eye-balls extended and his nostrals flared - a slight slap and a very fractious stallion-(there was a release signed to ride him)- was gentled... Again low level stuff but an inkling of available powers. As far as the Super-natural wizardry we are all so curious about- I have interest in but not strong belief in these sorts of powers -a sort of agnostic as it were. I too would need better proof than I have as yet - to say it is so. The amazing potentials I have witnessed and a growing understanding of quantum theory keeps me wondering, otherwise I would be much more filled with doubt as the basis of my interest in these matters.

The Artha level has been discribed as that between Kharma and Dharma... Not related to the sensual aspects of life but the human inter-active,,, Seeking job, family, teachers, political interaction. These sorts of activities not related to staying alive per se but building a life once you sustain your body. They may be altruistic but still not tied to the Dharma as the intent is still for the interests that are not spiritual as it were. And Hi ! El T. It may be that we can't know or maybe remember these things before we die, but for me these ideas and experiences are still a function of being alive. I will not know what the result of my life will offer as a Me to go on, until I die and the process of rebirth takes place. Thw where of the me that observes all of these aspects of being seems to be where my consciousness is focused. I am not sure it has a residence that is constant. The out of body experiences I have had seem to indicate that the me of my conscious mind does not need to have a place within my body to call "home". When I return to this body after an out of body experience I seem to enter just below my solor-plexus, but I am not sure this is an accurate discription. It seems to be just out then in more than in my brain, heart or various chakras. It is said that people who lose limbs have a residual sense of the limbs being there. This is explainable due to nerves sending messages. But the mind knows the limb is gone and still allows the perception to exist as if it is real. My point is that while we are alive the body has a strong hold on our conscious minds to pay attention to it. That my consciousness has been gifted with a body makes me very happy, most of the time. When I am ill or hurt my conscious mind seems to center where there is pain. I guess that consciousness just goes where it is needed.

That is a great point! but hey there are No worries QiDr., Just an intellectual interest in other states of consciousness. I wouldn't think until applies to these matters. If my wakefulness has learned something from my consciousness when sleeping, it can only be an aid to discovering the differences. What we don't know can't help us. What we don't know can hurt us.. But thanks for the wake-up call!

Hi there everyone, I for one think that some of these powers are available to us with training. Before I started to train in Hung-Gar I could not concentrate my strength (QI?) and punch a much larger man so that he moved away from the punch at a rapid rate of speed. Nor was I able to put myself into a horse stance that enabled me to remain rooted to the ground when a very large guy tried to lift me. He could have easily lifted my weight had he wanted I was at about 170 at that time and he could usually "clean and jerk" much more than that. So there are techniques I know of that seem to be super but they are not. They are just applied physics, in that there is force concentrated from my body weight into my fist, and a pushing down of my muscle power to counter-act the lifting. The combination of my weight and muscle-power defies the size differences that would seem to defy the acts of physical prowess some see as super. These are very low-level examples of how we can train to seem to be super. That is some of my personal knowledge. I have seen the Grand Master I studied with do things far more amazing, and I for one assume his training has given him better concentration of energy/ weight/ INTENT etc. I have seen WILL-Power alone help people do and get through incredible duress as well, not magic just human will. What of the 100lb. House wife who lifted a car off of her injured child? That was documented. We are an amazing species, ants are far more amazing in their physical powers. Michael is right about the size thing on many levels. What is possible on some levels of our physical world are not at others. Even in the basic bio-sphere's diversity, the ant/human analogy shows us some of the limitations in terms of physics.

These are great points to make El T... When I lived in England '71/'72 I was into trying to concentrate on my chakra levels as I sensed my consciousness/energies flowing. It seemed to me at that time that the several chakra points were centers of their respective energies. I could not suss-out what the me noting these centers of energy was to do with them at that time, but I thought of them as sort of storage bins where my energies could be cherished - (as within the temple of my body), or be directed out from their places of storage when needed. The me noting my body's functions then seems to have remained the same being as the me now, though I believe that my body's cells from those years are gone 5 times over. I have been wondering why my sense of my "being me" seems so strong when so many posts on this thread are full of questions as to the "me-ness" of ourselves... I have saught to disolve the me of egoism through meditation, but not the consciousness I believe is me. I guess at some level I have given-up trying to not be a seperate being and tried instead to make that seperate being an integral part of the "whole" by mindfulness and compassionate efforts to open my heart (4th chakra -isn't it)? If I concentrate on higher chakras I open up those other levels of being me that seem to be more connected to outside of me...in a way it dissolves the me- like LSD can do too. I know we can transcend and give our consciousness of self -(spirit) -flight, but while alive the body will have it's way, if allowed to. By the way, I do not concider my personality to be that which I call my self. I have noticed too many variations in mood and "will" in that. As in why do I eat foods that are not good for me? Or any other "self-distructive" thing. personality is sort of a body manifestation. The more we control it with our higher consciousness the more goody-goody we will be.- the super-ego explanation as it were... I realize my consciousness sometimes lets my body's mechanisms have free rein and deside things from my lower chakra centers. They have powers that the mindful consciousness of the more "eternal self", indulges... And thus the expanded consciousness of my true being returns to being a captive of my temple's senses. The divinity within, that gets the namaste from others...Will not deny life its druthers sometimes. And if the many small joys we share while being alive build Kharma and add to our consciousness's burdons in later lives - so be it, be good to each other and trade-up as it were. And dat be my take on consciousness...

Sean, I am not enclinded toward Buddhist thinking, or belief systems. Nor Christian, nor Islamic. etc... I love being alive and active on all levels of being, Kharma, Artha, Dharma. I have no inclination to be part of a blissful void. I do not seek any such state of being. I like the rough and tumble of being alive and it holds no fear for me, nor does death. I do not hope to hang onto a higher and still higher state of being while I am alive just to approximate being dead. I remember dead. So will you if you put your mind to it. Memory is part of consciousness we carry it with us through our many lives. I am in no hurry to stay in the void no matter how blissful it is. My immortality is already solid in my sense of being. I do not fear rebirths I fear only a return to ignorance. This is a fear which I believe my conscious mind will be able to cope with when I die. We are all already immortal, we just don't all remember it. That is the waking-up. The constant is change. The constant is not Immortality. Consciousness/ awareness/mindfulness all give us clues... In death, I believe my being goes on as consciousness. I remember my connection to the Greater Consciousness as a constant. I came from there into life. Life is what it is. I put no value on ANY activity if I am being aware of its consiquences and impact and meaning in my life. Much of morality to me is just silly. I eat pork, so did Buddha, but not Mohammid, etc... That is where merit comes in - doing unto others etc... We want to come back with good lives- I can't say I remember how that works exactly but the better you are the better you get. I am of the middle way I don't want a goody-goody life of bliss, at least not now. My intent is to come back just a little wiser than I am this time. I want to keep this thing going! Being in the moment transcends death. I believe I can cope with it and keep my consciousness for another few life-times before I will try any Buddhist Void. What if there are other states of bliss? Maybe if I reincarnate on another planet I will learn of a cooler part of those dimentions of being, one where I can Jam with Jimi Hendrix and wonder why those Buddhists chose to just bliss-out for the several millenia it takes for them to realize their options...