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I think all these lights came from inside your head according to what you believed. Only you can become enlightened so that you can become the observer.

12 hours non stop? Are we talking meditation or sex? If you are talking the latter i find it difficult to believe and undesirable to even want. Are you taking some kind of medicine or is something wrong with you?

I think the pain you are feeling is the pressure that is being used to unblock the blockage. If you continue practice the blockage will resolve it's self, you will only need to put up with the pain for a few days. There are so many techniques you have listed that i have not even heard of, i'm sure they are all very good, yet for you to practice so many at an early stage means too much mind activity. Go with one you like best and continue on that path, don't always switch and change, they will all reach the same goal. That is the best advice you would ever be given i feel, since every path has it's ways to overcome the weaknesses and obstacles of that path, is to follow the path you like best and keep to it until you can deicde for yourself what you should do and you don't need to ask others opinions. The need to ask others implies you don't know, when you know you will be on the home run.

I have only read the last post but i think that anything that can be gained by horse stance can be gained by tai chi. Keep your knees bent and strengthen your legs. Get the chi, blood and mind down to your legs and away from your head. Tai chi is the horse stance in movement.

Damn straight!

Nature is taking it's course the whole time. If the mother doesn't want the baby it is nature also. Nature provides the tools. Nature is nasty. i have a chicken with a broken leg and all the other hens in the flock peck it's feathers out. I feel nature is nasty. That is the way of nature.

I see value in that. I just usually go about it the other way. Bump under my right foot big toe, must be something wrong on the right side of my body, upper part near my head or neck according to body/feet relationship. Look in more deeply and play around with the energy there find out what is wrong and feel it relax / go back to how it should. Then i watch in the future to see when and what makes it go back to that wrong unrelaxed state and causes the pain in my foot again. Then i just try to change the way i react in that circumstance or try to avoid it completely.....if i can. Pretty much just examine it like you do and try to find a way through.

First thankyou everyone for your replies, they have been very insightful. Just on a side note i hear cod liver oil (not just fish oil) is excellent for slowing the onset of dementia. People tell me that when they remember to take it then they will know it's working Definately yes, there is a big round circle where i have just drawn a line. Perhaps it is just me because i am naturally this way (I was a software engineer). How do you find the expectations of people that approach you for healings? I know before when i was sick i just wanted to get fixed. I know i didn't want to spend $45 or so for a healing session just to beat around the bush when i knew my money was running out and i wanted to get better quick so i could get back to work. It was only when i tried nearly every single option and there was no quick fix that i had no other option than taking the path i did and becoming responsible for my own health. First i would say the physical way to stop this would be to put shoes on. I think old people have too many life lessons and so think too much and this prevents them from doing. If you put shoes and a helmet on then skateboard down a hill you can't see the bottom of, i don't think that is getting 'old', it's just getting wiser, a balance of wisdom of age but retaining those big balls of youth. (On a side point Iron Shirt III by Mantak Chia is exactely that, gives you that Go Do, Be Wild, without fear, yet with sense. It cuts your age in half. Keeping yourself grounded and stable then becomes the challenge :-) Interestingly correct yet... mmMMMmmm. I think easily more than 50% of people are unaware of the energetic at all. They use it constantly of course but they aren't aware of it. Opening somebodies eyes to it is not that easy. This depends entirely on your perspective, where your being lies, how you are seated within your body, and how you live your life. ALL the action you speak of i have seen also in the physical. It must be true, the physical is a direct reflection of the energetic. One can not possibly have any more action than the other, they are intrinsically linked. I have heard many times that spirit rules matter, but i always add that spirit must work with matter also. As i posted the energy has a lesser influence on the physical (than the physical upon it's self) is true, likewise as you point out physical has a lesser influence on the energy (as upon it's self), especially if it is ungrounded, yet from the perspective of the regular Joe Blow, who walks in asking for treatment and hasn't even conceived of such things, the physical is where it's at. I have tried to be a perfectionist in the past, and it becomes very boring. Now i regard my knowledge of it kind of like a big brother that gets me out of trouble. It lets me get down and do what i my ego desires with something to fall back on. I'm only 30 so i'm enjoying my ego in my prime. I've been very spiritual before but i know theres plenty of time for that later when life guides me that way and old age grips me by the throat But should the needle not enter the right spot, should the patient not respond to those points, or should the needle fall out when opening the chest for open heart surgury.... There is a reason why anasethics are used, a wooden sword can knock a man down, but you don't take it to war. Refined, clinically trialed, long term tested medicine (even though the idea may be taken from plants). It's still not 100% but there is a reason why they chose to use it, it is more suited to the job at hand. In my opinion neither is light years ahead of the other. I have seen both at work performing miracles. All the miracles i know of were not a balance of east and west, they were at the peak of either end of the scale. Pure arse or pure class I just feel the 6 points on my wrists and have kinda learnt partially my own way since i cut the time with my teacher short because i just wanted to leave China ASAP. Although a still mind (especially grounding) is required no closed eye time is really needed. Sure there are wonderful and great things i have experienced with my eyes closed, things i could never have imagined beforehand, but i see my great grandad sitting in his room alone watching tv most of his life and i think then is my opportunity to see beyond this world, now i should make the most of now. Experienced as you seem in the energetic and spiritual i am sure you are right, but tied to as i am to the physical i see my opinions as they are now well placed. There is a time for everything and i feel i am living for now. I mean in no way to be judgemental, yet i feel you are caught up deeply in the grand scheme of things. Now is now and there is no escaping that fact. You are who you are and there is no escaping that either. If you chose to be 'I' as in the big 'I' then you are that, but at this moment you have the opportunity of being the physical body you have acquired - not through chance. You can and will be the big 'I' forever, but not the you as you are within your body. I feel one should celebrate the you but not forget the 'I'. Balance is always best, but best is not what we always want. There are no rules and there is no right and wrong in the energetic, but there sure is in the physical, and it is measured by advancement towards your aim. You've really made me think, it's taken me a long time and i've REALLY enjoyed making this post. I can even feel your presence somewhat. A few bottles of homebrew where energetically and physically harmed in the making of this too! Thankyou!

Within myself (as i have practiced) i have used these different approaches of what you are talking about. Mainly i see them as active or passive, where pure channeling would be the most passive and clearing/integrating of different energy meridians or organs to create balance the most active. Now i have found the most active to be the most egotistic (not that it's bad) and i can attribute the effect of sensations and healing to me. I have tried to heal it how i thought was best. To me this would be the best way to get patient's respect that you have abilities as a healer. Then the most passive i have found to have the strongest and most effective healing, however the healing hasn't always been where i've intended, say i had a sore finger and by being passive i've found that my sore back that i've had for years feels better but my finger is still no better. Midway between is good, and it sounds like your massage lets you target the areas you want to (active) then you can guide and channel energy into those areas passively to produce good healing effects in the way the patient desires, in the way the patient is paying you to. Do you feel i am right in saying this? I have asked others and wondering too, what your success rate is for something substantial to happen positively to their health? How long did it take, how long do the results normally last for? I guess thats the good thing about massage, even if they aren't "healed" they at least got a massage out of it and feel they didn't just waste their money. I would love to be a healer but i want people to percieve that they got their moneys worth. I don't want people to feel like they wasted their money. Meanwhile i have already done a degree and spent years studying that, now with a family and a mortgage it's a bit hard for me to start studying some type of massage course when i need to make some money. My feeling is that massage is a good way to get the energetic into the physical. Of course the information provided to the patient about what to do, eat, along with a small set of internal and external exercises would provide the main ongoing healing power, but massage gives them a strong push in the right direction and opens up their eyes to the possibilities. Have you seen any non physical practices than can offer a clear percieved benefit to a high percentage of clients? I have also thought of just going for 1 illness like asthma and concentrating on that. It still requires dedication from the client and its not what most ppl want Also, have you ever had any trouble or heard about anybody else having trouble with people trying to sue due to them saying they were ill effected by any treatment? That is a little worry in the back of my mind too. I think with my knowledge of myself both energetically and physically i could probably pick up a decent amount of massage stuff just from dvds and practice on people and understand how what i was doing was effecting them within the framework of my own understanding, however that won't get me insurance, and of course my wifey would kill me if we got sued and we had to live out on the street Thanks, Louis

You say you don't suggest channeling, but how about if you guide and channel. A bit like setting up a waterslide with your own energy, then channeling to blast through with more power? Bit like using accupressure and then channeling energy through. I am very interested in hearing from energetic healers. There is one in my home town and i know a few people who have gone there, me included. My family call him the fish doctor because he does all weird stuff hehe. One girl gets migranes and he fixes them. It lasts for a while until obviously she stresses out too much in some way or another and causes it to happen again. I felt his energy when he passed energy into me but it was much less intense than the energy i can generate within myself, it was interesting though. I wonder if because it came externally i felt it less intensly than doing my own energy work because it is already within me? He put his hand on top of my head, said some things about charkras, and then the energy came in and whizzed around. I guess he channeled because the energy didn't seem to have some clear path, or it didn't seem like there was some clear intention for the energy, it just went every which way and dispersed into different areas. Have you recieved energy from other healers, perhaps people who taught you? How did you percieve this energy according to your own energy? How was it similar/different? Also what do you do while you are having this conversation (i guess it is silent and the other person can't hear it?) with the spirit or energy body of the patient? I definately have faith that this type of thing works, but how do you ground it, how do you get it working in the physical as in physical relief from discomfort? How does the patient percieve you in their healing? Is it usually instantanious or takes some time to take effect? How long does the healing effect usually last for? Lots of questions i know but i am very interested! Thanks, Louis

Yes i feel a prolonged state of mind with no thoughts decreases intelligence too. When i practiced lots it became harder to think. Well, harder to think consciously anyway, i'm sure subconsciously i could still think very well. I actually had to strain my brain (and could feel it tensing) to concentrate and process information as in some complicated converstations. I guess it's like anything, you have to use it or lose it, same with your mind. The more you do the better you get at it. I always over thought when i was young, most likely due to overstudying, and the peace i got in no thought was wonderful. Thats why i think awareness meditation is good because you don't over think, you just think for the normal day to day times when you need to work something out, yet your mind stays sharp because you are remaining aware. I find the information retrieved by using your brain for awareness is actually alot more fruitful than from thinking. Things in your awareness can initiate thinking, but then you are thinking about something you are aware of, here and now, not something way beyond yonder. Thinking becomes grounded and local. Thinking and awareness work together to become USEFUL. I guess it all just comes back down to balance in the end.

I liked your post you sound like you have heaps of experience. Like you said with your mother, she felt a pulling and squeezing in her tumour did you actually intend a push and pull or did you just channel and thats what it came out like? My dad would be a bit of a non believer type but he had a blocked nose and i put 2 thumbs (only because it was easier to from a standing angle) either side of his nose on accupressure points and channeled, i felt quiet alot of energy go through considering i hadn't cultivated energy for a while, and he said his nose actually felt better. I've calmed people down from being angry within 5 seconds just by channeling. I've induced butterflies in girls stomachs and other things too, but the people need to be open to it. Channeling i think is easy because you don't need to know what has to be done you just go into that mode and your body moves and the energy comes out right just as it's needed. However perhaps the person can end up feeling worse because healing has only just began and they feel worse as a result. Accupuncture and accupressure along with massage are good because they involve physical contact and a sure purpose from the healer that shocks the patient a little and makes them feel a good result is possible. The possiblity that they could heal enters their mind. However if you just wave your arms around them changing energy fields they will most likely think that it is a waste of their time and money seeing you and most likely won't get any benefit due to this belief. Another case is if you just wave your hands around but they actually FEEL something without you touching them (of course you lead their mind to the place that they should feel something too to intensify it), then they become very suseptible to healing and a strong placebo effect which helps the healing very strongly because they feel like it is something supernatural, something which they haven't experienced before and so suddenly have very high hopes for the treatment. -all of this is my theory, i haven't much experience healing others so please let me know if you feel i am correct. I would really like to become a part time healer along with my other job, but it seems mind boggling to start. Of course i need to have confidence that i can do it, but for that i need to have experience. Before when i was practiced alot i could change things quiet strongly (in my eye), and some people said they could feel something if i tried to pass chi through them but others couldn't feel anything. Nobodys going to pay money for something they can't feel and can't contribute to what YOU actually did. Whether i can heal them or not they need to feel some benefit after a session or it was a waste of time. They need to feel better so that they will take some herbs you give them and feel inclined to take responsibility for their health. Everyone who has come to me for help wanted to be fixed but wanted me to do it all and of course it doesn't work like that (in whatever i have practiced anyhow). They still wanted to eat and drink what they always did and overstrain themselves in the same way they always had. They thought there body was broken and i was here to fix it. The look on their faces when i suggested it was what they were doing to cause the problem, even after very clearly showing them that there couldn't be any other reason for it, indicated that thats not what they wanted to hear. I think the main thing i want to ask you is, do you routinely get others feeling things inside themselves or sudden improvements in symptoms from every patient? If not, in how much percent of cases? What do you usually rely on, and what have you found the best ways to get the patient to become positive mentally in your ability to heal them. I understand when you get a reputation that helps alot too. One TCM doctor i worked with once could very accurately tell what was wrong with a person and that won alot of people over the line and opened them up to an opportunity to heal from his treatment.

To me unconditional love is the same as non-dualism, i'm not sure what neutrality is, is it the same as non-dualism? You love everything unconditionally, everything is love so there is no comparing differences. However you can still compare because there are different depths of love and intensities. Do you feel the same?

Here is my thought on energetic healing. I haven't done much healing on others but i have heaps of experience on myself. Using myself as a laboratory i've got alot of insight into qigong / food / exercise / mindset as i've practiced it. Exercise and food can be as complex as you want to make them. Although it CAN be an immediate miracle cure, I think energetic healing generally is only temporary because you can fix something up but the persons learned natural responses, eating, lifestyle, and thinking habits can revert energetic healing back to it's pre-healed stage very quickly. (My understanding of energic healing is putting the energy fields within the body back into balance). Days, Weeks, Months, or even just a couple of hours and the energetic can be out of whack again. If it's only been a short term problem then the balancing could be more stable and last a long time, but if it's been a long term problem and a habit or natural respone is deeply ingrained (a phobia for example, or ocd) then the habit of having this reaction needs to be addressed and this is the hardest part. Where the energy is easily changed and altered and solid, using the physical to address the physical is so much more pronounced and effective for healing our physical bodies than anything else. You may be able to more effectively cure some emotional issues that are effecting the physical, and these are valid ways of going 'around' the problem and the problem should be addressed from as many angles as possible because they all support the recovery of the patient, however to most strongly effect the physical, use the physical. This is why western drugs and operations work so well and perform 'miracles' more often than energetic medicine because when you physcially give somebody a new hip, they really do have a new hip, it's not just the old hip working in a new way. For example, when i did lots of qigong it awoke me to tensions and blockages in my body that i didn't even knew existed. There were heaps of them, in my legs, arms, waist, chest, neck, ears, eyes and nose. The chi unblocked these and showed me what it felt like for each blockage to be released and what it meant to be relaxed. When i came out of meditation it wouldn't take long, minutes or hours for them to block up again. Later i learnt how to physically relax the muscle that was causing each blockage, then i didn't need to rely on my level of chi. I believe the physical effects the energetic much more easily and strongly than the energetic effects the physical. I learnt to physically feel the condition of my organs, without even needing to look at their energy. Frequently feeling the pulse on my wrist i learnt to physically feel through my wrist what i felt inside my organs, yet feeling the organs directly gives me the most accurate picture. To me the energy is more like the icing on the cake. If the physical can adjust something between 0 and 10 using integers (full numbers), then the energetic can adjust 2.0 either side of a physical adjustment anywhere along that scale at 0.1 intervals. Energy is more refined and can balance to a higher level, but doesn't have the guts, yin, or same pushing power that the physical has to make big changes. To me energy is the intelligence to show you what needs to be done, it is supporting and nourishing, but it's easier and more effective to attend to the real meat and potatoes of it in the physical. By using the physical i mean physical realisation of tension within the body (energetic blockages that can be found through meditation), and using food (which is physical) and exercise (physical both internal and external) to balance the body. The thing is, all of the theory and understanding is in the realm of energy so you need to be able to understand and interact with the energy so that you can plan things for the physical, plan the way to restore health. The physical is right there infront of you, it's plain and easy to see. Using whatever is at your means to help you is good too though, if you have good energy skills. I have seen others organ energies and felt them within my self, seen auras, etc, but that what at a time when i spent hours of time spent in meditation, time i just don't have, and am not interested in spending in seated meditation any more. Now i meditate throughout my normal activities, blended it into my life so i don't waste lots of time sitting with my eyes shut. I now realise that it is easier to heal by dancing, dancing through life doing different activities and eating different foods i am attracted to that balance me automatically. It is the easiest and best, but we are set in our ways and want to continue to do what is making us ill, even though we know it to be the case. We seek difficulty. That is the difficulty in healing, yourself and others. That is why i feel energetic healing, unless it is regularly applied, is not very effective at fixing long term problems. This is why certain exercises / stretching, foods, and changing your automatic programmed responses to desirable ones are ways that can balance you out while continuing to let you do the things that are bad for you. If some of the healers here can enlighten me to where they feel my understanding is incorrect or what other methods they use to get high success rates i would love to hear them... Cheers, Louis

Has anyone practiced this? I have read a bit about the benefits but it seems like every webpage i read from is quoting off of everyone else and nobody says anything new or any real benefits they've experienced. I did it for a few months on and off and apart from improving my technique didn't really get any benefits. Now more recently i have been practicing more intensely and in more depth, sensing the heart at the same time, and i find it is very grounding. I can feel tendons in my feet and hands how that they connect to each other, and it feels like as i exercise the tendons, it is also clearing dampness out of meridians too. I did it a bit too much the other day though and i felt like i had tendonitis for a couple of days. After some qigong and massage it healed up pretty quick but i will go slower in the future. I am starting to feel the springyness, the stretching and the relaxing but i can't see any real use for this other than inside the technique yet. Maybe a few more months of practice before i see more results. Can anyone else share any experiences?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiLmrTtOuIk This is pretty good.

I learnt a bit of chinese, enough to get around alright, and i lived in China for 2.5 years. The first one year i didn't try too hard to learn anything and learnt nothing. Just being in the environment isn't the answer, you need to work hard and practice. Bit by bit. Learn some words that you use often then practice those, then build up vocab slowly, but you gotta always practice it and recall the words or you forget. Languages are very hard to learn and very easy to forget

I think there is lots of good advice in this board already, and i think you must be pretty good at meditation anyhow because it sounds like you've got a good idea of whats going on and what is working and what isn't. I have some suggestions of my own that i've found to work. I think the main trap you are falling into is that you are trying to use the heat to get rid of the heat. It's a bit like trying to use the mind to get rid of the mind in meditaiton, it doesn't really work too well. To get rid of the heat and get grounded you need to IGNORE the heat, and concentrate on the physical body and sensations. Smells, sounds, feelings. Not feelings of chi or energy but feelings of touch on your skin, or even your organs (if you can feel them), but not their energy, their physical presence. Their weight, let them hang down and when you can feel gravity lightly causing your meat to hang off of your bones, or your organs feel heavy, you feel grounded instantly. Become aware of and concentrate on the physical that is the real trick. The reason why you can feel the heat so well and it comes on so quick is because you have practiced so many hours working with it. Now practice feeling the physical, the yin and then you will be able to do that just as well. Then practice them both together, the energy within the grounded body. But don't rush on to this, get that heavy feeling working just as well as you have got your energy working. It is equally enjoyable as playing with energy, just give it chance Food? Potato works good for me. Even chips, i know they're fatty but they taste good and work! Fruit juice / vege juice too that cools you down lots. Do you drink much alcohol? That heats up my liver and causes heat to rise. I take some herbs sometimes because it combats it but it just lets you practice being more yang when that isn't the answer. The reason to do qigong is to get the effect of the herbs without having any herbs. The wearing no shoes thing is good too. But honestly i think all these things are just pussy footing around when you can correct it from the root. You are meditating after all so you should be going deeper and fixing it from the root. Simply put, don't go playing with energy all day, filling your head and all your thoughts with the energy, the yang, the insubstantial, concentrate more on the substantial, the body, the yin. Of course if you spend all your concentration on the yang you will become yang and out of balance. Everything in balance

I have wanted to teach people qigong but it seems that nobody that has come to me so far has any commitment. None needed for any real benefit. I guess people on this forum are especially keen about taoist practices or they would not be here. So i'm just wondering what sort of time people spend in isolated practice per day and how much time in practice during daily activities. Then i can judge how much i can expect others will commit. Cheers, Louis.

Well just stick to what's working for you. I think it is harder for your body to use the resovoirs of fat as energy instead of getting energy from carbs you eat though.

I don't think that sounds good man. A water fast when your body has no energy and you have chronic fatigue? Why would consuming less food and less energy make you have more energy? You gotta look at your digestion and if thats good eat raw food but if not just cook it. Low carb food means more work for your body and less energy available. I don't know who gave you this idea but it doesn't sound right to me. I suggest resting lots (trying not to read too much), trying to keep your mind quiet by doing awareness meditation throughout your daily activities, gentle exercise and 6 healing sounds 12x each 3x a day. You're probably going to get more fatigued before you get better, but if you're eating a balanced diet and resting lots you know it's impossible that your body is actually getting more fatigued. Any fatigue you would have would be because your body is getting more relaxed so that you can build up your energy stores and your chronic fatigue will go away. Another way you could do it is just do lots of cardio every day, that will give you more energy. May have to push through the fatigue at the start but after a couple of weeks you should have more energy. Don't do heavy weights, thats not gunna help.

Thanks guys. I don't get to jump on the net as much these days so was a bit slow to say thanks. I just want to teach because i love qigong and it just means i can spend more time doing what i love and sharing it with other people. If i can get a little cash out of it too all the better but that's not the main concern. I planned to charge $10 the first class, and if you come to the 2nd class you get your $10 back, just to try get more motivation. I think not many people know what qigong is either so i've only had a couple of people come and they haven't stayed. I'm just doing it at home (put a sign out the front) since i don't want to hire out a place and nobody comes, but i guess because it's not in a centre it doesn't help with getting people interested. I mainly wanted to help unwell people get better but it seems everyone wants a magic pill, even though i explain to them if there was such a magic pill they wouldn't come to me because the doctor would have given it to them already. Now i'm starting to think instead of helping sick people it would be better to target sports people. People always are motivated about their sports and if they think they can improve their performance that might be a better way for me to keep interest. I've even considered going to the local football club and teaching there for free for a couple of classes. I also thought about teaching for free at the rehab centre in my area to help them with withdrawals and maybe to help keep them clean and since they will be bored in there it would be something for them to do and i guess more attendance / practice time, but i'm not sure they're the type of people i want to interest, especially comming around my home when i got a family. I guess if i do it just at the centre it would be ok though. If it was helpful to the people in there maybe the rehab centre would want to pay for classes. Aussies are big drinkers too and alcohol makes progress a bit more difficult too. I guess i just gotta get out there and do it, but when ya work full time and ya spend a little bit of time with ya family there it's pretty much bed time. Full time work sucks balls!

Just wanted to share... when i was teaching in china i had a class where i taught all the kids about xmas. At the end of the class 1 boy came up to me and asked me, 'Is it true in Australia at christmas time all the children get presents?' I said yes, and he said 'Oh, thats verrry nice' haha. Poor asian kids don't know what they're missing out on

I don't think you can bring anyone else to nivana, only yourself. It's very easy to be in nivana for a very short time, but to live there is difficult i think. When you blink, the split second that my eyelids raise i feel like i am in nivana. If i flicker them up and down i can get more of a feel of it. Anyone can do that.

One easy way i find of dealing with the ups and downs (if they aren't massive) is seperating yourself from the events. I can make myself happy easy enough and stop thinking bad thoughts that are making me feel crap. It's not the event it's self that makes you feel down, it's your constant thinking about it spiraling around and around that makes you feel crap. Just don't think about it. Of course you can just watch every event as you sit 'back there' in like enlightment but that needs full lifetime disapline. Ya can't binge drink or eat like a pig and do that. Happy medium i say. You can have moments as a budda but living a budda life is difficult in society even though it SHOULD be easy. Your thought leads you so think about where you want to be.