yabyum24

I like it, although I hate to admit that sometimes (in certain very, very limited situations) I have benefited from having my butt royally kicked from someone who hasn't accepted me for "being who I was". I never enjoy the experience mind you... ...they're never around for me to thank years later when I finally get around to seeing it.

Yes, but let's qualify it. A class of literature is fine, and I'm cool with that. It's just that tantra and Vajrayana are commonly understood to refer to Highest Yoga Tantra, the system of Yidam generation & 6 Yogas completion stage, As Tibetan Ice flagged up in the quote. It seems rather incongruous.

Both adhere to to the simultaneous approach, as opposed to the gradualist, as far as I know.

But doesn't Zen have certain similarities to Dzogchen?

Thanks guys. I enjoy discussing the topic in an open way, I'm glad you've enjoyed it. It's not often that such an opportunity presents itself and you can imagine that such dialog is virtually impossible on most dedicated Buddhist boards. That's the beauty of the Tao bums.

Hardly surprising that you can get confused, as there's a lot of miss-information of various kinds out there. I've encountered many prize nuggets over the years, the more ridiculous of which are: 1. 1st Jhana is a state of complete oblivion where the person is utterly unaware of anything and can be mistaken for someone who is dead. 2. Jhana is dangerous and is not suitable for our times. We do not have the merit to cultivate it / it is Buddhist 'dope' and just clinging to bliss in a deluded manner. 3. Dry insight is all you need, and indeed what should be practiced, as instructed by Buddha (recently invented in Burma btw.) 4. There is no self. (nihilism and never taught by Buddha) The list of such stuff goes on. I think with the availability of communication online, there's a real chance that people who have genuine experiences, as opposed to doctrine-bashers, can share and learn from each other. There could be a flowering of Buddha's teachings on jhana. After all, he exhorts his monks to practice it in numerous suttas. Advice which is, for some reason, overlooked these days.

Thanks Nikoli, that's a great help. It makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Cessation is something you have already experienced in some measure and you have learned a fair bit from it already. Cessation of grasping, cessation of anger, cessation of the incessant ego-mind 'me-me-me' dialogue etc. You don't intellectually "learn" anything, you directly experience it and thus "know" it to be true. By people who are relying on misunderstood doctrines. Anatta does not actually mean "no-self" it means "not-self" and there is a world of difference between the two. "No-Self" is some kind of paradoxical, contradictory, speculative, up-your-butt mind-game. Not-Self is revealed in jhana because as the aggregates are relinquished in deeper samatha (tranquillity), vippassana (awareness) sees the non-ownwership of them all. Also genuine past life recall opens this up too. Many Buddhists who believe in the fallacy of "no-self" reject the notion of rebirth, as they see an obvious contradiction between there being no-person and "something" which could take rebirth. I could write a massive post on this alone, but suffice to say, you can discard the idea of no-self. Perfect. Sangha who don't bother cultivating meditation will have to justify their time by doing other things, like reifying Buddha's teachings into various doctrines and ideologies and then insisting that other people "believe" it. Someplace he said that all he taught was "stress and its release". Okay, I've bashed reification a bit but it is understandable. After all, it's how we have made sense of the world since we were kids and it's an indispensable tool in everyday life. Just at some point we need to drop it. I know that I'm still carrying a lot of junk in my mental rucksack, just because enough masters have told me that I have some very important stuff in there and I can't believe they are all wrong and that I have all the answers. I take it out from time-to-time and have a look at it. It's a bit tarnished but who knows, it could still could polish up nicely? Yeah, that's the acid test. To what extent are desire and aversion still present and controlling us? Being honest with ourselves on this one helps to keep our feet on the ground and the work in progress. I've always felt that jhana is a relinquishment not an attainment.

Thanks for putting that up. There are people in my life I greatly value who suffer from depression and I never know what to say to them about it. Understanding where they're at can help. I'm reluctant to recommend meditation, as I'm aware that "for a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". In other words, it may be completely wrong for them.

Hi Kajenx, This sounds very good. The fact that subsequent to that experience your meditation has completely changed, demonstrates that it was a breakthrough, rather than a one-off jolly. Jhana is dynamic, contrary to what some sources claim. Powerful bliss emerges in second jhana but it becomes a burden in itself. In the sutta I linked previously, there is the phrase "he discerns that there is an escape beyond this." This is where you run up against that which is hemming in your expanding consciousness. It's a kind of barrier and when you get there you can experience "nimitta" (some kind of odd sign that something is imminent). Generally this is described as a kind of light but this is only one possibility. There are also "feeling nimita" which manifest physically... Perhaps the buzzing you are feeling is something of this kind? The "black hole" will suck you in. You move into it and through it. A very apt description. Yes it is. It can even happen when you are walking around and begins to increasingly happen outside of formal meditation. Your mind will unbind (of itself) and your consciousness will expand into space. This is the self-liberation of thoughts we hear of in some Buddhist schools, or the dissolution of Shakti into Paramashiva, as in Spanda Shaivism. You can feel the difference between the contracted state of your mind (obsessing over some crap) and the expansive state, which is blissful, empty, clear and incomparable. It's not enlightenment, or liberation of itself, but it points the way towards it. Very much like a nimitta. You could be very close to another experience. Don't let it faze you, or excite you, just carry on observing it as if it has got nothing whatsoever to do with you. The gory details are where it's at. Without them, there is no way of conveying your experience in a meaningful way. Go for it and don't let anyone talk you down. Be guided by your experience, not by expectations of any kind.

Perfect. So many good points mentioned on this thread. Not crossing the line, (or fearfully rejecting the force on the opposite side), in order to transform that potential, is the hardest balancing act of them all and one which draws neither sympathy nor understanding. Flinch, and you enter the vortex of habituation - Maya's bondage. The transmutation of the lower into the higher, requires nutriment drawn from the subterranean roots of the lower. It's the fuel of growth which also has the potential to consume us in turn. One must needs lick honey off the razor's edge.

SEEKING BUT NOT FINDING THE RECLUSE Under pines I ask the boy; he says: "My Master's gone to gather herbs. I only know he's on this mountain, but the clouds are too deep to know where." Jia Dao (Chia Tao)(c.779-843) translated by Mike O'Connor

To allow the monks peace and quiet and a spiritual environment away from the busy distractions of the world. Many monasteries were built where solitary hermits used to hang out. As disciples gathered, and time passed, structures were added. The sites were considered holy or blessed - places of special energy etc.

Where did you get that from?

Hi Kajenx, Has your subsequent meditation, since that incident improved or changed in any way? There's a real divergence of opinion out there as to what constitutes first jhana. You need to look closely at One After Another as they occurred. This is the best description I've ever read for the stages of jhana. You can see that at no point is anyone 'zoning out' or swooning into unconsciousness, so you can ignore those who claim jhana = oblivion with no awareness and only knowledge of it when you subsequently arise out of it. This is an excellent method to attain jhana. It's called awareness release it combines nicely with a slight awareness of how the breath affects the body - movement etc. It also works on its own too. Some Buddhist do but there's a lot of misunderstanding out there. "Forcing" anything is wrong. Awareness of breath has no element of compulsion or desire for any outcome. Right again. The word "concentrate" carries all the wrong connotations. It is awareness (vipassana) which notes what is happening in an impartial non-judgmental way. And release of all stress and tension which will take you deeper into tranquility (samatha). The two are dual components of the same process. Not separated out, like some insist. Thoughts don't cease until 2nd Jhana. See the sutta I linked to. Yeah. That's the one. Yes because your ego is tainting it. The ego wants control of everything. Don't let it near your practice. Yes, the insight component is provided by your awareness. If you didn't have this you would sink into a dull torporific state, or blank out, like in deep sleep. I haven't got a clue about Taoist levels, so I can't comment there. It all sounds very positive. I'd keep on letting go in the way you have done so far.

That's fine. As far as I'm concerned, people who openly declare sutra to be "nursery bs" are not vajrayanists - although they like to present themselves as such. If they have ever taken tantric vows at all, then they are no longer bothering to uphold them on this forum. So why should I have any confidence in anything they say? I'm not a Dzogchenpa, so I keep an open mind on this whole jax business. I'll investigate and draw my own conclusions. But "innocent until proven guilty" I reckon.

Yes, it bears all the hallmarks of a coordinated action. The SWAT Team has landed.

Looks like a must-have. I'm currently reading The Tibetan Yogas Of Dream And Sleep Very impressive it is too.

That'd be Dzogchen termas I guess?

Would you reckon that Dzogchen tantras are superior to non-Dzogchen Vajrayana ones?

Why is Dzogchen classified as Vajrayana. I mean there's no generation/completion stage. No 6 yogas etc. It's a whole different ball game.

Which brings me to my next question. Would you say that Dzogchen = Vajrayana or even Buddhism?

So, what if someone found an authorized teacher from the lineage of Tsongkhapa?

Nice one - your awareness stepped outside it.

And all we know about you is that you think sutra is "bs".