Wayfarer64

After a good many years wandering over this globe and being exposed to many odd and wonderous things, I've little problem staying open-minded while being over a half-century along- I think my mind has expanded over the years and I have become much more accepting of things that I do not understand, even if I've put on some weight- I don't think I'm any less tolerant of new ideas. Just bad old ones I've seen mess things up for real... So what if- I do tend to warn kids of pit-falls and culs-de sac I have stumbled through- even when I know they'd rather I didn't... But lets not start attacking everyone on this thread just to be one up on each other... This is becoming a real vitriolic hornets nest of a thread, and even if it is at least exposing our inner demons to the light there is no real advancement of ideas this way. The preconceptions are getting in the way. The Tao can hold us all as if nothing at all, and if we all suddenly ceased there would be no notice taken in the next blink of an eye. The importance of these matters in only within ourselves, the game is now playing us and we are not playing well with each other today. Lets lighten up just a wee bit. No one is wrong no one is right - it's just gonna create undo stress nit-picking our druthers apart. We all know there are dangers to some of these practices and none can work for everyone. To each there own- This fuddy-duddy is done for now-

Hi all, Cloud I do like the way you think! Yes indeed there may be no limits to our evolving consciousness! And If Quantum theory proves to be correct -as I suspect it shall- then it is only our consciousness that is "real" in any meaningful way. Thinking of you all blissfully aware in cyberspace- the tangible extension of the "quantum soup"...

Hey Cloud, Now we're really on a roll! You've expressed one great usage ot the book, if not in a nut shell, at least in terms any yogic practisioner can relate to. I also see it as a tool to keep the mind balanced and optimized in one's own Tao. That is the magic for me- that it reaches most who use it, yet each in a fifferent way at different times, on different levels. And this is only because it is our own minds that create the experience. It is a very internal experience, triggered by the Yi Jing's construct which has some deep connection to ancient anamist and shamanistic wisdom. And as has been noted, there are many numerical "coincidences" relating to human DNA etc... The nuber 8 (BA in Chinese), is the numerical basis of Feng Shui. And the philosophical roots of Feng Shui were directly developed as an off-shoot of the Book of Changes. So for me, it is about how we direct our own energies. The terminology of the "superior man" used in the Wilhelm/Baynes translations can also be translated as teacher or yogi etc... So thanks for yr input once again! And may I humbly ask you to check out my interpretations of the hexagrams and changing lines...@ http://www.lulu.com/pdgart - there are several sonnets available to read there at no cost. I would deeply appreciate any feed-back you could offer as to content or form... Even though we know that the Tao which is named is not the Tao, we all keep trying to explain our reality to each other in -what I believe to be- sincere efforts to help one-another in the transcendent practices of seeking answers to very difficult questions. It came to me to use poetic constructs to make the language more user-friendly. I hope it works for you.- Peace -Pat

I like cast iron. I've two pans - each has been used for almost 50 years and they are pretty much non-stick with so many years of oil being absorbed and trapped in the VERY high heat i use to fry & broil. The iron I absorb is a good thing too. Lozen are you worried about metalic elements from the aluminum seeping into yr system? I don't think they will leach through the steel. But I am unaware of the gist of the potential problem... Please explain what you are worried about.- Way

Magnolia tea reminds me of a very funny episode from High school. A friend was convinced that the Grateful Dead song -"Sugar Magnolia" contained a secret message that drinking Magnolia tea would get you high, so a bunch, (maybe a dozen)- of us went out and found some magnolia trees and picked the purple leaves and made a huge pot of fresh magnolia tea. I trust yr brand is more digestible then what we gulped down in large draughts, 'cause... We then proceded to each experience a serious case of gaseous flatulance that created a veritible cloud of lovely magnolia scented farts throughout the school. Many people commented on it and it soon became a direct route to ending up on the floor laughing til we cried. It made us more giddy than the crappy herb we had in those days...And I am smiling now in rememberance of those long gone halcyon days, just before the shit-storm of draft resistance and hard drugs came along to ruin lives... We shared everything in those days good & bad. It was pretty tribal in many aspects much as the Tao Bums today, we were in this thing together and indeed I still am in touch with many of my high-school friends, those who I think of as my brothers and sisters during very interesting times.

There is unfortunatly, sometimes a worrisome outcome to these devisive elements. Gang warfare. I have seen it with different Kung Fu systems in China-Town NYC- between tongs and sifus and just over-reved kids wanting to make a name for themselves as being both loyal and dangerous to mess with. I think much of this reflects a sort of emotional immaturity and lack of socialization. Being a teen-aged reclusive practicioner on a diet of celibacy and emmence portions of chi does not lead one to a well rounded socialization. The middle way is not being practiced when we strive beyond our capacities. What can work for one will not work for everyone and many systems will be needed to fulfill all searching and questing as we progress as a species and develope our abilities. There could be a spirit of shared wonder beyond the egos involved. No teacher is able to teach everyone- not Jesus or Buddha or Mohamid or any lessor guide saught out for answers. So why is it we can't all just get along? And if what would appear to be a complete loser-(Rodney King) can be paraphrased with some meaning then anyone can be a teacher ! I charge nothing for this stuff, it just flows through me like fat through a goose...

Hi Lozen, Much of my selling off of stuff is to be done on eBay. I'd say the camera could fetch ya enough for a movie rental and some pop-corn to micro-wave...If u didn't unwrap it already... In anycase I would like to win the lottery- So I just got a flash of inspired wishful thinking & here's a plan to make it happen! Everyone say a prayer for me to win it ( lets say the BIG game on Friday the 13th of October and I shall spread the wealth like the old hippy I remain! OR lets pick our six numbers of five and one super ball # and each place a buck on that selection to split the pot before hand if that seems more FAIR... If our collective consciousness can do that, then we can build a Taoist center and pay ourselves to remain a collective consciousness and there will be no end to wonders we may build upon... All of our problems of a material nature would be solved and we could concentrate on our inner development... AND we would be on the cover of all those nifty mags (right next to Tom Cruise) -at the check-out counters of large super-markets. The Elixer Pellet just may be our collective consciousness and the gold a place for that consciouness to thrive- and work out more good karma than Nader's raiders... Woowee!! It's a whole new way to be in it to win it...And an interesting test of collective will on the quantum level for the scientists among us to ponder. A total win-win. My 6- I'll glean from the Yi Jing- 8-union; 10- conduct; 13- fellowship; 14- wealth; 42-increase;- and the big-ball -40-deliverence... so thats the basis for an experiment in collective gleaning of resources from our shared universal quantum experience-(some call it The Tao)... Is this a means to an end or the begining of real means to foster many ends? Anyway it's been fun adding this to our interactions here.-(ever the optimist) Pat

If nothing else this thread has been one hellofaride...So many aspects of seeking and becoming and doubting and wonderment... People have doubted my own out of body experiences and what I have observed first person , so I will keep an open minded and open eyed view of these matters.... Faith in reason may be an oxymoron, or a paradox or just a way to see our universe with feet on the ground, but thats what I'm stuck with for now. Much of this seems reasonable even if beyond my ken. I assume there are realms of consciousness that I have not experienced but do exist. I DO NOT KNOW! If the claims are just bait to lure the gullible amongst us, then I am ashamed for us all as part of this excersize; and our blindness - in our avid persuit of unreal expectations. Otherwise we have been exposed to elements of human potential that are true and astounding. I admit I have doubts that are reasonable and the acceptence of factors of consciousness that I have no scientific or imperical evidence for. So my interest could hardly be greater! My situation denies any further exploration beyond the vicarious nature of these threads. I just wish you all well in this exploration. It does fascinate.

Hey tri-dot, Funny you should bring that up -One reason that I have so little money these days is that I spent most of my last several years taking care of my mom who died just last year. I would not have done other-wise and truly feel it was a blessing for me as well as for her to have been able to see her through to the end in a dignified and spiritually comforting circumstance. But it did undermine my ability to keep any - or make much - money. And now I am more interested in working on my own life-long questing for spiritual knowledge than making money, so there is no fault to be found only an adjustment to be made. I am selling off all of my worldly possessions over the next several months, save some few I plan to put in storage -mostly books... And then start living a much more simplistic life as I once did. That is as far as the plan has developed - save for an idea that China holds my future. We shall see. One amazing Quality of life seems to be that I always do somehow have what I need and have not been unduly worried about the lack there-of. I worry more about the children of Darfur - there is something very much out of balance there !!! When real horror attaches itself to people's lives I am at a loss to explain why/how such things happen as the world looks on. Maybe A great teacher will have an answer for me one day as to the causality of such suffering...I wonder what that will cost me to find out?

For many years the Yi Jing keeps telling me I am already enlightened and I don't know it!? So what kind of proof am I looking for? I can not accept this state of being as that which I wish to call enlightened. I want more. I search for more through meditation and long walks and celibacy and training and sharing love and reversing all the above processes and indulging my sensuality and taking drugs and reversing again and seeking teachers who I hope have mastered these changes and can impart their wisdom; and martial arts and writing books on the experiences and sonnets on the Yi Jing and trying to live a selfless life through political activities that put my very life in danger... And then I take a rest. I stop seeking. I stop striving. I stop becoming and just let myself be. And just as I become a bum I find the Tao Bums! I no longer seek anything other than to enjoy my journey towards bliss as Sean has been telling me (via Joseph Campbell). And maybe through all those stages I was enlightened and didn't know it because I was on the path of my Tao amid those activities and held a course thet offered the most potential to be the best person I can be. My life's path, which will never have a drop of perfection for me to see as such will have been nonetheless a perfect journey through the now. Becoming something new is inevitable for all life, as is our becoming dead. How we go about this is the evolutionary process inherent to all life. We grow towrds the light as does almost all life - those giant worms in the deep ocean are just the white dot in the black expanse of oceanic being that lets us know there is always more to life than what we can even suspect!

Sticks are the best , then coins ( due to the odds of heads and tails being not quite the same as the sticks method)- then any other method... But- The process is viable. I know long-time consulters of the book who just open to a page at random and poke their finger on a spot on one of the two available pages to see what the book is telling them!!! I for one would not go that route as it is the state of mind I am in from a meditative lead-up to and follow through where I find the doors opening to my perception of cercumstances I am curious about.... I do have some concern as to filtering through the on line systems. For instance when people ask me to help them learn the Yi Jing and throw the coins I try to have as little to do with the actual process from choosing coins to reading the book as I possibly can -because I feel as if my activity as a go-between changes the out-come. Something like the Quantum Mechanics problem of the observer creating the out-come of the observed events he is trying to study. But with another observer being the source of explaination. The seeker of answers acts as if blind and needing a sighted person to tell the situation's events. Hey maybe if the question relates to problems with yr computer this may help!-(just a wee joke)-

Hi everyone, Sean I agree with you that "fairness" is a very elusive gauge of progress. There is NO fairness in nature, (or the Tao) - as a meaningful concept. But there is balance. And when societies fall out of balance people revolt. That is the reaction shown by the experiments, and history is full of such activity. The politicalization of life style sprung up in the '60's and potentially liberated us all from social tyranny. But the inherent selfishness of such "special interest" groups as blacks, women, gays etc. flew in the face of the selfless striving of past generations. For millenia most social norms were not open for discussion. Women usually did not have a voice in politics, children worked long hard hours and the status quo was a patriarchal colonialization of the world at large. State vs state warfare was the expected reality and warriors were a privelaged class, at least in the top ranks. For the past few centuries that was Europian based and further promulgated through the "American Century" of the 1900's. Much good was done through the self-sacrifice many of my generation's fathers displayed with due diligence. But politicallyand spiritually, they were for the most part, quite naive about their own potentials as human beings. For the West, it was the introduction of Buddhism and Taoism (& LSD etc.) that opened the next generation to the concepts of personal development that did not fit into the far more materialistic goals of our fathers' generation. It was indeed an effort to follow ones' bliss, but it carried the idea that no man is an island as well - so social justice was a large piece of baggage many felt needed to be toted along as well... Meanwhile...The concept of karma and strict social norms stultified the East. And Maoism did nothing for fairness or freedom. Those social norms are only now changing in the major urban centers of the "Orient"...(And I've seen mostly a pretty cut-throat version of capitalism so far in the several Asian countries I've visited). It was also our father's abhorance for war -after WWII's horrors - that broke the back of the selective service and forced the Viet Nam conflict to wind down and eventually end. Parents did not want their children to fight in a meaningless war that seemed only to be happening for the sake of the Military Industrial Complex that Ike had warned of. That generation of great sacrifice was not going to sacrifice the next generation to a meat-grinder. There was a political awareness which was in some part allowed to flurish due to a very high and quite wide-spread standard of living. A time when the "have nots" got pissed off because they could plainly see the unfairness off a situation where their sons were still being fed into that meat-grinder and that the society was not well balanced...So we had the upheavals of the 60's & 70's... Seeking fairness -or balance to be more Taoist in language - is a fairly old concept in any nation's internal politics. It began with the Book of Changes which addresses such balance in almost every aspect. The American Founding Fathers had The Enlightenment's literature to spur them on to reform the very concept of social justice and create a viable democracy. Not a new idea but a new force in the world. It is still an on-going process. But it would seem that Fairness has been introduced to the equation and is here to stay... I hope! The west sees history as linear the east sees it as cyclical. I see it as a spiral! The sun is not stationary, (but I'm not sure anyone has figured out its trajectory), we circle the sun- so the earth moves in a spiral through space and time. I take my ques from that movement and see nothing but potential growth for a long time to come. But violence is almost always part of the change when it comes to unseating those people who are enjoying actual political power. I just hope that our current administration in the USA, ( that won & kept power in two VERY questionable elections)- can be removed in a yes - "FAIR" election?! The balance in this culture's trajectory is way out of wack, and the wobble is now disaffecting the world's environment and social stability. It will be very hard to follow any bliss if the global environment is thrown too far out of balance due to the greed of the past few generations. For thirty years I have been part of the Public Interest Research Group's activities. Few listened to us. and now we may have actually tipped the environment so far out of balance that there will be little we can do to recover. These are political issues at the core. They can not be ignored for-ever.

One quick observation is that these discriptions from each of us - and those we quote - have decribed some sense of "traveling" into our deepest selves, towards heaven, into higher, spiritual aspects of ourselves, into the earth, even communing with a disembodied sage/oracle as possible and experienced interactions that our minds as "consciousness" have tried to express. These are the things that really grab my wonderment and impel me to delve ever deeper into the inherent mystery of how any book becomes a vehicle, and how the Book of Changes just seems to be geared for any road! The sense of gently being lead to new perspectives seems deliberate and meaningful to me.

Hi all, Sean I think yr right in the tack that you take but are steering a course that has new rips running through it. Laissez-faire capitalism isn't being applied in a very fair manner any more. The system is now re-rigged to work so much better for the plutocracy and oligarchy that there is a deminished ability to live without real striving just to maintain a simple life style. At least in America these days... There are many instances when changes have come to social systems on every scale of human activity and were likely to have been resented... Here are a few ideas and examples of different kinds of materialism and spirituality that have gone through cultural shifts, where it would have been hard to adapt to the changing norms... The East Village in NYC was once a haven for free-spirits to live a bohemian and artistic lifestyle that allowed them to concentrate on their work and interactivity. That has been suplanted by wealthy folks who bought the buildings and created an environment where suburbanites can be comfortible, but it stiffles the untried nature of experimental life styles that once prevailed there. There have been kind and fair people who owned slaves and never questioned that system which was all they knew. They were still resented by their slaves, who revolted against them. And we can't forget the tantric colonies in south-western India that were wiped out by invaders who couldn't have cared less how evolved and inlightened the people they slaughtered were. I bet that happy-go lucky bunch thought the invasion pretty freaking unfair! Communism and socialism have ideals based on a supposed fairness, but these systems have seldom if ever been imposed in a fair or just manner. Materialism is a whole different internal value system that undermines both socialism or capitalism when compassion and fair-mindedness are negated by averice and greed. So once again it is up to us to become better individuals and help steer whatever culture we are in towards a more compassionate modus...Even if it's only to make us feel better about ourselves! I'm not sure there was any coersion for beliefs to be changed in the experiments we're on about here. I thought it was just about fairness - and resentment that can become self-distructive if there is a perception of unfairness...

Hi again Thaddeus, I'm not sure I know what you are asking, but in terms of constant change being understood and no big deal to you, I think that is actually a large conceptual leap in the minds of humans. Until very recently humans thought the world was the center of the sun's orbit and many other ideas that have been proven wrong. Many ideas about the nature of reality will change for us all. So, I think it is a big deal. An open mind is a prerequisit to seeking any sort of truth. And an openness to change is a given for open-mindedness... If you are asking about the interactions between hexagrams found in the changing lines I can only offer my own approach as developed over the years to help promote inner growth and connectivity to the natural world. I try to think of what I would need to do to attain or avoid the consiquences suggested by the changing lines as they pertain to the question asked. I think about what the needed critical path to my goals would be and if I can apply the suggested attitudes in a sensible way. Sometimes I do not find the connections, often I do. But it is the meditation before and after the consultations where the work is done. The Yi Jing I use as if a snap-shot taken from deep space to get a general idea of where I'm at. A different perspective is all it is, and each often inigmatic line can have different interpretations for different situations. The basic discriptions of characteristics of the tri-grams and the attributes of the lines, either changing or not- are meant to be the points of departure into an "accounting" of our own internal checks and balances. These comments on your hexagrams' changing lines are not meant to be literal guide-posts for behavior patterns and ways to proceed. But they may indicate what human attributes are needed to become a better human, which are spelled out in terms of perseverance in the right. It is a book developed to bring an inlightened and evolved - (to address another thread's theme here); way of conducting ourselves. This being a way based on the natural attributes so much saught after in sages and masters of any school of thought. A sort of how-to book of self-developement...presented as a tool of devination or a way to tell fortunes, so people will consult it for any number of reasons and receive a bit of ancient wisdom for their efforts. Jung does go into a scetchy idea of his experiments but claims not to have taken notes so I may come to a dead-end in that research pretty soon-unless I do some of the same sorts of experimenting myself...So more later- Pat

Hey there Thaddeus, This is exactly why I wanted to bring this up. There is little if any relationship between Tarot and the Yi Jing. Except in the root nature of causality and the true nature of our myriad seperate realities being united on mystical and/or sub-atomic levels. The Yi Jing is a book of observation of natural cycles and manifestations, that may be applied to circumstances when meditation and practice come together in the attempt to reach a level of interactivity found through-out the united universal system we call our reality. The Yi Jing is the basic source of Taoist thought put into a context that makes us think of applications. It is not about the supposed obvious gleaning of mystical mumbo-jumbo as if going to a sooth-sayer. It is about learning the ways of nature and the connectivity of all life within the Tao. And yes that is to become conscious of that which you are already aware of on deeper levels. I put the question in a context of literal interpretation and seeking answers as if petitioning with prayer for a purpose. I admit to leading this thread into that realm as a way of advancing a fuller realization of the Book of Changes' meaning and uses. I am researching Jung's experiments with the Book of Changes and hope to have an idea of what he found out within a year's time... I believe there is no Taoist study without an understanding of the roots of Taoism, which is The Book of Changes. All development is from the bottom up, from the roots to the fruits. If its the Blues to hip-hop or the YI Jing to modern Zen, there is no understanding of modern practice without the shamanistic source being explored.

Hi Sean, I sometimes wish that I had a good deal more money. I could then contribute to meaningful causes -such as the Tao Bums and various relief organizations etc...As it is, I have never been as poor in cash and investments as I am now. Mostly because I have not put much real effort into obtaining these things of late. It may be that I am out of balance in this regard or my balance is shifting to a more humble state of being. It is not yet a "comfortible" circomstance for me to be actually poor, which I am by American standards. I have been in pursuit of many things throughout my life, but money has seldom been among the objects of my desire. I do realize that money is an inabler of change. Also, that many who have spent their lives in pursuit of wealth often retain little of " true and lasting" value within themselves. Camels can not pass through the eye of a needle. Greedy folks have little chance of enlightenment is a given, at least in this context. Still...Survival is not greed. As you note - we are earthly beings on the most basic of levels and survival is surely a "prime directive" of life. In the context of this thread which seems to relate to the support of our teachers and sources of spiritual development - I am often at a loss to express my gratitude. These sources can be anyone or anything! How do we thank the clouds that inspire reverance for the beauty of our world? Gifts and offerings we bring to those we admire, love, adore or revere - are tokens of our faith and trust in their abilities to transform our lives - be they lovers, spouses, kids, kith, kin, teachers, places of worship or just sacred spaces we find on walks in the mountains. Any of these gifts are only of value if given in a spirit of thanks and reverance for the shared inner spirit which has no name. So it would seem to me that being the best human-being possible is the greatest gift that we can offer, and the paths of spiritual questing found here are often expressed in those terms. There is also some quite selfish questing - that a great teacher can dispell and move an able student through. These elements of give and take are the dance of life and learning the steps is tricky. The materialism of modern society is an impedament to smooth foot-work. We often need to free ourselves of encumbering values before we can attempt to join the dance, much less really "cut a rug"...(Mastering any dance form has spiritual conotations to me. It is a glorious expression of humanity, grace and will combined, and can have martial applications as well.). Alas, I have not yet met a master who would accept free dance lessons as payment!

A quick link to get the images up here on this thread- http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/jindan/taiji_tu.html

Hi all, I have some problem with the concepts of materialism and selfishness as being seperable in humans. It may be that the rampant consumerism in the USA - that has developed just in my own life-time has me angry and bewhildered. It isn't fair and I understand the resentment factor in the experiments. When I was a teen-aged-hippy-freak in the late 60's I really believed that our society and culture were changing into a much less materialistic model; where transcendant social values would be practiced and taught as the social norm. Man was I wrong!!! So I'm thinking Western culture pretty much peaked around 1969-70 and then started a retrenchment of cut-throat capitalism. The current disregard for environmental and socialistic approaches to problems has me reacting like the subjects "gyped" in the division of wealth scenarios of the tests- It pisses me off and I want to take the wealth away from those who have unfairly taken the lion's share. By the way-taking the lion's share isn't just taking the most, it means taking as much as the lion wants! Greed and the lack of concern for the larger consiquences due to that greed, & its inherent waste and huberis are the antithisis of the Taoist concept of perseverance in the right. That our world's environment is on the brink of catachlismic change due in large part to that full-on selfish and ignorant approach - proves the wrong-headedness of such behaviors. If the tests show that at some point those left out will rebel and offer a come-upence to the greedy. Well don't say we didn't warn ya -way back in the 60's! Like a sticker reads which is offered for whatever you can spare- by the homeless in NYC - MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.

When I meditate on a question and throw the coins for a reading from the Yi Jing ( I Ching) -it may also be a form of petitioning. I seek an answer through the linkage between my being and the ever-changing cosmic order that seems to always maintain a grip on my reality. It has had the most profound affect on me. Beyond any and all other books I've read and studied. My deepest connections with Taoist thought and practice springs from almost 40 years of such consultation and contemplation using several translations and meditation techniques. I feel a deep personal relationship to the Book of Changes and still experience amazing revealations when I delve into the way it adresses the questions I ask of it. Carl Jung had a very interesting series of questions and experimental attempts to ask the Yi Jing about itself. I hope to find out more about those experiments and his interpretations of the results... The 64 sonnets I wrote relating to The Book of Changes seemed to have been "channeled" through me and became a new source for reflection and contemplation that held a sort of direct communication back and forth through time ... A sort of personal response to the original creators of the ancient traditions. But as to this thread- If JC had an Aramaic or Hebrew translation/copy of the Book of Changes -which is a possibility, then I would say he could very well have been a Taoist practitioner. Such speculations are fun but just don't hold much water to me. I really do believe him to have ben a very Hebrew sort of thinker with a stronger Buddhist influence than a Taoist one... It seems there are not as many Tao Bums who consult the Yi Jing as I thought there would be. Maybe I should start a new thread to get a fuller view of how da Bums are using such consultation as part of their Taoist practices ...

"I understand what you are saying wayfarer. And in fact I have supported the anti-capitalist cause in the past. Even spent a little time in the clink for it. Nowadays I prefer to think that it will destroy itself soon enough." Hey there Darebak- It ain't soon enough for me my friend! The system is too full of abuses these days. I've been working hard with Common Cause and the Green Party -(which I quit due to their anti-Israeli position)...And I created a not for profit organization The Tenants Rights and Information Network (T.R.A.I.N.) that is fighting the largest land-lord in the USA right now - AIMCO - to regain and protect tenants rights-mostly in NJ.... I don't blame the system I blame those who abuse the system and live for avarice and greed with all the horrors you mention. I've ranted - maybe too much here- about the Military Industrial Complex and how it steals our wealth as a nation. BUT- Just think what could be accomplished building wind-mills and solar collectors and geo-thermal plants & great public transportation systems etc-instead of the weapons and war machines! It's not that capitalism doesn't work and socialism does- there are plenty of abuses there too- it is who/what we allow to lead and govern our lives and states. Be it a teacher who has a scam to run or a Govt. with a scam to run, we each need to be able to hear truth from lies and geta grip on what motivates those we follow BEFORE we follow them or elect them ot allow ourselves to work for them... Often enough we make mistakes and sometimes these we learn from and thus we grow... None of this is easy to sort out. But at least we got the Bums for a "sounding board" - not much bull shit floats through the sieve of all these seekers' minds unimpeded...And even if we add some of our own - (fresh as I can type it!)- in the balance what we get has the ring of truth to it often enough to be potable! As far as this thread goes- It would seem that those who HAVE trained with David have been better-off for the experience. I would trust that Imperical knowledge. That there are charlatins out there -we know- having the word of people who train with any number of teachers and come back to share the experiences here is invaluable !

Interesting speculations over here...! I am struck by the many catagorizations and differentiations that are being used to seperate the many aspects of becoming evolved or enlightened. It seems to me that as a species we have been doing these things in tandum. As has been noted on other threads - societies in general have seen changes that allow both men & women from within our many races of people,- to operate on a par with each-other. This is not true in some societies, even those with a long history of the Habits of Civilization, but in general many prejudices have falling into the past. This strikes me as being part of both enlightenment and evolution. The races are now mixing gene pools as never before. We are bound to create more evolved people this way. We are becoming enlightened as to how the universe works and this grants many of us spiritual growth as well. Our minds expand to take in the emmensity of the cosmos and we somehow relate ourselves to this expanding ever-changing mystical and glorious potentiality. Once related we are drawn into being part of it on many levels of consciousness and being. As we grow into our potentials all aspects eventually catch up with each-other and move on seperately or together as changes keep happening... There seems to be a very natural process of GROWTH that is the nature of this worlds' nature and the larger cosmic order as well. Growth seems to be inevitable. Individual goals are another matter. I do not believe we can will ourselves to enlightenment nor strive for it through meditation or qigong or any self-determined path. Any striving is counter-productive to enlightenment, which is in my humble understanding the loss of self into the larger world's being. A sort of giving up your self or -"that which dies" before you die- to acccept the whole of this universe as your "body"...To raise our consciousness to a level where all is one and you are just a part of it, yet still having a free will to comport yourself in this splendid swirl of being as best you can... At least that's what I've gleaned so far. Evolution and enlightenment happen to us. We can make choices to allow these changes or thwart them, but change is here to stay. Entropy and gravity co-exist in an eligant dance on incredible levels of cosmic interplay. Within ourselves are forces just as emmence that we need to balance in order to move ahead WITH (what I see as) the natural trending towards enlightenment and evolution. I for one believe evolution is the natural order of the universe and thus the Tao. Enlightenment is the self expanding into the great cosmic order of constant change to finally desolve into the environment each spirit lives in. With our own bodies being that which we are directly responsible for and the life around us being as much a part of that body as our original "shells" once were. Thanks for the chance to think about this question!- Wayfarer

Hi y'all, I've never met a teacher or master who didn't expect some sort of compensation for their efforts to teach and share their knowledge. It is the way of our world. The commoditization of our world is a worrisome prospect, but if drinking water can be sold at astronomical prices, I guess teaching is as precious and can be valued on the material levels also. Dojo's cost money to rent, books cost money to print, we all need to eat real food, ( as snarfing urine just won't ever catch on mainstream)...So some of our existence is still tied to the material plane and needs to be supported. Many masters have families that also need to eat and sleep in relative comfort. So I think we are stuck with at least a partialy capitalistic system for now. I am sure there are some more socialistic systems that support Taoist communities and temples in China or Burma but they come with their own problems as has been discussed in other threads...Capitalism with all its horrors and tyranies is also part of the Tao and a seemingly natural way to go about our daily existence. This is also true of Socialism and any other ism out there... each system is part of the fabric of human interactions. The Tao is not above the world in some glorified state. It is part of each aspect and is the spirited glory within each aspect. From a drop of urine to the super-clusters of galaxies each thing in its own Tao each part of a larger aspect of the Tao. Humility is valued as a human trait to persever in, but hubris is not. The Tao needs no adoration or to be placed above our daily lives. It just is. If your worried about commoditization join Common Cause and fight the good fight on the Artha levels...- peace -Pat

Here is a bit of controversy for us to mull over... Ward Churchill has been labled by some as a traitor to America. But I wonder if a Native American who's heritage of Shamanism and Earth as Mother not property -was and remains under attack by this society, should have any loyalty to the system that destroyed his culture... Is his a Warrior's path on the Taoist Way? It will piss some folks off no doubt, but the theory of the banality of evil has some merit. Group-think has produced many monsters...If the USA's corruption and racist practices from Burma to Oklahoma provoke armed response; can we still sympathize with the oppressed, even if they are our nation's "enemies"? This of course doesn't apply to those Bums from other nations but their input is even more important here. This thread raises important issues that go beyond our personal questing to address how we actually live in the world. Self-realization is not so far from self-absorbsion if the world we live in is neglected. I believe it is the love of the wider world that leads to true mastery of the self, and the subsiquent loss of ego and the part of us that is "that which dies"...Linking our spirit to the natural world instead of the shell of our own body as it were... At what point do our day-to-day activities add to the pressures on the environment and the pressures on indiginous people to submit to the onrush of globalization?... These are all troubling questions that go to the core of our personal values. I for one have only respect for the gumption it takes to address the issues raised by Churchill. Check out what he has to say... http://www.zmag.org/bios/homepage.cfm?authorID=62 peace-wayfarer

Dacayed Neutrinos to Star-dust to primordial soup to mud-fish to lemur to human-prototype to Humanoid/ Homo-erectus to Tao Bum! TAa DAH! Evolution works its magic...