Wayfarer64

Thank you Cameron! That is very refreshing to hear and I am grateful to you for illuminating this thread with an impirical example of study that afirms the natural unity that I have only been able to discuss in more naturalistic and general terms...I have read books and been shown some meditative techniques said to be Zen but have also incountered a hostility from some folks who claim to be part of Zen towards the non-Japanese elements - as our friend Mandrake seems to be headed in that direction, it worries me as perhaps being part of a less than open approach to our common humanity. I meant no disrespect toward the practice of Zen as a whole, only the elemants that refute Chinese or Indian contributions...and seem to be seeking a purity that I find repelant in attitude and questionable logically. I just don't get it. But as in most cases every sect has a sub-sect and so on to the individual with a singular mind-set and cultural baggage. I admit to a slight distrust of "the Japanese" due to historical attrocities that are not owned up to ... and a Japanese step-mother who was at best an ignorant narrow-minded and mean-spirited such-n-such...But she was of the Renichi ShoShu - (Nom yoho renge Kio) Buddhists -She always struck me as being particularly materialistic in her approach to chanting and what she hoped to gain through chanting... So I am extremely happy to hear your experience was not along those lines at all! I beg your pardon if my harsh tone offended you. When something smacks of racism I call it out and wish to do battle against it with as much force as I can bring to the confrontation.

many thanks! I just added it to my jokes page- @ www.pdgart.com/jokes.html

I keep getting too much copy in pulling quotes! sorry for the wasted space&time-... Anyway- I've been telling people that I am "An Earthling" for many years, if they keep digging I'll tell 'em I'm a panthiest, that I have found something of value in every philosophy I have come across... But of course I have my druthers too, as I've expressed ad nausium already! But the real haters are best just left alone, they are going the way of the dinosaur and we should let them go...

War IS hell! And if yr in it - best bring it, no doubt my brother. I just believe that the true enemy is using the terrorists as a front to create the "war on terror". This has been done to thus create profits. The whole world loses. Yes, we all lose except the Military Industrial Complex (MIC)- the Haliburtons and Exxons and Corporate moguls who are running the world... The Saudis created the 9/11 terrorists. This has been shown. Macho George Bush HOLDS HANDS with the Saudi princes as they stroll along and he allows pictures to be taken - not caring a rosy red rat's ass what it looks like to the American public...This is a false war that could have been curtailed EASILY had there been political will to do so from both the Clinton and Bush administrations. 9/11 need never have happened 'cept the neo-cons demanded that it happen, so they could go and get the Iraqi oil and sew -up the region in yet another us and them struggle...That boosts the profits to a new level of obsenity for Exxon and other corporate entities... It has been said that fascism is the state being run for the good of corporations, what Ike first called the Military-Industrial Complex. This idea was stated from many world leaders such as Churchill, Mussilini and Peron -who wanted to call his regime "The Corporation"! ... As well as Robert Kennedy Jr. more recently. The nazis may have lost WWII but fascism prevailed as the new world order. That is the real enemy of our world's enlightened progress at this time. That they can convince us that the Jihadists are the real enemy is so damn easy to do - for them- that it will make the future wonder just what sorts of idiots live in our time. They trained one group to attack another group and then rake in the dough as we shit ourselves in terror and develope war machines to surpass all in history, to chase a cadre of militerized puppets in the mountains of central Asia. Lets not forget that the USA originally supported the Jihadists when the MIC wanted a Russian front to sell their weapons into... World politics is being driven by global corporations with no conscience to answer to. We are all victims paying at the pump or with our blood and treasure to secure the oil for them, as if their interests were ours. Our interests are in creating a new source of energy and cleaning-up the mess these bastards have made over the past century of industrial "progress".

Thanks for the kind words! I have never found it difficult to keep a strong arm and stout heart at the ready to defend my artistic and poetic sensibilities. But I have also never thought that American society had a grasp on what culture can mean to men who wish to be more than fans of a sports team or drive a sports car, or pick-up truck with a gun rack to identify themselves as men... Islamic men are sports fans too I assume - but may have guns more often than cars to project masculinity...A knife in yr belt made of Rhino horn may project power in their culture - but I think that comparing masculine traits is a dead end...Every society has its own status symbols and " scent markers " for turf and territory... I think we are plenty tough enough as a race; and our leadership here in America is certainly a war-mongering lot at this time and they did manage to grab and keep power through two illegitimate "elections"... So, I think the machismo thing is alive and well as we project power around the world. Implicit moral inferiority to women!? Whathefuckisthat!? Man you must never have dated western women! Freakin' killer elite! I've been blessed with having known quite a few truly enlightened women but they are rare in my experience of sophisticated urban society...and crap I don't know where to start...It just doesn't ring true. The materialism of American women seems out of the ball-park compared to any other demographic group -save perhaps ALL American teen-agers! I don't buy it. And Europeans are catching up to our rampant materialism as is the rest of the world. as stated above- I stated my view of Islamic fundamentalists above... I agree with your basic premise that Islam needs a reformation or a referendum on a reformation or maybe just a refresher course in civility. There is a change taking place that needs to be addressed in a manner that will educate and inform and instill pride without casting aspersions on Jews and Yankees (not the team)... Being pissed off and acting out - as a political statement and end in itself just lacks maturity. But how can we expect maturity from guys who spent their whole lives reading one interpretation of one book that then was warped into a Jihadist rant!? These are one-dementional beings with little but sexual frustration and hate to fuel their minds and activities. Exposing the Saudi money that supports and creates these twisted fucks is job one. But when the 9/11 commission came out the Bush administration tried to black-out the 28 pages that outlined how it was Saudi money that paid for the hijackers and their support teams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have written here already what I think is going on... That the power elite of this world and the milatary-industrial complex (that is now a global juggernaught) is running the show. The Carlyle group. THE CARLYLE GROUP. THE FUCKING CARLYLE GROUP! Our leadership has sold us out. We need to look inward as a society to see our own faults and correct them ASAP rather than worry about the arab hot-heads who are just tools of the oil companies that run the various governments supporting these wars of proxy and "terrorist" groups. The seed of terrorism is in the power structures that enable them to exist. The true weakness of western man -and this is much more prevalent in the USA than anywhere else in the world- is our abysmal ignorance of world and local politics that shapes our reality. Most American men do not know the names of their State senators, their congressmen the various secretaries in the Federal Govt. They do not understand the structure of our government nor the importance and content of our Constitution. But they can usually tell you the stats of their favorite sports' team man for man! And forget about geo-political realities or even plain geography! The manishness of men all over the world is based on boyish interests that have not been out-grown. We do not know the world we live in further than the teams our teams play against. So we tend to be an us or them sort of reactionary bunch on the team or off the team, with little concept of being on the side of humanity or tolerance or peace AS MASCULINE and FORCFUL stances to take against a power structure that demands local loyalties above all. They devide and conquer us one by one as groups anyway they can! The last thing the oil companies' war machine wants is peace or environmental awareness. Their profits would dive dramaticly if hippies ran the world! They pray to their God with thanks that valuing the Earth and humanity over profit and materialistic status is a long ways off... So I do not believe the problem with facing up to Islamic militerism is in our unwillingness to fight them but in our lack of willingness to confront our own leaders' corruption and greed, that supports Saudi Interests over the interests of the nation they were elected to protect and uphold the Constitution of. This administration has undermined our Constitution in a willful and unforgivable attack that supercedes the attacks of 9/11 in threat and actual harm dealt this nation. The only Western men that have demonstrated a total lack of mannishness are the Democrates in the Federal Government that have allowed this power grab to transpire. Ironicly this power grab was allowed as a show of verile support for the war effort at hand !!! Bah fucking HUMBUG to such vapid manishness!

Beware the addictive so don't get hooked -on - baiting -ouch! I became an addict just yesterday and rather liked the sound of being a master better... but better or beater or bater being a bum is a good thing. And having a good job is a good thing...Be careful out on the high-C's(eas) those high notes can shiver yr timbers!

Dear Mandrake - I'm not getting where yr coming from with this- Being silly about the origins of Zen seems a bit out of place - but hey have fun with it...the doctrine you claim that was "kept together" never existed as such as a vihicle to bring Buddhism to China. If you need to believe in fairytales stay in the middlekingdom and enjoy yourself. But I do not see why the idea of a blended system of thought is so threatening to Zen proponents at this late date. Do you feel yourselves "above" the origins of your sect? Are you indeed a true Zen practicioner that is deeply concerned with where Zen is going? Zen is not the only form of Buddhism and Zen can not claim to be the main-stream or even the most legit form of Buddhism. (As Islam claims to be the latest and therefore greatest religion to come from "the book" or Abraham) - etc... The purity factor that Zen practicioners like to portray themselves with is just not real. And theirs is not the only thread of Buddhist thought that claims to hold a direct link back to Buddha. There may well be some small sect within Zen's liniage that is more "pure" than most others, but is that even a good thing? The claim of purity is usually used in very bad ways and I for one distrust its very nature and impetus. It is usually racist or at best segragationist in nature. As much as many of us do not like the linier nature of history - this thread is about the origins of Zen and those origins can be traced through many permutations. That Buddhism was reviled in China is a given... which is a reason to "mix it" so as to make it palitable to the Chinese. The early Buddhists in China were missionaries as well as practitioners and had to find a way to communicate their ideas in the religious language of those they were offering their new ideas to. The Bodidarma was the first to be reasonablly successful at this and that is why he is credited with bringing Buddhism to China -he made it stick to some degree. That Taoist ideas and language were used to do this seems only natural. Do you think that The Buddha's dialect or native tongue was used to communicate his ideas in China? This could not have been the case. So how could his teachings also remain unchanged if the way they were communicated was in the religious imagery of Taoist thought. Do you really believe that The Chinese accepted these new ideas without making them fit into their long-held belief systems? The Confucian system of honoring the past would deny that possibility as very likely. Buddhists needed to adapt their new ideas into the old ideas to give them any hope of being taken to heart. It is sad to me that there is such vehement denial of these changes having happened. The Zen of today is associated most strongly with Japan. I pray this fear of Chinese influence is not just another form of racial hatred from the Japanese. Something they are so well know for through-out their history. But the viscious nature of the Japanese conduct in WWII - while being "good Buddhists" is for another thread perhaps.

That sounds/seems like the historical truth to my ears - But I also understand the stand-alone concept of Zen only being Zen and not a compilation of its' historic roots...In this now it is only Zen. in past nows it was becoming Zen... The long-ago moment when a Taoist scholar first heard of Buddhism and had his satori of joining elements of each has everything/nothing to do with this moment's Zen. Getting back to the "was of now" is a bit like using a rickity bridge that bares little trafficking in egos so I'll agree to see this side of the span across time as Zen having left the nest. An image has sprung to my mind- Zen is no fledgling... it has taken flight and flies like an arrow ever zinging toward/in satori!! The bow of constant change has its'on-going force but it is no longer one with the arrow...Which now has a single direction to fly...The arrow's shaft is Buddhist the feathered flights are Taoist and the point is Bushido...Maybe the archer was Buddha and our (collective) third eye is the target! BANG! And that may be the longest string of mixed metaphores I have ever written!

Michael, What you say is all entirely true. And addresses the human condition on the Artha level of existance very well. The "Politics of the other" has always been with us causing mayhem and grief. But what I am alluding to and trying to illustrate is more metaphysical and insidious. There are people who have given up their very souls to become something other than fully human. I may not be able to explain the phenomina very clearly but it is not about creating differences among ourselves it is about seeing the humanity in each-other or the lack there-of in a very concrete way as some people have the ability to "read" auras. Sociopaths have the ability to share love with those they consider part of "themselves" as most will still protect their own children, parents, pets and spouses etc. But otherwise there is a total lake of compassion, none. They can make no connection outside of the realm they consider their own. What I'm trying to explain is along those lines of abhorant human behavior, but at a deeper level where the socio-psyco pathic nature is a totality. There is the ability to behave as if they are part of our shared humanity but the actual receptor/conveyor of humanity (soul) is not there. Maybe soul in the wrong word to use here - I could just say they have lost their capacity to behave in anything but a willfull manner. Their is no conscience to modify their most selfish will; or that their connectivity to the inner god-head is gone, or they are cold-hearted...But I just say they got no soul and think it makes the point. Society usually doesn't see the multi-murdering serial killers until it is much to late and then we always hear what seemingly "nice " people these sick-fucks were... All I am trying to get across is that there are some very dangerous beings out there that can fool us and do us harm if we are not aware of their potential for evil. And I believe that with a little insight and the force of our own inner-light to illuminate the darkness we can see the emptyness within them. That evil men pet dogs means nothing. Have you ever seen the film of Hitler with his dog? -a german shepherd that cringed and kept its' tail tucked the whole while AH was playing with him/her/ The dog's body language was of fear not playfulness. That pooch knew his master was a bad man it shows on the film... There is evil and we can spot it in others as well as ourselves. And that is where the struggle has always been...! within each and everyone of us to nurture our own inner lights in order to illuminate whatever darkness also resides within us and make it powerless as a force in our lives. Everyone fights this fight. But some folks lose it and become problematic. Peace

Hi again Cloud And Mandrake etal- First I think we can be pretty sure that Bodidarma and fellow monks did bring Buddhism to China from India. It did not spring up as if in a parralel universe on its own. When Buddhism reached China Taoism was there already. It is a very natural and reasonable conclusion to make that some Buddhism remained quite pure, some Taoism remained pure and there was also a synthisis created that took componants of each. There is not very much argument that these two paths created a third. It did not fade away into nothingness so that much later what became known of as Zen could emerge. It grew into what became known of as Zen. Zen is not Taoist. Zen has remnants of Taoist mystisism and martial traditions, there are strong similarities in some very basic concepts of satori being of the moment asTaoist insight is of the moment. Now I am not one of those who say that Zen is some sort of "cheap" Japanese knock-off and culturally reworked copy. I concider that an extremest view. The legitimate synthesis of Buddhist and Taoist concepts has been denied most furvently by those who would have Japanese Zen held up as a singular practice and understanding of the nature of our world as their's alone. But that would be similar to saying Japanese characters (or written language)- have no basis in ancient Chinese characters. There is an historicly traceable connection to these deep similarities. Even the Court manners of Emperial China can be seen in much of what became Japanese culture. For my generation D.T. Sazuki was held as the foremost purvayor of Zen thought and it was he who introduced Zen to many in the west -much as Bodidarma brought the Buddhist doctrines to China. He too allows for these historical morphs. I for one give Japanese historians little credance for historical accuracy. There is a pronounced distortion of fact all too often when China is involved. The Japanese deny China's deep and lasting influence. They work very hard to make themselves out to be the superior culture, while at the same time denying their own short-commings. The denial of the heinous rape of Nanking is the best known example of this sort of attitude. They revile the Chinese and yet time and again act scared and jealous of their huge and powerful neighbor. The Japanese have little in their culture that did not come from the mainland and was then transformed into a singularly Japanese way and style. They worked and still work very hard at creating these diferences. There is a sort of genious in this ability to transform artforms and practices into what would appear to be strictly Japanese. Kabuki and Noh theater seem to be entirely Japanese and certainly have become so ...lacquer-carving which originated in Burma is often claimed as Japanese. the famed culture of Zen archery has strong similarities to Taoist martial practices, and seems to me to have little connection to Buddhist martial tradition but in this I admit ignorence of very early martial practices of Buddhist monks. I do know more about Taoist martial traditions and they are similar to Zen archery practices and also traditions found in Aikido. There is a Zen Koan or anecdote that illustrates my point. One day Hyakujo and his master Baso saw a flight of wild geese rise from a lake. Baso asked 'Where are they flying?" "They have already flown away master." Baso grabbed Hyakujo's nose. Baso said" You say they have flown away, but they have all been here from the beginning." The "formless" origin is inaccessible and inconceivible if one only accepts the concrete form as real. To claim the here and now as the only reality is missing the true nature of the thing, the history is a part of the things "isness"... Zen may have taken wing and flown its own way but it still remains by the lake-side as one part of Taoism's future as a part of Buddhism..

Dear Cloud and others - I seem to be getting these threads confused in my mind between the 32 signs of the Buddha and the Baghwan-bashing. I think I've trashed every proponent of faith-based sexual initiatives and get-over guru I know of... And it may be that I've been coming at this from the wrong direction. I should keep in mind that the basis for all human actions are still pretty basic -if not base, and that is the common-ground level from which I seek for a way to allow my spirit to take wing. If I do not give these gurus and masters and teachers the same slack I give myself, I'm being unfair to our shared humanity. I am not sure I could avoid taking advantage of fawning, attentive and attractive "followers". I would like to think I can control my more base needs and proclivities as I will myself to be the best person I can be at all times... but I know this is not the case. We can only expect our mentors and guides to be human-nothing more. We each know how difficult it is to be the best we can be at any given time/space coordinate. So I think I will back off some here and now to reflect on my own mishandling of the love and devotion I have been blessed with. But I do want to answer a question in another thread first- Peace-

I think it would be pretty impertinant to refute someone's stated experience unless there were some axe-grinding alterior motive that could be shown. The case histories of holy men and priests being horny devils that abuse the trust of those who look to them for guidence is long, sorded and rampant in just about every religion, cult or spiritual path I have heard of. And as Sean has pointed out the abuse and harm of teachers by students is a real problem as well. The holiest ground is still trod on by men, who are what we all are. Horn-dogs one and all! Short of castration, and old age there are few techniques that work 24/7 and fewer practicioners who can keep it in their pants for very long anyway without the help of medications or herbal inhibitors. Nature is more powerful than human will often enough to keep us humble and honest. We want to have sex. A Lot. These urges are surely observable and tamable but they are very hard to extinguish. That a supposed teacher of any philosophy, class or course of study would use that position of power to get laid and worse - make the human-being they so seduce sexually, a "disposible" sexual object and thus also undermine their own self-respect and direction as a Spiritual being is totally reprehensible. But that being said, if the system this happens in -like the Catholic church or the Ragneesh cult allows this sort of behavior -even supports it with cover-ups and lies...The system is the prblem. I do not think a system need remain stagnent and be held accountable for past practices if these are allowed to be exposed and then excorsized from the accepted norm. So far on this thread, we haven't gotten a very concrete look at the current state of "affairs" , which I think would be of some help at this point. Also we sure have drifted far off the 32 signs topic...I think I for one am also confusing the Bagwan Bashing thread with this thread in my mind and additions -sorry 'bout that!

Hi There Cloud, Now that we've tendered everything from 3 or 4 kinds of wine to bubbles up the arse and ganja, what do you think you will do? Probobly you've alraedy eased off the chocalate some huh? Some is good for ya so don't jones it... Most of us have heard that a cleaner system is as easy as more water and garlic and ginger and fresh fruit and veggies (and maybe some wine too)... so PLEASE don't worry about it so as to worsen the situation. Worry and stress are about the crumbiest states you can put yr self through...the herb thing sounds great too! But the stress of being busted makes it counter-productive for me since I have a high-profile in my community...Too bad... it is a good thing and should be made legal everywhere.-Which is my public opinion too. I tell all my old friends to stay limber! at our age it is important... Peace

We are mostly looking at the roots of the system and how it first developed from the Bodidarma bringing the relativly new ideas of Buddhism to the long-standing Taoist philosophers already going strong in China... And then how Zen manifested and eventually became its own sect sometime afterwards -(and found its strongest base in Japan). The different strengths and concepts have been touched on but we haven't really gotten into how these three systems developed into today's seperate manifestations either apart and or together until yr entry. What is currently thought of as Zen is not a stand-alone entity but developed from a mingling of past influences that certainly had Taoism among them. This being the more mystical rather than the later Confucian ideas, (Here you and I differ)- but they couldn't have predated the Bodidarmas influence on Buddhist thought. They didn't enter the picture - until his contact with the Chinese. As you have pointed out, & they had their own slant as it were... We haven't yet gotten to the VERY strong Japanese teachers of Zen... Which had probably more influence on todays Zen than did the ancients. Still, there are some poets like Han Shan, who have been tendered as proponents of both Buddhist and Taoist imagry and content.

I like that, soft/hard approaches to the center of one's being... It may be a cultural thing also- whereas Taoist Monks had to be warriors as well as practicioners of meditation... perhaps Buddhism developed in somewhat more peaceful times or places...Or the warrior class protected the monks...

I believe yr right in that, sex/reproduction differentiation... but sex as one instance of the world's ways had to be part of what the early Gnostic's saw as the "problem"... 'cause even if they had some means of preventing pregnancy, it was "worldly".... I have no idea how seriously this worldlyness thing was taken, as everything one can physically do may be construed of as worldly... So it may be that the concept of "uniting sparks" got around that way of thinking with later Gnostics... As the lure of free-wheeling and open sexuality took wings in the Simon Magnus group... Those folks seem to be the proto-hippies of history! Refuting social convention and living in an open communal way... Even if back then it seems most social organization was pretty-much what we would think of as "communal". In any case the Gnostic's credo demanded proof of any sollution or proscription, to offer some way of "knowing" not just believing, so the reasoning that went into the various ideas that they held must have been pretty interesting... Getting around the many parodoxes they entertained could not have been easy.

As far back as Fu Hsi (Foo She), who was a very ancient Emporer of China, about 2200 years before Lao Tze, and therefore the true start to the practice of the Tao -the way...anyway back in almost prehistoric China... a mystical tradition was being developed. Burning tortoise shells and reading the cracks that developed was the start that led to the Ba Gua or 8 "sections" that became the basis for both Feng Shui and the Yi Jing... All very mystical and relating to the spirit world. Then 2200 years until Lao Tze is credited with the formation of a "classic" Taoism of philosophy with a sort of organized religious quality. Then not so long after 100 years or so circa 500BC, Confucius got involved in Taoism Itwas the Bodidarma who sought to bring Buddhism to China -Circa 500 AD and his words got added into Taoist teachings, or vice-versa to become what we now know of as Zen...Very Mystical and quiet and internal....Which the Japanese brought to fruition to a large extent. Again a history of individuals who had a drive to spread the word... as in almost all religions and philosophies...So the roots of Zen are more Buddhist than Taoist only in it is considered more a sect of Buddhism than Taoism...But I think it may be close to the original Taoism in its mysticism as well... Any ideas about this out there...?

Hi again Cloud, Glad ya liked that riff on Biblical fundamentalism's flaws... My possitive tilt toward Gnostic truth has become more a feeling than a memory of facts so I decided to go back and see what I could dig up- I remembered that I have a wonderful book called The Gnostics by Jacques Lacarriere, so I began to look through it and I realized/remember why I admire the Gnostics! ("Those who know") Basically they held truth and knowledge as the basis for adherence to doctrine rather than belief or faith -(which is part of my favorite Taoist quote!) Their most profound idea (to me) is that the whole of the universe is a big mistake and the ONLY truth we can trust is that spark of spirit and Godliness that we each hold deep within ourselves! They tended to scandalize their contemporaries with unorthodox paths in order to cast off the shackles of the world that held man's spirit captive in the mainstream of the big cosmic mistake... There was a belief that the sky held the answer and that the serpent/draco constellation that curled/s around the pole star held the secrets of inner growth. They strove to be lean and wary of the world's wicked ways. To find a truth beyond the material, as all of the visible universe was part of the mistake and disgrace! But matter held both repulsion and fascination. Cold and immobility were very dangerous to the earliest adherents. Time itself a condition of damnation pertaining to matter...We are living in an inherently evil sphere of the cosmos and we must do everything we can to counteract it's ways! Sexuality was a complete abomination as propagation of life just added to the problematic sphere of evil...The alienation of man is global etc...Basically we live as part of a huge error in judgement and must be reactive against it's matterial structure. Some pretty difficult concepts. For them their "native land" was not terrestial but in the heavens from which they came...From a world beyond Sirius (the star)... The True God having taken pity on mankind - allows the spark within to be recognized and nurtured...So suicide which may have seemed a likely reaction, was also rejected. It is the struggle against the wicked ways of our world that leads to redemption and back to the grace found (beyond Serius!)... And once again something I relate to- that the eye holds a window into this place where the spark resides. The pupil of the eye- something I hold to be pretty accurate. The basic truth found in Gnostic teachings is that there is truth to be found in all philosophies but each is mostly flawed and discardible...The great aim of Gnostics is to reject and expose dogma and doctrain as stupid and useless. The only tie to Christianity seems to be that early Gnostics took the Old Testament and other Hebrew writtings to be the foundation of recieved knowledge, and then rejected it! Historicly there seems to be little in early Gnosticism, but some few adherent's borrowing from the gospels, and it's timing as a system coming out of the same general area as early Christianity. to link it with Christianity. Somewhat a nominal sect of historicly Judaic foundations as was Christianity... Simon Magus is thought to be the first great teacher of the Gnostics. He traveled with a woman named Helen (about 17 years after the death of Christ) on the paths and roads, one of many among so many other messiahs and mystics, Christian Apostles, et al... Simon Magus had read the "old testiment" and found the God of the Jews to be such a hard-ass -always making life a trial for men - that "Jehovah" could NOT be the true God of creation since he seemed to thwart mankind whenever he could! But dispite Jehovah's tampering man had the spark left from the True God to look to for guidence... So, the imprint of the "real world" is within us. Man's spirit is not born immortal but can be "taught" to become so if the spark within is tended to... Magus also taught that to make love was to confound the confusion of the world. Desire's fulfillment was a basic practice and some early followers of Simon and Helen were believed to practice "free love" among themselves... Even then a not so Christian idea...In the promiscuity of men and women lies the true communion...In order to reassemble the scattered sparks within us. Which here confuses me if sexuality is a promotion of the evil?! So already there are sects within the sect. But I need to get back to work - I'll keep this in mind though and come back to it later on...

I've said a fair bit about the lack of faith I put in the church vs the amount of faith I do put in the Buddhist-based teachings of Christ. But the Bible as instructional book is just out-dated in some ways this is my favorite riff on that... Laura Schlessinger recently, said that for an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them. a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan... This is off of the Gnostic thread which I may come back to as this seems a very popular thread and there is a very interesting story to the Gnostic sect's history...

Since I already contributed a humorous thread on penises (and there are a few here to choose from), I thought my 2cents worth would fit on this thread... Vaginal sex with someone you want to make happy several times a week and not striving for your orgasm or even fore-going your orgasm will build your stamina and it is said to enlarge your erect penis's size as well. I would say this is the case. I was blessed with having been in high-school from 1968-1972... sex was a very safe and popular activity. Many if not most young ladies in NYC were on the pill and there were few sexually transmited deseases compared to today. And none were thought of as deadly.There was "penis-illin" available at clinics to dose the "clap" our most dreaded fear back then...Few used a "rubber"...Fluids were freely swapped, which is a very healthy practice when safe and healthy precautions are seen to. I read of Taoist love making techniques even back then "The Tao of Loving" was available in book stores. I still have my copy from those wonderous days of free love...Most Taoist techniques can be found there and used, once ya get past some of the language being a bit obscure.... So find somebody to love and try to keep her happy and watch that thing take shape. And please ease up on the stress factor for yrself! love is the key to sex not the packaage you deliver. Get to know the one you love and what makes her happy and then make her happy. Everything else means less and less and soon real bliss is being shared often and wonderfully ...

Thanks for your supportive kindness! Linkage from my site is important to me. It is a big part of the concept of being "one with all"... I'll keep adding sites as I find them so feel free to suggest a few of your favorites via email on the site...(or my site to other sites too of course!) I rarely seek or ask for linkage as it seems to be pretty time-consuming, but I guess I should do so more often...So, what about it Sean? Tao Bums are up 2xs on my sites' links pages... I'll add ya to general web sites and offer a three for one! (sorry off thread again)-so remember- The power of communication is needed to transmit the power of thought... thanks again-Pat

Hey great ! Then as one of the new and improved models, much sought after by the modern -porn-lovin'- woman...Do your duty beggetting more shlong-slingin' "white" babies. Yes indeedy-go improve the membership of our race! By the by don't be so very sure that you're all white bro... Recent genetic studies have shown most of us, at least in America's "melting pot" who are seemingly from European, or African, or Asian or native American ancestry have much more mixed blood than once believed.

I think you mean the magnetic field-not garavitation being flipped-& yes the solar winds would have a window to blast the planet with an on-slaught of radiation, which may be benign, if it is REALLY quick- or quite dangerous to all life... if maybe not the tardigrade, which is the most likely candidate to survive such an onslaught ... I should think that 10' necks would be of little use and not get much regard in the natural selection process... What seems a bit more likely is that with so many women now watching porn (in the western world) it may be they will reject men with normal sized penises and produce a new breed of males with 10" schlongs to carry on the white race, or perhaps try sex with our dark-skinned brethren who are already said to be so equiped, Conversly as Americans realize that the intellectual capacities of our Asian brethren are mighty well developed, women will go for them instead of us lazier white guys... And dingus be damned... or some combo that will just keep us on the path to racial harmony and multi-sized members... But I guess that is already happining as we naturally go about selecting mates and producing an intermingled human race . And this, with the side boon of driving racist and narrow-minded bigots bonkers with how natural selection tends to leave the stupidest individuals to mate with each other, eventually creating a back-ward inbred group of reduced capacity and importance - and behold-the yahooing red-neck, a dieing breed with little future to hope for. So praise the lord's intelligence for thinking-up natural selection to glean out the impurities found in bad genes that create ignorant and loutish brutes...Its taken a few hundred thousand years but the human race is shaping up nicely...