-O-

That's a good point and something we wouldn't have to wait until an investigation is done. How'bout it tongue? Any links to some of your work?

<deleted mental vomit>

I'm curious because the story of Max hiding from Jenny sounds allot like the story of Jon Chang hiding from his American Student (can't find the reference)... wouldn't be surprised if it is all a reverse troll. Not saying it is - but I have my suspicions. Who knows he could come back with all sorts of documentation or just a "It's all verified!!"

Update? ...or maybe the seminar you where attending was a little closer to the topic at hand... ?

5ET is not the only one to notice this... The last few generations have been labelled folks with an "entitlement" attitude. The business community has found this too. Youngins right out of school expect to sit around the table with the president, and like the Universe they prize results over, in their case, experience... I believe this generations thinking is... "if I'm capable of doing it - what does my age have to do with anything"... And allot of business leaders are giving them the chance to the chagrin of other senior and middle managers and guess what they find.... allot of cases they are capable in spite of their age. A couple years ago I worked with a company who handed and entire busines unit over to a 22 year old who had been out of business school for only three months. They gave her a Senior VP role to the dismay of allot of people who had built a sucessful track record for a couple decades to get to that level... guess what, she succeeded where three other, very senior business managers had failed miserably before her. I don't think the issue is really TV, internet, mobile devices, so much as it is access to more information than any other generation before it. And with that information comes choices (think Futureshock). So what might appear as irresponsible, lazy, and disrespectful might be due to the fact that you are not the only teacher they are "interviewing" and that interviewing is an act of taking responsibility for their decision... something previous generations have had a hard time with. I think teachers need to ebb and flow with the times - that is only natural to the Tao. I think the days of students gobbling up what teacher says just because teacher says it are coming to an end. I think the idea of having to suffer as a nessecity is a little skewed. We have to work hard, yes and no one can do the work for you... but where is the logic in - the more suffering you have endured entitles you to more respect.... Like 5ET says the Universe doesn't care about excuses... and the idea that one has to suffered lots to earned the right is another form of excuse because their suffering might have nothing to do with the result which that person has produced. The whole argument for why these students are not worth teaching could be reversed and be said that a teacher who is not willing to adapt (or draw knee jerk generalizations about an entire generation) is not worht studying with. I think we must keep in mind the teaching structure in place re these spiritual practices are highly traditional, based on a history of an entirely different culture. And this occasionally begs the question... is it really the appropriate way to teach in this culture?

What is "raising K in warriors"?

I'm confused Kate.... you suggest that pretty much all systems do what I have suggested (and that suggests that you agree with my statement)... but I am "bad" for pointing it out?

I guess the drama has died down now that the seminar has started?

I'm a little younger than mid-60's but old enough now to look back at the unfolding of my life's choices and feel the prang of regret... but I didn't sing someone else's song. I did follow my heart. When I wanted to travel I would. When I had a passion that inspired me to follow it - I did. I've drunk opiate tea and road a speed boat from Vein Veigh to Lounprabang. I've been robbed and left penniless with no flight home in Cambodia. I've blown out a hip and spent 10 days alone in the middle of the Canadian Rockies. I lived for three months in a primitive hut lighting my fires with bow and hand drills bathing in ponds....(and the list does go on.) Most would say I have lived. But I do look back and regret. I regret not being more disciplined. Not considering my choices more thoroughly. Regret not having built a better foundation for myself when I was younger so that the family which came later had more security. I find myself coaching my daughter out of the types of choices that I have made myself.... But it has dawned on me that the feelings I am having aren't really about regretting to choices I have made as much as a feeling of loss due to a particular shift in my relationship with life. Back then, through all those bad decisions I was a young man who was out creating the life I was about to live - becoming the man I would be, and now I am an older man living the life which I have created - become the man of those decisions. The prangs of regret we feel may not be regrets of our decisions as much as it is the feeling that life's path is now set in stone.... I'd say becoming the cowboy might be just the thing needed to shift back to creating the life you are bound to live. In fact I might even say it is necessary.

Had an entertaining thought the other day... truth versus computer science... In my profession I deal with programmers and in a conversation about good code versus bad code the idea of "loose coupling" up. Loose coupling, I was told is when a bit of processing code has "no knowledge" of what it is processing or the context of it.... example.... I write a bit of code to make the home button on my webpage light up. That code could be something like this...."If mouse is over HOME then light up HOME if not the dim HOME". However this bit of code is "tightly coupled" and bad code. What makes it tightly coupled is the reference to HOME... my bit of code has knowledge of what it is affecting that knowledge is the direct reference to the HOME button... .. so a loosely coupled example would be "For [bUTTON = THIS] if mouse is over THIS then light up THIS if not then dim THIS" What makes this code better is I can now use this bit of processing for anything that I want to light up when the mouse is over it....... The other thing that indicates good code is how it is organized. If you have a bunch of bit of processing like the examples above then these things are grouped together by different methods.... say with the above example we put all of the bit of code together that handled all of the functions for our buttons into one file... well this would be "coincidental Cohesion"... if we put our bit of code with all the other bits which light things up and dim things down then this would be "logical cohesion" the best cohesion is when bits of code which accept the same input in the same place.... this make sense when you are debugging or extending the code... because well if you are tracking down a specific error it will have to do with a specific bit of data... so it stands to reason that if all of your bits of processing which affect that bit of data are in the same place then you will find your error quicker.... (smart folks those computer guys) In academia the pursuit of truth or the accuracy in testing a truth come down to "Correspondence and Cohesion" Correspondence being that your theory of explanation directly references something in the world or state of affairs you are referring to... Simple enough, if I say "sky" my reference to sky is the thing above our heads - it corresponds to that item or attribute etc..... So in this regard Truth is "Tightly coupled" Cohesion refers to how well the theory comprehends all relevant information.. essentially how complete the explanation is.... and this is a tough one because we can never know all of the data involved unless we are say god... so this one is a bit of a sliding scale. So with this background an interesting idea came to mind.... what makes for good code also makes for good BS. If you have a theory which is loosely coupled then you can take that bit of theory and apply it all over the place. Then this applicability gives the appearance of Cohesion... of completeness... Anyway, I think the uneducated sceptics are not really sceptics as much as they are close minded (fearful) people who justify their aversion to differing views than their own with sceptical arguments. I think healthily skeptisism is the type which brings up questions which can then be new avenues of learning... sort of a -we're missing something over here. If we understand what is missing in our explanation then we have a good idea of what questions to ask, where to put our attention; essentially gain clarity on, and set the direction for, the next exploration. On the other hand without doing this our explanations may have nothing at all to do with the things we are trying to understand (they might be loosely coupled) and those beliefs might have more to do what we are wanting to hear or wanting to avoid hearing.... and to me that is a worse place to be than the dunce cap sceptic. At least the sceptic an gain a clue on their motive... the clue being the topic they are disbelieving.... the foundationless belief IMHO is well- blind.

Nice to see you around again Win

No but a stack of other things... the full strike is the same as the death experience he talks about, heart stops breathing stops... see the face of god and all that... On that note.... shortly after completing TB myself I took some downtime from the practices and had just returned home from staying a week at Max's. I went through a series of strange experiences, nothing like going invisible (been there done that :-) re the colonel)... I kept reflecting on the TB and the few things that I thought could be done differently. Particularly regarding keeping awareness in the present moment rather than visualizing... Anyway during this process there were moments where I felt I was in two moments of time and shifted between key moments. And at each shift specific information about mediation would become clear... even to this day, regardless of how my opinions regarding this may have changed - it is how I experienced it. At one point I remember standing at the fax machine sending a fax out to someone and at the same time being at the other end while the fax was being received six weeks prior.... and have the piece of paper in my hand when everything normalized..... Anyway the end result was a different way of thunderbreathing, or that is how I thought of it. I sheepishly and apologetically sent it to Max (because who the hell am I to question 36,000 years of development)... anyway he responded saying "good homework" and forwarded a detailed instruction on a different, Buddhist method of which I had hammered down about 90% of it accurately... nothing was wrong per sa it was just a bit incomplete.... well hell what a great result right! I time shifted my way into the Awakening Vajra! Wrong! There is still nothing usefully in any of the extraordinary experiences of that strange sequence of events.... what was useful was the information regarding the method - the rest was form given to incoming information.... the rest is, well, just story. Coming to terms with that allowed me to really get grounded around the practices and to really get beyond the nonsense of all of these abilities. They are just that, nonsense, a distraction where the pursuit and interest in them causes more harm than good - where the information is lost in favour of the form. I am nobody, but I can see how promoting these things to your students is not only pointless but is self defeating and harmful..... my question is why can't he?

Exactly right IMO. There are more to these stories and their ramifications then "just put up or shut up". I think most believe that if they were to witness or even experience these things first hand then any doubt of the possibility would dissolve.... it doesn't. Other questions emerge as one dives deeper into Mind's subtly and for that matter the Mind's complete disregard for "reality"... questions like - "did that really happen or am I just remembering it that way....?" So this in mind - the anecdotal "evidence" and the goal of acquiring "direct experience" regarding powers serves no substantial purpose and is detrimental. To talk about this stuff with someone who hasn't had experience with it teases their interest, it whets the appetite , sets expectation, encourages the abandonment of judgement skills which are already in place (like critical reasoning being surrendered for "belief is my only limitation" etc). It distracts the students focus from what the real goal should be.... which later has them focusing on events/experiences which are dead ends... Anyone involved in Max's teachings know that at some point an instability will occur - the dark night - the facing your realities etc.... So...some students fly off into worlds of lizard kings and sorcerers and are labelled "instable" and having a hard time with their own projections.... however what has initially disarmed them and planted the contextual seed for their nonsense began and is propagated by Max in the first place - precisely with these stories. When asked why he does it the response is to "help people be more accepting of their possibilities"... but I think what is under that is an assumption that if these stories are not alluded then people will not find as much significance to the teachings.... ity would be weighed with the same significance as the Tuesday night tai chi class at the local library... the lack of significance in their opinion could be seen as not "accepting" I guess. Max and prol'ly allot of teachers are passionate about what they do... I mean in a childlike "look how f'n cool this is" sort of way. And this passion is quite relentless. IME you will not have many conversations with max which will not in some way come back to this. This has a negative effect to the two extreme types of students - the ones that have issues and a propensity for fantasy and the one which share the depth of passion he does and are the most dedicated. For them these stories set the mind up for either escape into deeper fantasy or to latch onto him.... then when it goes south the student is blamed. The rest of the student body has a varying degree of either disbelief (a grain of salt) or a disinterest and are less affected... but at the end of the day the people that are hurt by or pissed off by max are there by his participation as well as their own. I have seen students take responsibility but I still have yet to see the teacher step up. I believe the stories are told born of insecurity, born of a need for attention/affection. Insecurity in the context that people might not see just how wonderful and important this stuff really is.... maybe if they had a story or two about a rude awakening - or saw a photo of a cloud cloaked ship then their mind will open up... born of attention/affection well ask yourself as a friend of max (because you'r sfriends right? not teacher and student...) how many conversations have you had that didn't broach the subject... it's not many I bet and they are fun and interesting conversations. His enthusiasm is contagious. I get the argument that if you make the claim then back it up.... but I also get the- sharing your own experience and the right to choose not to scramble up your life with groupies and detractors.... I don't get, not being able to see the impact that these claims have, and how irrelevant they are to goal of teaching. It serves no adequate purpose for a student until they are on the verge of or have begun to experience these things for themselves... prior to that there is no context in their experience to relate to the information in a constructive manner.

duplicate... not sure what happened???

duplicate

duplicate

Many many moons ago (around '97) max, during a small lecture in his home ,"juggled" a few balls during a lecture... meaing he lifted and manipulated these balls in the air, with his mind. It caused such a stir and ruckus that he swore he would never do it again. Ruckus as in, students attaching too much, people seeking him out to see him do it, students and friends asking to see a demonstration. People calling him at all hours asking for interviews etc... The "demo" was not a show of power as much as demonstrating the point he was making during the lecture... apparently nobody got the point... the demonstration got in the way of the lesson. IMHO there is no doubt of his abilities.... and it is the one of the only system which can say they have a student which has or can attain what the teacher has... Kan... but can is not the first in this regard. During the Bonpo days there were one or two that had a "complete strike" re Thunderbreathing...

An amusing thought... there are those who believe that folks like us who are attracted to such practices do so due to a stunted maturity regarding the consequneces of our choices. Specifically we categorizes our "suffering" as illness, devolution... something inherently off or flawed within us which then needs repair... the solution being these practices when in actuality it is a failure to assume the consequences of choices as our own.... so if these folks are right then wouldn't it stand to reason that such a comment would then be very helpful to our ilk? ...even revolutionary?

I've been refraining... but oh well here I go... Tongue: I was interested in what you had to say until you made allusions to CIA friendships and claiming torus is Max (Hi Chad!). This doesn't mean your experience is invalid or whatever - I don't know you haven't validated them. RE: the He said she said and agenda's I think a person can have a high value on "truth" and revealing truth without that being a personal agenda against the community of its leaders. On the same note a person can refute a detractor without it meaning they are a groupie... on both sides I see this happening. There are students that find things "don't add up" this doesn't mean they are "not facing their realities", are projecting their issues etc. I mean we are adults (most of us) and I think for those who have questioned either Max or the community have had experiences similar to what tongue is leading to (or at least what I anticipate he is). ... and there are those where these questions are irrelevant and have never been in a position to be treated differently than any other person in good standing... that being said the "I know Max, this isn't true" really wouldn't hold water and vice versa. So I think we could leave a little room in our thinking for other peoples' experience being different than our own. I personally have found Max to be very generous not only in his teachings but just as a person; I found him to be very passionate about his interests and that passion is contagious. He is a nice man. I have also found him to avoid confrontation for long periods and then over compensate when the confrontation can no longer be avoided. I have found him to triangulate with in his relationships and he makes friends and dates from within his student pool (which inevitably is a precarious thing to do). I think he has surrounded himself with relationships in where the imbalance of power inherent to teacher/student relationships have allowed him to stay in a very safe place, where if ever confronted he can simply cut ties with the person. It is my belief that this has prevented him from growing as a teacher and community leader. I the times when there have been troubled waters amongst the student body and the noise of detractors gets louder and closer to home, his approach has been to re-evaluate the teachings. Which has lead to better, stronger, more effective techniques - but also allowed him to avoid where the source of these problems are.... in how he establishes the relationships with his students.... one example of this is to say "I am not a teacher, think of me like family of a friend".... I also found that he doesn't establish what is expected, or what the boundaries of these relationships are with the students until they have "acted inappropriately".... then avoids it for a long period time, then swats flies with a hammer.... so be it. I'm sure we have all met a person or two like this..... Tongue I have been a detractor.... I have "pointed the gnarly finger". But it is not from a place of "I'm gonna take them down" it is from a place of caring and a sense of responsibility that if I see something effecting people I care about then I have a responsibility to speak up; even if that puts the relationship at stake... I'm not sure your intentions are as sincere. From that I'm a bit conflicted because I am interested in a few points that you have raised but at the same time put off with the "CIA"..."torus is max" crap. Try a little more journalistic professionalism applied to your new hobby and you may find that you can make a real and substantial contribution.

(DNA, Ultraviolet, black holes, cellular cascades and most content in the marketing etc. etc. are all pre-chris - now I go away)

YIKES!

This is a great question and topic! I have struggled with "just what have a gained from all of this" as well as having to admit "false cause" for allot of benefits that I attributed to the benefits of meditation. I spend the better part of 12 years (in the last twenty) with a main focuss and dedication to mediation. What I mean by this is meditation was my life's purpose. That is how I felt about it. When I look back at the last 20 years and assess the changes in myself and my life I would say roughly about 5% of the growth which I have come to (kicking and screaming the whole way) I can directly attribute to meditation - about 15% is undecided and the remaining growth I feel comes from simply standing up the challenges of life in a real way.... however this same question 10 or even 4 years ago I would have said 70% of the growth was due to meditation. Well, what changed that assessment? I stopped practicing. And found that I had gained as much growth, as quickly through my marriage, through being a parent and in business. I also noticed how much wisdom there is in people who have never practiced a day in their life which I assumed could only come from developing awareness. I some cases I've met people that had more insight into lfe, mind, self than anyone I've met from a spiritual context.... The one thing that stands out is the absolute changes in my thinking and being which have come from in some cases a 20 minute conversation which didn't occur in a spiritual context. When I review my world view and awareness now I can attibute more change (positive change) from those conversations than anything I have gained from meditation. Obviously this caused a bit of a "crisis of faith". However, the 5% growth from meditation was crucial for about half of all the other growth. I don't think that I HAD to meditate to access that growth as I've seen others come to similar places through other contexts (like, school, carreer, family etc.)... just for me it came through meditation. When I look back now I do have one regret. It is the amount of time and dedication I put into meditation which had been taken from other things, like carreer, family, friends etc. And allot of time was lost due to decisions I had made which were rationalised on a spiritual basis. In the end was just nonsense. That lost time, being somewhat isolated from others (either metally of physically), spent in my mind or heart; in dealing with the consequences of "spiritual" decisions etc is where I feel a loss.That is not to say that I think I wasted my time, nor to imply that I spent that time holed up somewhere meditating. My opinion now, if I had approached meditation like an adjunct to my life, like a hobby, or a personal interest and not a sole - primary focuss I think I would have benefited more both spiritually and pragmatically. In fact I have learned as much about self, nature, self-discipline and have found as much fullfillment in other "hobbies" as I have from spiritual practice. IMO I think if you a the type of person who is interested in meditation then you are most likely interested in growth itself, or the nature of things etc.... and this in itself opens you up to grow awareness in those areas. Meditation is just one context or vehicle which it can be gained... but so is fishing, or hiking or cooking if in your heart your are the type.

pot, kettle, black.... On another note: I like gurgeiff and remember somewhere about a comment he made regarding practices which focuss on the breath which can be damaging (I think) to the diaphram and heart with less result across the population of practitioners, but the practices became popular because of the ease of teaching and simplicity of explaining the practice... can anyone confirm? Over the years I've tried to find that quote, but I believe it is out of one of the books which I gave away (gotta stop doing that). When I began - (taught by Max - but it was still Yi gong - before the additions and before Kunlun ) I was relieved, physically and mentally to not have a breath based practice... so gurgeiff's comments resonanted with me.