yabyum24

Question: Do Dzogchenpas practice tummo?

The music brings it to life. Give it a go.

I was considering putting this up on the semen retention thread, to lighten things up a bit but conceded to my better judgement. Kick-Ass Balkan music with some girls dancing to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1fJX4e7c_k

This is like saying that you shouldn't drive a car because it's potentially dangerous. It's the spurious anti-jhana propaganda which comes up time and time again when jhanas get discussed. Buddha would not have taught it, if it was not useful. As far as the other points go. @ S.J. I have no issues with any of the tantric stuff you linked to, it's all good to me. What Malcom is saying about conceptual states in jhanas is just another way of saying that there is still some self-identification within them (which is true). They are graded though, becoming more refined, so the premise that they lead to "ever more conceptualization" is flawed, they lead to progressively less, as the mental unification deepens. This is well known. @Jeff eventually the contemplative passes through nirodha samaapatti which follows on from 'neither perception nor non perception'. This is where the 12 dependent related links are seen for what they are. At that point liberation is attained. It all listed in this sutta. Obviously, considered a lesser attainment than full Buddhahood within the Mahayana school, as it is the attainment of arhatship.

He clearly didn't get the whole way ie. cessation - hence the rebirth as a god thing. But the suttas are clear that this is do-able within one life, so perhaps he was practicing something slightly different in his Kadampa system? He was lucky to get the tummo instructions, they were clearly what he needed. Still does not prove that jhanas lead to ever more conceptualizing though. It's clear in the suttas that they don't. I rather suspect we're talking past each other though. The Pali teachings were both geographically and culturally sundered from the Tibetan. What the Tibetans understand as sutrayana does not always correspond well with the suttas in my experience. It's two divergent traditions which need to be taken within their own contexts.

Source please.

I agree the context is important and it's true that all jhanas below nirvana are still to some measure "conditioned". There is still subtle clinging somewhere in them. But there is a progression from grosser to more refined states ie. less and less conceptuality. Not "nowhere than to more conceptuality". I don't see how that can be applied unless the non-conceptual systems have their own straw man jhanas which they can set up and knock down. You know the suttas very well S.J. You wouldn't recognise such a description of jhana in them would you? Sure, if you compare any of them to Buddhahood, they're "lacking" but if Buddhahood is the only benchmark, then everything is lacking. Non-gradual systems have their own "Hashang-style" take on things (if that's not a loaded term eh?), but it's probably a case of gradual training followed by sudden non-gradual awakening. I don't have any problem with non-gradual teachings, in fact quite the opposite, but no need to skew Buddha's sutta teachings. Tell Malcolm it's gonna need the mother of all explanations to convince me otherwise.

I would have thought that anything barring resultant Buddhahood is unimportant to nongradual systems. Still, nice to have something to do whilst you wait for it to magically manifest. I disagree that cultivation, as outlined by Buddha in the suttas, just leads to "more conceptuality". It's pretty obvious to anyone who takes a bit of time to check it out, that this is the reverse of the truth. In fact it's a lie. Sorry - it is. Period. I do understand the necessity of making the suttas look as trivial as possible in order to underline the superiority of Dzogchen, but that shouldn't mean misrepresenting what is in them in order to achieve this.

From someone who suffered with bad asthma as a kid, I can relate to that. The wild, unruly and unremitting wind took it from me, day after day as I cycled to my new school in the countryside. Sweating, and scarcely conscious, I would fight a headwind, there and back, as it had changed direction by the afternoon. It hollowed me out too - blowing the clogged up paths clear. I owe the wind a great debt. More asthma sufferers should know about this.

Exactly. It's tempting to compare but often it comes across like school boys arguing about the relative merits of luxury class sports cars. They're years away from holding a driving license and scraping some cash together to buy their first old banger. In the mean time they can still cover a great distance on a simple bicycle. It's how far you can get with what you have that counts. A simple breathing meditation, done correctly can allow one to attain all jhanas and beyond (in much less then one lifetime). A supreme transmission or empowerment is worth very little if the recipient just wears it like a badge, swaggering and belittling others.

Six inch stilettos and a facial hair problem by the sound of it

Seems like a good idea, as there's no "forcing" anything. I ask, as we did something like mco in our Tai Chi class last week and I found it very nice indeed. The instructor introduced us to the channels from his system. As I have a background in Tibetan Tantra - with its channels, I found this very interesting. The whole Dantian thing is similar to the chakra system teachings for tummo.

This is spooky - 57 views and no single reply. Deep Taoist level 72 secret thing?

Good poll. I also like the eclectic nature of the board. So many people from diverse backgrounds sharing insight and information. That's quite unique on line. Generally people prefer to retreat into their own closed tribal units and view others with a certain paranoia. There is also quite a high class of quasi-trolling to be had from time to time, which stops things getting too heavy. Or it lands in the pit or a ban or whatever.

That was my understanding of the situation. Thanks for clarifying.

So they're not complementary?

Well, I'm glad that's cleared up. I was about to whizz an email off to Malcolm but it looks like I can leave him in peace now.

Yeah, I just contributed to it by making that bit up

Ah okay, I'll let you off on that

Yeah, I'm totally confused... I didn't think it could be Dzogchen. I mean you guys have got those dark retreats, lights and stuff. I know it's secret and you don't discuss it but what little I've heard, is very different from HYT.

So this dude and (Karma Chagmey Rinpoche) are telling porkies? Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Really? Are you sure that's genuine Dzogchen? It's just that I've always understood Dzogchen as not requiring such 'means-to-an-end'. Why do you need that if you have direct introduction? Surely it's redundant.

But what about the fragment of green skin they found on one skull along with an (as yet unidentified) piece of technology with the words "Made in Atlantis" engraved on it. Now if THAT's not evidence!!!

Seems odd for a Dzogchen tantra to be Mahayoga. I wouldn't expect that. Are the completion stage practices the standard tummo etc or the specific Dzogchen ones?

I assume that would be Atiyoga?