Wayfarer64

Thank you each and all for your thoughtful considerations. It seems there is a unity of purpose found in any number of approaches, and a mindful application of this variety offers us each options that may transcend the paradox tendered here... Everything in its own time and way. Such an open-minded acceptence of both doing and not doing as viable paths; also bridges the gap that I noticed and seems to free us for (and from) the utilization of those various techniques at any given space/time coordinate, at least it seems to for those answering these questions. The steps and timing may be critical in minimizing wasted energy and time, but it would seem many paths lead to our better selves.

Roger that Houston. I have a long-time interest in NASA's projects. Do you have any connection to the space program? In any case - welcome aboard. I've not been here long, but its a very fine forum.- Namaste-Pat

I've come across some quotes that may add several new perspectives to this thread... Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart ... Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside awakens." -unknown author "We practise illusory practise in an illusory way, in order to reach illusory enlightenment and deliver illusory beings from suffering.". --From - Khyungpo Naljyor, Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition "Our imagination flies; we are its shadow on the earth." - Vladimir Nabokov "You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain "The world is but a canvas to the imagination.".. - Henry David Thoreau "We completely deny the existence of a self-existent I, or a permanent, independent soul. Every aspect of your body and mind is impermanent: changing, changing, changing... " - Lama Thubten Yeshe "It's not just philosophy, not just words; it's knowing how the mind functions; only then can you develop loving-kindness; only then can you become a spiritual person" - Lama Thubten Yeshe "When we speak of mind, we speak of something that is not a thing in itself. In its most fundamental sense, mind is not something we can limit. We cannot say it has a particular shape, size or location, color or form, or any other limiting characteristic.".. - Kalu Rinpoche "Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it." -unknown author "The nature of mind is like empty space, like the sky, which at present is filled with clouds and fog and mist and periodically has all kinds of activity such as hailstorms, snowstorms, rainstorms and thunder and lightning." - Kalu Rinpoche "We are not Human Beings seeking a Spiritual Experience... We are Spiritual Beings involved in a Human Experience.".+ - author unknown "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves." - The Buddha "If you seek to understand the whole universe you will understand nothing at all but seek to understand yourself and you will understand the whole universe." - Druidic Axiom "If you tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe, he'll believe you. But if you tell him a parkbench has just been painted, he has to touch it to be sure." - Lynn I hope ya'all enjoyed them...

A dear friend of mine (Mike Savage) - who was also a great painter would have loved this thread. Alas he died of an exploding pancreas in'98... For years he worked on a very aetherial abstract water color painting. Over those several years it went through dozens of changes - many incredible and wonderous and every so often there would be a nearly blank piece of paper, with faint pastel hues and scratches and worn spots that became holes. After a couple years there were pretty big holes in the paper. It made me crazy because so many of the stages were just beautiful and he could have begun a new piece of paper. Eventually he burned the paper and put the ashes in a jar for his girl friend at the time to have. I always wished he had given them to me; as I had known the life of that paper better than anyone else but him. That once blank piece of paper had a real life for me. and ended up as ashes just as my mom and my dog did, and I shall also. Many of the forms it took on really were very wonderous. Granted - he tended to show me the great stages, and not those that caused the radical erasures...But the symbolism of that painting's many incarnations seems an apt metaphore for what we are into here. Mike was Man Ray's great-nephew and thought of himself as a DADAist -tho his mom said there were no modern DADAists...I always thought of that painting as an abstraction of a concept and then a nearly formless representation (ashes) of what had been a manifestation of so many visions over the years. From tree to pulp to blank paper to a spring -board for artistic wonderment - to ashes... The last incarnation had the most content but was the most formless.

I bet a stoned duck swims in circles...or heads to the snack bar for some quackers...

Thanks Darin, Sorry for any confussion-I just edited my 1st entry after I read yr Avatar info-Pat

Dear Darin, Altruism is a great tool that benefits both giver and receiver. Do you want this temple to be in Detroit? How far afield are you willing to go? Would you maybe broaden your horizons and spread the wealth far and wide? It may be for you to create a place for Taoists to gather. Something easy and small at first like asking yr local library to lend a room once or twice a month and get the word out from there...Put up a flyer at a book store where Taoists books are sold etc...If you have the time for these things then those who are interested will show up... Otherwise I should think actual existing places with any religious affiliation are registered for tax breaks and can be found, in any number of ways - even the yellow pages! But I would be more circumspect with the money offer! Don't lead with an offer of money or everyone will say thy are needy Taoists! Even me! ... Because- Hey, You can always buy a copy of my book of sonnets relating to the Yi Jing! & I promise to always be a nudge for Taoism as long as I live! @ - http://www.lulu.com/pdgart Thanks & I hope you find what yr looking for in Detroit! - Wayfarer (PDG)

Hi ya'all, My take on the question is closest to Cameron's wherein the essence of Taoist study is in the awareness of (Yi) not the manifestation of (Qi) the interactive web of all things known, imagined and unimaginable, ( that are ultimitly encluded into The One that "represents" the ever-changing untouchable Tao). As I've written elsewhere- that content (Yi) and form (Qi) are utilized in a context (Tao)... This while being interactive with the rest of the forms found in the context. How we manifest the content and then the form becomes our sphere of activity. We deside our Way of doing and being. This is where "right action" and the developement of our characters and personalities gets changed, (or not). We either build awareness and the power to transform ourselves using that awareness or not... So for me Qi is empty without Yi and the mastery of Qi without Yi would have a very harmful and negative energy to it. So to get back to the start of this thread - I guess I'd say that Qi is crap without Yi...And the Tao is beyond its components. I have noticed many parts of this existence that seemed to be quite lacking in Qi yet & still blithely part of the Tao.

Hi Sean & all- As an artist I am often involved with the task of creating form from content. Or trying to express abstract ideas in impressionistic/expressionistic ways. So I see no formlessness in many of the instances given. I see content as taking on form. I think of the world as working from the inside out. As in we are spirits existing in human form, & our activities give our lives form and function too. But it is the content of our inner beings that goes on and on as energy and consciousness in many forms, as we change over time. Those who knew me as a child would have a hard time recognizing me as an adult with no visual references in between. But the content of my personality -or that which dies -is the same person. The form has little resemblance to its own past forms for anyone not observant of the changes. If these ideas are the content, these words are the form they take and the transference of them to your eyes is the function that I am giving them through my intention. Right intention makes right action and gives form to the content. Function is the use of form to manifest content. When the air inside a vase is replaced with water and plant life its' function is realized. I see the air in a vase as having the exact form of the inside of the vase. Every nook in there adds to and every bump takes from the volume of air in the vase. It is an eddy in the mass of air surrounding the globe and trapped in plants and fish lungs and the fuel used to send rockets into space. And as breath is said to be qi , I wonder if that is the dharma level content of air and air is the form qi takes. Its functions are an ever changing array of exchanges. Thanks for the chance to think about this stuff- Namaste- Pat

Thanks Lozen-that's one of my favorites too-by Napoleon Bonaparte.

Dear freeform, I consider myself a Marxist. As in Groucho. Which makes me a confrontational joker. This is only to say some of us are confrontational or jokers without being those things on a regular basis. Namaste

I have been confused and annoyed by several elements of this thread. It may be that the crap reference just started this thing in the wrong direction, it put me off at first. Sort of like saying Buddhism is crap without contemplation. Some things are a given and need no explanation, others we will argue ad nauseum... Mr. Shaw, Sir- you seem to have jumped into this swarm of Bums with assumptions that may not be based in reality. I would never question your sincerity as a teacher but please do not assume you have more to add to this forum than anyone else in terms of experience or knowledge. Please, get aquainted first. I have not been here very long, but the general level of knowledge and experience is pretty wonderous. I assume that practicing Taoism asks us to be good listeners before we can assume positions of authority. Hubris is often a mistaken self identification when the nature of what we are trying to explain should humble us. So I would say that entering a forum with such challenging words is a questionable enterprise...I do not mean this as an admonishment - I hope these comments are not taken as stones meant to be ducked! we each have our own ways to be in the Tao. that being said- Some of the quandry here is explained by our problems with spelling Chinese words in English and using words that have several meanings to express just one part of the Big Picture... It would seem that we are on yet another roller-coaster here.-Good luck with this one fellas... Namaste

Thanks Thaddeaus et al, Your explanations helped this subject along on a meaningful level. It also satrengthens my resolve to find a teacher who has a more holistic approach to the martial arts. Understanding the machanics of movement is a huge help in the whys and wherefores of training. Subjective experience is applied most usefully within an objective understanding of its larger context and potential impact.

One of the very first meaningful experiences I had when I started Hung Gar was learning to get "rooted" to the earth and maintain a sort of bond with the ground by pressing down with my muscular strength to some degree. But also sort of mentaly directing my energy (as mass) downward... A large friend of mine said he bet he could budge me - in fact lift me... I got into my horse stance and he tried to lift me up by my elbows, my under-arms and my waist, pound for pound he should have been able to lift my weight pretty easily, yet he couldn't do it. This was an early flash of what could be developed through directing my energy through the entire mass of my body. Once I learned to direct it into a punch I got pretty excited about internal energy and I always thought of it as an E= MC2 sort of deal. But of course, my punches never approached the speed of light! The relaxing bit has some use maybe, looking tired helps the ploy work. I am always amazed when it works! Who gives up io the middle of a fight? I don't think I would ever try it in a true life/death situation, I just can't believe it works under that kind of hyper-real adrenaline-stoked moment. Pure ruthless agility is the best bet for me... If confronted with real life evil SOBs that would use any weakness as an excuse to get you in their power, there can be no relaxation. Such a vacuum will just get filled with their attacking with more gusto. A real display of power and violence works against such miscreants, for they are usually cowards at the core. My inner fortitude comes from adherance to doing what I know to be right. The inner power gained in surity of purpose is emmense. It offers an inner tranquility. The relaxation of absorbing oncomming force is part of the same thing. I guess thats what Tai chi is all about, and why I want to start learning more about it. As was mentioned elsewhere seeking power over others is at heart an act of a cowardice. Why would anyone need to control someone else unless they were scared of them? So maybe relaxing your opponent by relaxing yourself could work on the less beligerant foe, if they were not viscious by nature. It could serve to defuse the situation out of violence - maybe... My Kung Fu master suggested to us that if confronted with senseless violence, don't fight, just get away from it. But I'll bet that's advise he did not follow himself.

This is a great thread to ponder. I appreciate the delemma here. I will try a look at this from three levels: Kharma, Artha and Dharma. On the Kharmic level of everyday life, I've seen a lot of dishonesty amongst people. I find the best policy is to remain mute on many subjects that do not truly concern me. If pressed, I will form my answer as only my oppinion and stay very close to the truth of that as I can. If it is something I have thought little about , that in itself may hurt others feelings; if it is of deep concern to them and they expect me to have been involved in the topic! What to wear has been such a topic for me with girlfriends and friends. I am expected to be "up on" such matters as a New Yorker in the art/music scenes...But in fact I have little interest in fashion. I find it vain and vapid. As I do the manic interest in sports from grown men, who know more about their local teams then their local politicians. My oppinions on these matters offends many people. So I stay "up on" both topics just enough to appear involved. This is not strictly honest, as I am covering up a lack of concern with feigned concern. But it is truly harmless, and saves me from seeming too excentric. I may also qualify my answers with the possibility that my oppinion may change if given more data. "At this time" is a phrase which saves feelings from being hurt. The option of having opinions changed gives heart. In important matters that concern me I tell the absolute truth as well as I can express it, allowing for a difference of opinion. But I generally stick to my guns as it were. As an artist and art dealer I am often asked to give my opinions on matters of taste and form. I remind those asking how subjective a response will be. I then try to frame my answer in terms of content and historical perspective if I do not "like" the object or position being discussed. This not to obfuscate, but to put the question into a context that is not personal. Otherwise I am enthusiastic and open. On the Artha level -politics and biz and other "real world" concerns, I am forthright as the day is long. I am a political activist and fight power with truth. I need to be as close to truthful as I know what that truth to be. I Know not all truth can be known or even understood when known, but in expressing myself - I tell it just as I see it. In my business practices, I also try to offer the best deal possible to people I am selling to, while realizing profits must be made by those I buy from. In the Dharma there is only truth. Things are clear and all is right with the world. When I am aware and in the moment I can hear the ring of truth from the hollow thud of lies. With my own introspection there can only be the search for truth. Any obfuscation is counter-productive and harmful to my deeper sense of being an evolving kinda guy... I've been smitten with the word -truthiness - recently coined by Stephen Colbert, concening political speech. It would seem that such quasi-truth is what we get much of the time... Namaste

So Sorry GT! It surely hit a comic note in us! I for one do not believe that enlightened Taoist or any spiritual masters are retaining energy as much as delivering it outward to those around them. There are some practicioners who may try to hold onto as much Qi as they can, but I for one think this an unwise approach to mastering the Qi as a tool for development. I think Qi naturally tends to be on the move and not stagnate, so it becomes the master's duty to transform this energy into useful purpose. The practices you mention I have heard of, but they are not actually familiar to me in my experience. I've seen pics of a guy pulling a truck with his testicles! I thought at the time, that it had nothing to do with what I want to learn and practice. Also a million dollars seems pretty cheap for a resort, what do they put the guests up in grass huts? (I guess I am still getting a silliness vibe from this thread!)-So I'll bid ya adios...

Freeform- I don't think yr getting the slave thing! There would of course be house and field robot/slaves, but why would you let a robot use your water? I see a cleansing shower-spray-n-wipe of oily chemicals to be a far better final sollution. And wouldn't you program yr own musical juke-box into yr robots? Disney's "Whistle while You Work" for the field robots and maybe some Wagner for the house robots... A Germanic robot with free-will seems a likely candidate for mayhem. And Scotish/Welsh/Irish robots would just be asking for troubles aplenty. You'd need an army of military robots just to keep them in line. And then someone annoying like Jar Jar Binks would come along to screw that up for ya anyway! I would have thought having slaves would make life easier, not more complicated. So- Back to work it is!

Hi Again Michael et al... I see our boxed-in changes more as a spiral than a tick-tocking pendulum. I'd like to note that a pendulum does a sort of infinity figure as it moves that also shifts its end points in a 360 degree circle over a day's time, -as shown by the pendulum at the Franklin Institute in Philly...A figure-eighting spiral not just back-n-forth...So for me what appears to be a left to right movement is actually more complex and involved with greater forces than its own left-right impetus. There is a sense of moving foreward in this space/time continuum, for me at least.... The politics of America does seem to swing from left to right with dynastic power bases on either end. I find it telling that the two families mentioned have been the best known for rigging Presidential elections for their respective parties. The Daley bunch in the 1960 Kennedy "win" and the Bush clan in the 2000 Bush "win". Jefferson suggested America could use a new "revolution" every so often. (I think it was 40 years) I wonder if that applies to all man-made political constructs. I have little fear of a global governmental system on the face of it. I would like to see the UN become a stronger force and a force for progress. I see our global political spiral as widening and becoming ever more global year by year. That seems to be the trend. Depending on its' nature, it could be a good thing, still - I maintain a theory of constant change is viable. There is no outcome to it. There is no stasis. There is just more change, even if it seems to just swing back and forth! The Bahais have a "corporate" view of governence that scares the bejesus out of me, as the corporatization of the western world has not been a good thing in my view. This seems to be because the nature of corporations is to feed off of their "supporters" and then offering as little in return as possible so as to maximize their own power. -Like inhaling qi but never using it for the common good as it were... So I have hopes for the Bahai to address the "backward" elements of Islam and help create a "progressive" mind-set into that troublesome realm's current struggle for theocratic absolutism. I guess that would be the swing back to the left in our analogy... Beyond that I hope for an even more open and tolerant structure, that is less corporate in nature and much more socialistic. Naziism/fascism is the closest thing to corporate rule that the world has yet known -it was not a good thing in most people's view in Germany, and the current model in America has many people very upset. Many of us equate corporatism to fascism, as did W. Churchill, Juan Peron, and Musselini, as has been noted by Robert Kennedy Jr. In many recent speaches about environmental degradation due to corporate greed... I for one hope the pendulum will turn back to the left again very soon, before the extremism of this rightward momentum gets even more dangerous for those who remain outside of the powerful corporate interests' sphere of cronies and "little Eichmans" now in power. That the nature of evil is often tinged with irony and humor should not be lost on us. When evil manifests as suicide bombers creating fear in those forcing the world into a largely unwanted paradigm that only strengthened the paradigm they sought to undermine. They cleared the way for a further swing to the right. Some believe that The Saudis and Cheney/Rove planned all that and there is no irony - only more insidious power-grabbing by the Exxon/Haliburton/Carlyle Group/ Saudi/Bush/etc. power base. In short the Military Industrial Complex... I wouldn't put it past them, but find it hard to believe on many levels. So the corporate nature of the Baha'i structure puts me off. I realize it is an easy way to run an organization but it lacks socialism's more natural impetus for change that manifests power from the bottom upward. This has never been the case, as yet - in human history. A real Democracy-not a plutocracy or oligarchy could bring that sort of socialistic structure to the fore- but we are far from there now. There are elements in Baha'i that could allow for such a mechanism to develope -it is all yet to be seen. My little study of Baha'i has at least given me much food for thought as to where we are and where we may go as an ever growing global community. At least that part of Baha'u'llah's vision has manifested already.

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

Yeah once again as in the past we come up against the individual practicioner vs the theocratic organization... Just as many of our recent threads have delved into several different cults, sects and religions, even a new look at Taoist Masters being spoiled brats...these Bahai guys deserve a look-see as well... That it has sprung up from under great duress and an Islamic tradition gives the whole thing a kind of heroic ambience. And many of the doctrines are very appealing. Their web site has as much info as anyone would want, and I spent some time there. It took the edge off my curiosity. As noted here by many other Bums -good humor is a strong prerequisit for my shoveling through dogma and doctrine to glean the truthiness therein- much less find a happy home for it in my heart and mind etc. So sure all of the Bahais I've met were very kind and open and giving folks. But there have only been a few of them thus far- and long ago... Perhaps having been created from out of oppression hasn't given them a chance to lower their guard much, not a foolish thing in itself - but it does change the mindfulness of their ways of being on this globe. They have a strong political element to their practice. I have no problem with political activism. I am a political activist. But the problems of gaining power, using power and keeping power have almost always proved too much for most people to cope with. Their system seems very open and democratic on the face of it. I actually hope that they can be a force to modernize Islam. The points made on this thread about Taoism's past history are a great reminder of how everything is changing, and staying in the moment to deal with the present rapid rate of change is not easy by any means.

Qi is breath. A diet of Breath, bread and water, is one set of three that get back to basics! Thats about as simple as I would ever want to be.

I think there are some 5 million Baha'i around the world, I've only met a few. About as many as Zoroastrians... (Who at least admire dogs as beings of spirit)... The theocracy thing with the Bahais is worrisome indeed- if thats their creed... I'll do some more study also - But I hoped there would be some handy knowledge 'round here...It interests me what these folks are all about. ABOUT 3 HOURS LATER>>> I read up on the Baha'is - They stem from the Shia of Islam through the Bab (gate keepers to the Imams) who became the Babis and then Bahais. The main-stream Islamic folk are very bugged by them, as there is a wide acceptence of Christian and Judaic thought and practice. They do seem to have transcended much of the more backward-(anti-female) aspects of Islam. They also seem to ignore those philosophies "not of the Book" as in Taoism & Buddhism, etc... I am not as interested as I once was after reading up on them. There does seem to be a theocratic bent to a largely political agenda.

There has been mention of martial training and enlightened behaviors and the nature of conflict while seeking peaceful ways of being. Some tensions coming from differing systems of practice have been addressed. The conquering of our inner demons has been explored. Various tensions and conflicts have come up and gotten kicked around and tamed. The very possibility of conflict even existing within the Tao has been brought up recently. I wrote that Conflict is the 4th hexagram of the Yi Jing, and the admonishment within that judgement is that often there is a source of evil within ourselves or out in the world, and it is best to "nip it in the bud" as we see it first rear up. Long ago I chose to take the path of the warrior and try to address the imbalances caused by greed and ignorance. When enough folks got together with Compassion for the victims of abusive power and a willingness to stand and fight along-side of them, often it was enough to change the course of events. But within myself I still lusted after and craved power to satisfy somewhat more selfish goals as well. True love, glory for my ego, women for my bed, strength to gain my will's fullfillment...Vengance against those who had tormented me... Any number of striving attempts to reach enlightenment as well...These were all struggles and some remain struggles. There is also a deep resonance for "letting go" within me and a capasity to be at peace and "light hearted" even when in miserable circumstances. So I am seeking a new balance between the warrior and the free spirit. A new meditation that may strengthen me to become more centered in these conflicting personal attributes/weaknesses. I'm thinking Tai Chi may be the way for me to go now... Any ideas about these matters?

Yeah I was thrilled to read that too!- The list is a real ear opener. I want to try creating a poem around it that may actually become a chant for me to try as a supplament to the Om Mane Padme Hum which I typically use to center myself. I very much like the "One World" aspect of such an exercise in linguistic transcendence, or more to the point-centering. The power of words is way beyond swords...I've mentioned the linguistic "Ma factor" in another thread -being a pretty common root sound for mother and having a seemingly inner call for/about nurturing - depending on intonation. ( the world could use a good qi mantra these days- what with global wobble, warming, warfare and other double-u's making things uncomfortible for so many people & species.) I'll get back with my efforts sometime soon I hope- Namaste

Mr. Shaw, Welcome! I am glad you got that message out. You seem to have a deep interest in these matters- as we all do. The tone may have been a bit off-putting to some of us. But the points you make are interesting, and worth delving into -on your part - to form your current path among the many here. Most of us accept qi as a basic concept and physical part of our experiences as practicioners and seekers alike. Developing qi is integral to most practices relating to the Taoist traditions. However, I find your equation to be over-simplified. Still- Keep it comin' ! There is room for everything in the Tao Bums -as in the Tao! Michael- Me thinks we need to reclarify this: Chi's root word is not related to any food stuffs that I know of. Not even chilly con carne... Spelling confuses us all when it comes to Chinese words. If Peking can become Bejing and the local signs don't even get changed, some of us are bound to get befuddled - So- I believe you have confused Qi (or chi) with Ghee which is oddly enough mostly used in Indian ( the sub-continent one) -cooking. I am shocked by such an unusual mistake from such a lerned man- by the way- Processed ghee is called ghee-whiz, but this product must not be used to grease the palms of politicians and other such low characters. They prefer hard cash, over-seas vacations and/or sexual favors. If you on the other-hand, will take chocalate, think about a run for office in Hershey Pennsylvania, it would be a natural. And maybe Cloud Recluse would run as well -the town may have enough chocolate to satisfy both of ya! Maybe. Now I'm hungry-bye!