Wayfarer64

First I accept the premis that there are levels of consciousness. It seems that most here do as well. I think we may each have needs that are discribible for each level of consciousness that we attain. A novice needs to be reminded of many more aspects of practice than one who has been "at it" a while, usually... While some of us who have been "at it" a while need to be reminded of the original letting go process, as we may have become attached to aspects of our current practice. Being human is usually enjoyed the most when we are being, (or maybe in our modern world), letting ourselves be - Natural in our comportment and thinking. If we constrict our thinking into moralistic or technical systems we may lose touch with healthyer and happier ways of going about our lives. I have the notion that many of us began our religious thinking in the western tradition. The leap of faith as it were, into the eastern modes that most relate to here, is already huge in societal terms. We could well have been one huge weenie roast a couple hundred years ago, or even in many parts of our homelands today, IF our ways of thinking and our beliefs are threatening to those around us. That does not mean we are being un-natural in our ways of life. The tolerance we grant ourselves to go beyond what we are comfortible with may be a challange. But it is a challange that we have already accepted. What system we use to grow into an expanded consciousness doesn't seem to matter much. What worked for Buddha was not Jesus' way was not Lao Tzu's was not anybody's way but their own. I am not sure that our strivings will get us anywhere until we each find our own way to be the most conscious we can be. Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself to be kind to others, if you think you need to. Or sit for ten months in a cave if that is your next step towards your attainment of the consciousness you are seeking. Many find a level of enlightenment that is not a constant, but it is a far cry from barbarism and seems to be a great step forward in the world. We can each only be mindful of where we are at and take it from there. It is our direction and intent that we are conscious of when we are awakening that seems to change. Either it becomes very clear or it is somehow gone... I for one am not sure which or if at that level it may just be the same thing. In that our intent becomes synonomus with the Way/moment/devine will-you name it... And somehow we obtain the awareness of correctness and completeness in our consciousness...With the One and All -Naturally. That is when I feel that I am happiest, and I could just be watching the snow fall to get me there.

Much of this comes down (or up) to awareness. I am aware of levels of my consciousness after meditating for a couple hours that I somehow forget as I am typing into cyber-space a few days later. Just because I had a satori of deep revelation on Monday does not mean that I can balance my consciousness to "exude" this awakening later in the week. So how can I claim that I have gained these insights IF I am unable to maintain or manifest them as a part of my behavior in the continuum? Even if I can now again, more days later remember those revelations and can claim to have held onto them somewhere in my consciouness. The levels of my awareness and ability to manifest my awareness changes. Sometimes I work to make my practice such that I will hold that higher state always. Other times I am so thankful for another state of being and the awareness of that being that there is no way I want to give up the chance of returning to that other seperate state of being and awareness!?! The notion of time is important here. The concept of the eternal past/now/future. Also has a few differing concepts to deal with from quantum to cyclicle to linear etc... We tend to want to repeat "good" experiences. When much of one's time is spent in meditation, then it is natural to seek those levels that "please" us the most. So how do we not become attached to these levels and keep transcending? We all seem to know that these levels of consciouness exist for us, or at the least many of us believe we are able to reach higher levels of consciouness through our practices. Most believe in the potentials within ourselves to become manifest. It seems there are different goals and different perceptions and even different interpretations of these perceptions. There are many distinct differences between Taoism and Buddhism as well as amongst the many sects of these and other systems of belief. There may be a goal of being in The Way (not like a big dog in the hall)- that refutes the "void" of Buddhism. I am not sure that the states of being that seem the same can be the same if the intent, direction, and goals are different for the various beings who have attained these levels. And still within the Tao all that exists for us to ponder...IS...At least in our minds and cyberspace!

Once again Denty you are obfuscating or just not being honest. I have never expressed any disbelief in enlightened teachers nor immortal beings. I do not believe that YOU have a grasp of these concepts, much less a better grasp than others. Again you just don't get it. You will remain on my ignore list, as you are on those of several others here who know that YOU are not for real. You are obviously not here to discuss Taoism. You are here to disrupt any civil discussion of Philosophic content with your insistant BS. I offer you no inherent respect beyond the Namaste I offer everyone. Now once again I ask you to add me to your ignore list as well. I do not have time for any more childish BS. I again apologize to all on this site for my involvment in this. Lozen, (hot as she may be), seems to have lost The Way with this thing... I shall return to my path and try to ignore the back-ground noise of attention deprived children as I am able. Namaste- Wayfarer

Tsa, I offer an apology to you for my part in bringing this silly distraction here. I should not let my amusements interupt any serious discourse. Again your presence here is much needed.- Pat

Denty, as this seems to have been written before your capitulation I will let it go.-for the most part. But rest assured no heated emotions were ever raised on my part much less hate. This has always been about philosophy for me not personality. The dispute of yr supposed superior grasp of Taoist thought - than anyone else's here, has a long and very funny history. It started long before I got here. I assume it will last as long as your mind-set does. Tsa- Just to catch you up- I do not believe he understands what he thinks he knows. He has yet to show me anything I can believe. My mind is open to all here, but Denty has failed to communicate civily or well much of the time. That he presumes to speak for everybody here belies the fact that I have received some few emails thanking me for taking him down a few pegs. And yes more than a few have him in the ignore user list. there has been a public effort to try the "Pax Lozen" for a while. (The rift between Denty and myself has gotten heated and public at times). Rest assured every time I see BS I shall call it BS. Past present and future... But there will be little if any emotion to this stuff, for me. I've only been using the internet for a couple of years and still do not concider it as "real" as the great wide world where my life takes place...

I hate beimg late for these things, last I heard everyone is coming and I'm not even breathing hard yet...Timing is everything.

Just my luck I go do some work and miss an orgy!- I love this site and every letter of every word miss-spelled or not has the transcendant potential of the Tao within it! So lettin' it be is good with me, always was always will be... And if ya think that was raunchy you should hear the diss-offs musicians have to clear the air'...' hell we GOTTA work together and being thrown together on the road or just a steady series of gigs makes for some pretty up-tight scenes! I admit we usually kept it to - yr momma is so fat- sort of stuff...so I do appologize for any buttons being pushed too hard in the last few rounds -I realy did mean to be funny. I once made the mistake of telling Buddy Miles he was getting too fat- (he weighed about 370 at the time!) I was helping him get from stage to back-room... He tripped me up and sent me into customers-I had to take a prat-fall not to plow into the tables... it was all in fun, but that too almost got out of hand... See y'all in cyber-space... I just caught up- lets say a spelling contest... I will cast a spell on Denty to become less mean if he can cast a spell on me to be less critical of him when he is still mean- that way we find the mean (Middle way) between our differences and really mean it. Isn't that how its meant to be?

Tsa I for one thank you for this thread. More thought along these lines is needed in all these issues. Faith is real for many, encluding myself, each to various degrees no doubt. But that use of "no doubt" should not be used to discribe many of our levels of having faith in reason or reasons to hold faith. For many we have varying degrees of doubt, and science is needed to help us keep faith in both our reasoning and our beliefs. This is a bit convoluted perhaps but in essence it means being reasonable may be enough for some but not others. Scientific proofs go beyond reason into what is the actual nature of our "reality" or maybe the reality of nature may be a more apt way to put this. Basic Quantum 101 seems to back the idea of reality as idea, so the door to these powers seems at least to open into the possible already. My own qigong practices have shown me things that I would have found unreasonable before. I do not doubt some of the phenomina discribed here just because those who claim knowledge of it are just not credible. Others have discribed phenomina that I have doubts about -but they have the credibility. It may be a matter of time and funding. I bet a college course is already available to address some of these issues. Lets try an experiment: Everyone on TAOBums pray for me to win the lottery. When I win I will fund a university study to investigate many such para-normal phenomina. With my having won said lottery, as tacit proof that the study should be taken up!

OK Denty, lets rehash- My very first entry directed to you was a reply to your statement that Buddhism was a philisophicaly sectless entity- I replied with a list of sects . You came back with a personal attack on my level of knowledge not being able to understand what you were saying, not that you could somehow meld those sects into a philisophical wholeness. Time and time again you just attack the people who doubt anything you have to say without any cumpunction as to their feelings and a total disregard for the topics being addressed. I do consider those who behave the way that you do to be bad people, no matter what they proffess to know and hold as their own as the tenets they live by. Your entries should not go unanswered. You are full of shit. You claim Buddhism is based on compassion and display none yourself. And it has been both fun and funny for me because dispite your feeling pursicuted by me for answering your false piety with doubt I am not attacking you nor paying attention to you unless called upon to do so by my beliefs. You are still and will remain in the ignore list as you are on this function with others here who do not want to read your BS. I am usually proud of the enemies I make, you don't even rate that, being a petty and narrow-minded know-it-all...There is no real emotion, just a strong defensive reaction to your MO & BS. Lozen- thanks for the effort, it almost worked 'til it got serious again somehow... I really was just trying to have fun and use sex as the theme of those sexy contest entries. I seldom take anything on the web as seriously as those who have much of there lives here. So sorry for having too much fun- One of my earliest entries here warned that I do NOT take this to be as serious as many here may... But I will continue to challange Denty as I see fit in the defence of what I hold sacred. I am not a Christian nor a Buddhist though I find some truth in each faith. I am a proponant of Taoism because it holds up to scientific analysis - as far as the Yi Jing goes... Denty's shilling of super-powers has nothing to do with searching for the devinity within and being allowed to manifest it as power if/when you are ready. All I have seen him manifest is ill will and hurt felings from those who doubt him. I tried to ignore him and he kept meantioning me by name. When I come back with an amusing campaign to cast more doubt on him and his motives he claims I am obsesive about him. My answer is simple- I tried to ignore you and you claimed I could not "take it like a pro" and that is why I went away. I took that as a challange, now you want it to seem as if I am over-reacting. As if the sexy-off was somehow real?! If ignoring him didn't work and attacking him didn't work and this very humorous thread doesn't work, it just may be that he will never have the inner resources needed to be introspective in a constructive way. Too bad he shows some potential.

Hey here's an idea... I hear Denty is coming to the NYC area soon, How many here want me to make him my bitch, and teach him what power/sexy can be? I'll even throw in an object lesson in manners -as in: please sir can I have some more... If he acts the way he writes around here, while in NYC I'll have to get on line. He will have his ass handed to him several times before I could find the time to look him up... What cha say big mouth? Wanna be my beotch? Or is our little contest over already? Mean? Sexy? Denty, or should I say Boy - you got no more mean than a hungry flea and no more sexy than a dead worm... I haven't said uncle big-mouth (or is that big-typing hand)... And you ain't brought it yet... or are you going to hide behind your false piety once again? I like silly contests for fun and know that I for one had a great time giving you fodder to attack me as I attack you, but I still will never take a jack-ass like you seriously and will continue to call you on yr BS. But As fun as this has been I have stuff to do that is more important than helping Denty imagine what he says carries any weight. If you got more BS spill it -I'll get back to you later...

Talk about insipid! sexy from you would be the yawn-fest of lawn-parties... My mom used to joke about how I have more gay friends than my sister who is gay. So ccome on don't pick on my not knowing where your dippy sort of sexy eminates from show me sexy- not I know you are so what am I school-yard rehash of PC drivel. Sexy IS power dude you just talk the goo goo ga ga of power but have only shown a distinct lack of real equiptment to deal out any real power, much less the ability to make what ya got seem sexy- This poll is about your marked quality being mean not sexy, unless the sexually active out there are looking for kinky ( as in masochism) you ain;t brought it yet... ' Chnaging the subject yourself from mean to sexy does not make this about your being sexy it is about you being mean, so far I've seen mean in very petty ways from you only you have claimed that to be sexy. So show me some power not a geography lesson on where to find insipid ego strokers.

Denty, You sir resemble he who is Without a clue. A poor faxilily of the dweeb who tries his mojo out and seems more the fool than ever. You ain't bad you just think you is. Ever fight for real -for your very life? I doubt it. Of the 35 nations and 45 states I've visited the most insipid limp-wristed nerdy specs od ex-flatulence were in the LA area of California. Hell I bet one of them dykes on bikes in SF could show you how to be more of a man than anything your little mind has yet imagined- Want some more? Bring it. edit-what the hell is a zoolander whatever -more nerdy LA twaddle - we of Haute Culture (hear it in French) just don't get you Californians and yr pop references-

Mr. Denty, Like we say in da Apple dude, (as in BIG Apple)- fugedaboutit! you will NEVER best me at sexy! I think I can find those old love letters somewhere for proof! -the notched bed-post was wittled down to a mere tooth-pick, so it lost all meaning-(which is the GOOD kind of mean) I guess this is our Pax Lozen -'til the next round...Namaste- Pat (so Lozen at least for me you have been a peace-maker and blessed unto the lordy-lord lord with this thing-just please don't run one on me! I am too old for a critique) PS-I'll try to catch yr act Sean D. when yr in the area- just don't try to sell me any snake-oil, I got my own brand.

Few can hide their inner-nature. I for one am entirely mean-spirited when it comes to confronting my enemies of conscience. I have been a fierce proponant of force since I was 14 or so. But showing how hurtful you can be just for the hell of it is not healthy or productive. Denty seems to try very hard to hurt people's feelings to no purpose, other than his need to prove himself in some way. I for one try to use empathy and self-critisism as a first resort to confrontation, attack only comes after someone has proven themselves to be my foe on serious levels of interaction. Be it in the realms of Kharma, Artha or Dharma - sometimes we do not know how to behave without lashing-out in immature and distructive ways. I for one will try to keep my compassion up and antagonism low. It ain't easy with some folks, but I've never seen a "school-yard bully" type that didn't crumble into their own humanity if given a helpful nudge. I've said enough against Denty's behavior to recuse myself from this poll.

Yet one more misconception We had no "happy movement" in the 60's, that I can remember, but you know what some say about the 60's if you can remember it you weren't there, they must be the "happy movement" refered to... For most, it was a time of great social upheaval when the static forces of racial , sexual and economic oppression were taken out to the streets, where we subjected each-other to a trade-off of body-blows that had the world reeling and indeed changed the world through both non-violent and violent action. Many of us publicly dared the US army to draft us, teach us killing skills and see what would happen...Few were sheepish about their convictions in those days. The non-violence of many was admired by all in what was known as "The Movement"...But most were too realistic to expect the narrow-minded forces of the status quo to quit without a fight. We busted a move indeed and changed the world a bit for the better. We ended that f-ing war through fighting the police in the streets and letting the war-mongers know we would fight but not FOR them. My draft # was 1 (out of 365) in 1972. The SSS ended the draft ten days before what would have been my military induction date. They knew guys my age were going to mess them up from the inside out.

Thank you I shall try to get there. And shall phone or email in any case as soon as I know I can get into the city. I look forward to meeting with you soon. -Pat G.

Tsa, I agree with you, We need science in any reasonable discussion of such abilities... But delving into practice and reading may be enough to start you seeing the potentials you have yourself, have you done much meditation or qi-gong to get a feel for it? I was not asking the shill thing for the Randi connection. The candy-apple comment was just to indicate that I have a total distrust of much of what some folks here claim as their own to sell. Your WOW etc... line that you wrote- gave me the feeling that you were faking this whole questioning thing to promote that site...That is how deep my distrust of this direction goes. It sounded like you were hyping the site. Avoid the comoditization of the Tao as some sort of make it yourself power-drink,selling one's sacred connection to the cosmic source of basic forces such as creativity and receptivity is a travesty, if not the original devel's bargain. Many of us have been asking for proofs and intention from those who are claiming these abilities. Still, I don't doubt the essence of many of these claims, just the degree to which the claimants have professed knowledge while exhibiting little understanding of what I believe to be the needed components of humility and compassion to grow into such power.. There is proof to my mind that many of these things are real, and may be developed to astounding degrees. So I remain , shall we say - optomistic that many of these astounding feats may be proved and attainable by scientific method as well as emperical experience. Having trained and worked on myself I have little doubt as to the potentials. There are quite a few threads and entries of experiences here, maybe not done under scientific conditions but real to the senses of those who witnessed them. You are quite wise, in these days of religious extremism to doubt any claims of superiority of belief system from anyone. Such hubris is a blight on all men's search for contact with devine energies, as many of us work and pray/meditate for enlightenment.

Tsa, You seem to be such a sincere young man who has boldly made a very natural-seeming flow towards Mr. Denty's Candy-apple stand. The very notion of you being a schill for him/his master seems outragious on the face of it, but some here do not trust him, nor what he claims. This will always be the case, there are differing ideas as to truth and wisdom and the value of what uses we put our energies to. There are far more down to earth reasons to learn about the Tao than the self-serving power-mongering of alchemy and the striving for one particular (mis?)conception of immortality. There is a dark side, as it were, to Taoism. You have found it quite quickly. If these men have such powers why are they not serving their fellow beings as any self-respecting saintlike being would? Why do they covet these blessings and sell them as great promise of personal power as they inslave their followers? If you seek power for its own sake -stay with that bunch, but be prepared to pay with the very essence of your being, they will suck the life out of you promising immortality. You would be better served to consult the I Ching before you procede with the path you seem to have so breath-takingly stumbled onto.- If you are not a shill -than, just be mindful where-ever you go, there are many paths and most are not what you expect them to be. I for one shall continue to express my disbelief, and total distrust, not of the content of Denty's claims but of the honesty of his intent to do good with what he knows. Look inside of your own heart FIRST for the right and wrong of any act or choice. Concider what is important to you. There is more than one path to immortality. Those who seek power over other's spirit will deprive you of yours to maintain their own.

I Have just received this notice from Common Cause. Does anyone here use My Space? If so what are you going to do about their conduct? MySpace has censored our ad about the dangers of media consolidation. Common Cause members have already sent tens of thousands of messages to the FCC - but in this final week before the deadline, we wanted to advertise on high-traffic websites to recruit new activists. Outrageously, MySpace told us that they "won't allow that to be shown." (The ad we submitted is below.) Maybe MySpace doesn't want the word getting out about proposed changes to the ownership rules because they themselves are owned by a media conglomerate. In 2005, MySpace was gobbled up by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., which also owns Fox. Their refusal proves our point: Big Media has too much control over what the public hears, sees and watches -- and we need to let the FCC know it. While MySpace's decision is disappointing, there is still time to tell the FCC 'no more media consolidation' . But we need to move fast, and we need your input. 1. Go to CommonBlog and vote for the sites where you think we should place our ad. Time is short; we need to get this together in the next 24 hours. 2. If you are a MySpace user, put our ad up on your own Myspace page, or on any other website or blog you are active with. 3. Make a financial contribution. The more money we raise, the more outreach we can conduct. We need to show the FCC how important this issue is to the public. Thank you for everything you do. Sincerely, The Common Cause Media Reform Team Lauren Coletta, Dawn Iype, Jon Bartholomew and Celia Wexler

Denty, Now you wish to dictate my behavior?! I have not accused you of being a charlatan for what you claim I have raised issues of doubt concerning your abilities to understand what you claim because of the way you have addressed anyone and everyone who questions what you claim to know in any way. This always indicates a lack of understanding. How could either of us threaten each-other? I do not care so very much what anyone says on the web-(within reason) but I do care how people treat each-other in any cercumstance.You attack with no semblance of reasonable restraint or humility at every instance of doubt, rather than looking within yourself for why these issues come up. It is the very antithisis of Taoist practice to behave with such hubris. I consulted the Yi Jing concerning this issue, and was given Kuan/Contemplation (no changing lines) I quote in part...From Wilhelm/Baynes- Contemplation of the devine meaning underlining the workings of the universe gives a man who is called upon to influence others the means of producing like effects. This requires that power of inner concentration which religious contemplation develops in great men strong in faith. It enables them to apprehend the mysterious and devine laws of life, and by means of profoundest inner concentration they give expression to these laws in their own persons. Thus a hidden spiritual power emanates from them, influencing and dominating others without their being aware of how it happens... This seems to be very pertanent to this thread.And our various takes on inner powers... I do not get a positive vibe from you, and have made that clear. I do not believe your prayers would be of any benifit to me. Even if they were well meant. I grant you no authority in these matters and claim none for myself. We are here to share and compare, if you have an agenda that doubt undermines, then get rid of your own doubts first, any others' doubts will be as water off a duck's ass...

Mr.Denty, Much of what you have entered on this thread is interesting and sounds as if there is a possibility that you grasp some of the concepts well enough to live by them. But it could also be construed by some as empty rhetoric when taken along-side much of what you write... And sir, (oh if only "kind" could be applied)- Why would you assume just because you start a thread that everything written in it is directed towards you. This is still a free space for us all to write our ideas concerning our practices. You have taken personally many things from many people that were not directed at you, and turned them into personal attacks. You continualy misconceive of ideas, and the meaning of words from the simple such as ignore to the more complex such as the difference between knowledge and understanding, even the realization of compassion seems beyond you. If the ground rules of the ignore function also enclude not participating in threads each-other start then I disagree. I for one have had the self-control (up to this entry)- not to have addressed anything towards you, encluding the entry you seem to take exception to! If you take my entries to be addressed towards you than they are merely a shoe that fits...Not an intended nod in your general direction. Again my complaint towards you has always been that you are too self-possessed within your own ideas, (narrow-minded)- to be taken seriously as an adherant of many things and concepts you espouse as your own. I do not care about the rudeness per se, that is only a surface element indicating a lack of character in anyone, you are but a fine example. I kept my comments general on this thread, as I always try to do, and felt in fact they supported your possition, but if you feel that they apply to you in the negative, that is pretty interesting. I have however, come across several comments of yours directed at me by name, even after you wrote that you too would ignore me, I guess that is just one more concept you are unable to grasp. It is too bad that when I log on as a guest my ignore option does not work. The pychological defence mechanism know as mirroring seems to be strong in you youngman, it is not a healthy trait. It precludes looking within for the troubles one makes for oneself and seeks to blame others for their very inception. This is the opposite of what an adherent of Taoism would do. So, finally it has become clear to me that you are here to refute Taoism. I hope this satisfies your craving for negative attention. I shall go back to ignoring you as well as the sight allows.

Michael, it seems to vary some, one friend and I often each/both remembered and later spoke of sharing dreams ( as when sleeping) sometimes one of us didn't remember, but then tried to. That seldom worked. It seems memory is the variable, and memory of sub-conscious or alternative conscious states of being and there related events are much harder to remember, some of the time. What is striking is how some of these dreams we have been describing are so very real in memory! And so very telling in real time applications and resulting states of being in "reality" ala what both twotrees and Taomeow have related earlier... Again my interest in Quantum theory comes to mind as how "idea" may manifest into "being" all the time... Where is Cloud Recluse? Even when some may disparage dreaming - the dreamers delight in and learn to understand something beyond "knowing" when grasping a dream's potential and direction...Martin Luther King may have been onto something more than a catch-phrase!

The active search for and sharing of esoteric knowledge has been going on for many mellenia, my own only since 1968. I hope that most of the young and cock-sure seekers here, don't fade away or burn-out in the decades to come. I have seen it happen to very strong and able practitioners. Their consciousness did not grow with their intake. There is always more to understand than we will ever know. And knowing is not understanding. Knowledge is of no use if the holder of it can not or will not apply the concepts into their reality/dream state and work to make for a better understanding, not a mere accumulation of powerful ideas and states of mind, that bring them self-satisfaction, but do not change how they live and accumulate merit and kharma. When yr kharma hits yr dogma in the here and now ( or in the great beyond), it is what you have done and how you treat yr fellow beings- when you had the chance, that has any register in cosmic value structures. Kharma does not preclude the smack to the head of master to doltish students... Often enough the sillier applications of Qi turn back to simple wind as if blown out of one's ass... And thus, in the hands of the very vapid and selfish, It just raisies a stink, while a true master will heal and cure and develope strengths in others, some will use these abilities as a con-man sells his snake-oil, to get-over on suckers and fools. It takes all kinds, so caviat emptor, take note of attitude and the dynamics of applications when judging those who would seek followers, not mere knowledge and ability.