effilang

A heart attack on a plate?

That would be really neat if what we were seeing demonstrated was real, except that the whole thing is a 3d composite. You can tell by the unrealistic ambiently occluded contact shadows among other things, plus the 3D connexion and dual monitor setup totally gave it away lol. It would be awesome to have transportation like that though. Maybe one day

You guys appear to be out of my league. But in my humble experience. If you assume that you have broken through illusion you are still having an illusion. I think that to break through illusion, one needs to break through duality, because using illusion contextually, automatically dictates that within that frame of cognition the counter-concept of non-illusion exists and as long as a person's state of mind exists in a reality which allows him to categorize phenomena or experiences in ANY state within which it's direct opposite exists, means that they are still trapped in the illusion of rationalizing their reality. For a person to break through illusion means their mind is in a reality of function that is completely non-dual and at that point, there will be no question of illusion or non-illusion. There will simply be an experience, an experience of no-name and no state. To say you have broken through illusion already demonstrates that you are actively congizantly differentiating between illusion and non-illusion and differentiation is an illusion in itself, because IME differentiation is simply NOT possible. Only the attempt at differentiation is possible, and the ideas produced by the attempt to classify and differentiate create what we experience as our personal reality. In essence, the consciousness of our true existence understands that the difference between the objects of comparison are in fact interchangeably identical and ultimately VOID of illusion, because any point at which the existence of a non-dual entity originates from will be perceived as an independent reality by the lesser, dual mind. I say interchangeable, because energy is transformative, and anything that is limitlessly transformative cannot be qualified or categorized under one state. To do so, to attempt to categorize it; that is what begets the concept of illusion, from which illusions spawn. From what i understand in my experience. Illusion is the illusion. To break through, you have to rise above not only the product of ILLUSION but the concept of illusion. When there is no more illusion as a concept, then i think you've achieved non-duality, because then labels can no longer be formed and names can no longer be given. And identification is not possible. Illusion isn't even the correct word. What i think is illusion, is a personal perception of your reality. The tricky part is that every persons reality viewed from the eyes of the experiencer sees different things and that is completely understandable. Sorry that i'm not as read as you guys are with all the Buddhist texts, so i can't drop any fancy quotes, but this is the best way i can explain the visions i've had during deep meditations. I could be wrong but, i think that if a person breaks through illusion, that they will be incapable of realizing it. Perhaps the real break-through happens when you begin to question whether you have broken through illusion, endlessly? Perhaps this would be the best way to approach it. At least you will have guaranteed advancement in your realization this way. Perhaps : )

So you're saying that if a person does not use his mind to intend to sit down and not think, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to ever happen naturally during the day? Based on what criteria do you define what is natural to the Tao and what not and why do you believe that source so strongly? To say that it is impossible to achieve, because only a sage knows how to do it is false. Sages and Buddhas were normal people too. Anyhow. In actuality, there are a lot of books that explain the entire process of attaining immortality. So one definitely doesn't need to find an immortal, he need only cultivate a strong will and practice regularly. That is of course, the hard part : ) AND SINCE YOU SAID THAT. Should i assume that if YOU claim that the only way to cultivate the TAO via active meditation is through an immortal, that when you had your personal experience with active meditation, that it was through an immortal that you, well... found? - And if not then doesn't that essentially mean based on your beliefs that, the experience you had with active meditation was not genuine or credible? And if it was not credible, then why do you have such strong negative opinions about it?........ Oops. Wait. What? So now you're practicing? And not only that, but you're doing it "well". Sounds like you are using intention and you don't even know it. Either you're practicing non-doing or you're practicing doing or both. But between those two i believe lies emptiness. You can only get to the center by practicing one of the former two. Otherwise if we could voluntarily enter emptiness, well. That would defy any reason for us studying Taoism. Seriously though. Ok, but so do active meditators. So, maybe the force is also strong with active meditators if we experience the same thing, eh? No, No, No... You can't jump from saying "I" did it before and didn't have a good experience to saying, "THEREFORE it is not the true Tao". The leap between the two statements is as big as the grand canyon and filled with as big irrationalities. What i think you SHOULD be saying here is. "Active meditation, is not the most effective method of cultivating the Tao FOR ME , MY BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL and what have you there." You can't claim based on your singular personal experience that a particular method is unanimously counter productive in pursuing the Tao to the entire human race. Hello world, i have concluded that based on my humble experience this is not in accordance with Tao for everyone. One thing works for someone and it doesn't for another. Do you understand the point i'm trying to make? Here. If you have two people, one is an active meditator and one is a passive meditator, humor me... If both of these practitioners achieve similar results with their respective methods, is one of them not in accordance with the Tao? Is one of them doing it good and the other bad? Are you in accordance with the Tao? PS: It would be nice if instead of cherry picking the one or two of my questions that you could find something to reply to, that you actually address the other 10 or so that completely contradict what you're saying... But hey what the hell. It's not like we're trying to make sense?

Aaaaaah! I think i finally got it people. How could i have been so blind. Sitting down and not thinking about anything, is not in accordance with the Tao, because we are intending to sit and intending not to think. BUT, intending not to sit down and intending not to NOT think, is in accordance with the Tao, because we are not intending to sit or concentrate. One intention must be better than the other. Makes perfect sense now..................... I think Lao Tzu, that it is possible that you do not differentiate between intention and thought. They are two different things, that seem as one. Intention when it is coarse, that is in the beginning stages of meditation. Always needs thought motivated by desire to be directed in order to be utilized. It relies on thought to direct it. Later though, you can control intention directly without thought. It is a sort of empty intention that provides a concentration, but it is a concentration void of thought. That is how good meditators can use their intention for concentrating and for catalyzing the alchemical transformations that take place in both our methods. If concentration requires thinking, and thoughts are a product of the fire of the heart and the desires of the senses. Then a thought free of the desires is in essence empty concentration. That is TRUE intention. Empty intention. Intention empty of desire driven thoughts. Empty intention and thought is the closest most humans come to the Tao in my opinion. Every once in a while everyone has a spark of this emptiness. True masters do it naturally. Acting without acting. Acting without the desire to act. Simply acting. Wu Wei as some have already said. "Action without action". That IS active meditation.

Actually, no. You cannot use a common ground to point out why active meditation is not good, because i do not share that opinion, obviously. HOWEVER. If the Tao is everywhere, and i agree that it is, then isn't it going to be there where we are going to be sitting to meditate? Why if it is everywhere, does it all of a sudden run away and disappear when we sit down to meditate? Are you implying that the Tao that has no intention prefers your method over others since it is less in active meditators?

I cannot recall what those are by name or if i have read them, i'll look it up to try and understand your perspective better. Let me by my reasoning point out the blatant fallacy of your argument. And, I gave my logical analysis that Dao should be everywhere and every seconds. That is true Dao. Dao is Toward the claim that meditation is not the right way, this point doesn't actually oppose the idea's that meditators hold, because in fact, a basis of Alchemical Taoist theory to which most informed meditators are well acquainted with states that, the Tao is everywhere and all the time and that we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. So this is a common ground between practitioners of your method and active meditation methods. In other words, you cannot use that as an argument. It is simply a logical invalidity. Dao is beyond man's intelligence and conflict with intention I won't be so bold as to reply to this statement, as it would imply that i KNOW what the Tao is. I have had but sniffles of it's intoxicating farts and am a monumental effort away from achieving it, that i may say upon others what IT IS and what it is not with a conviction as confident as yours. I know from experience that anybody who has never had something, but gives their opinion about it like they have achieved it, in reality normally hasn't. As always i could be disastrously wrong, right? After all, you could in fact be an enlightened immortal who just likes to spend Saturday nights on the internet. Everything is possible. How about you, do you accept with everything you know, that you could be completely wrong? Are you capable of accepting that probability for yourself? I have a question for you then, to test your position. If you claim that the Tao is everywhere and all the time, then why is it that "intention", the mind, the will of man. Things that are all by definition, all manifestations of the Tao, are in your exact words in "conflict" with the Tao? Don't you see that as a contradiction? Onward, why if the Dao is not in accord with man's intentions is it that both active meditators and for the lack of a better word "in-active meditators" like yourself both have THE SAME energy centers in the body activated during the transformation of their body, where the activation happens faster with active meditators? And how are you not actively using your mind if you already have an idea you have set into your head that needs to be avoided? Doesn't that already imply that you are actively using your intention to eschew or avoid that which is the opposite of your goal? Do you get what i mean? If you can already identify "active meditation" in your mind and you think it is the wrong way, then your mind is already intending to make sure you are not actively meditating. So whether you intend to or not, by choosing one side of duality over an other, you are forcing your mind to actively exclude one and concentrate on the other. Whichever way you look at it. If you have a "concept" in your mind like "Active" and "Non-Active", then you are already exercising the intention of the mind. It is inescapable. The REAL difference is that, active meditators use more "intention" than "in-active" meditators. Maybe you can't see that, because you are less experienced than I. Maybe it is the other way around. I guess we will never know. ...acheiving Dao through "active mindful meditation" is almost impossible. Really? Can you please explain then, how long it takes to achieve the Tao with active meditation and how long with your method? You know, just so that statement produces SOME evidence of practical rationalization, and not simply philosophical claim. What are the physical and energetic manifestations of your method in the body and how do you measure the progress of your cultivation? Further more, if you can't measure or identify the manifestations of your practice within your body, then how can you compare it to other methods in order to have the grounds upon which to claim that active meditation is "almost impossible" to achieve, or that your method is better? What is your basis for practical comparison?

Actually, no you didn't. But if you did, it would probably have read something like "<insert substantial logical argument based on comparative practical experience through exercise> followed by... and this is why i think one is not a good choice in reality; anther is the best choice. " I guess one can only dream...

There are passive Yin methods of realizing the Dao and there are active Yang methods of realizing the Tao. I don't understand why people are still being one-sided when we exist in a reality of duality. One method will never be the only way. Lao Tzu. Yes you can achieve the Tao passively by living mindfully of it, or "corresponding" as you put it, but that is only objectively a form of passive contemplation. Relatively speaking, being mindful of ANY idea or construct already means that you are actively meditating. So the common sitting meditation methods of internal alchemy are really not that far off from the types of practice you describe. They are simply a more active version, which through concentration yield faster results. I agree with you in saying that one need only live in the Tao and be aware of it to begin experiencing spiritual transformations of the energetic and physical body. Yes this is so. Internal alchemy, that is, what you call bad practices are basically an active variation of this. To break it down to it's base most, meditation is concentration at it's core. The concentration over "nothing", or the concentration over "something". Mindfulness over an object, sound, sight, a process or a goal. You, by choosing to be mindful or the Tao are automatically meditating. You can not live every day in the Tao, without being mindful of that idea, and that already implies a conscious effort to re-direct the thoughts from the state of the monkey-mind through concentration, to achieving something. So, whether you think of it that way or not, you are doing what everyone else is doing while meditating, only with less direction. You are like a dry sponge in a hot bathtub, floating on the surface of the water and slowly sinking into it by letting it soak into you. Activate meditators are also the sponge, but we contract by will and soak in that water considerably faster. Figuratively speaking your method of cultivation empties the mind of desire and goals, and willfully being mindful of what is greater, the TAO. In doing so you open a connection to the TAO and invite it to flow through you, by emptying your vessel, you allow the TAO to enter you and transform your mind and body. Although this also yields results, it is a slower process. I know because i can sense the difference during active meditation and passive meditation. Now, Alchemical cultivators on the other hand have an advantage over this method, because not only do they practice the above mentioned, but they actively prompt the Tao into them. I say they have an advantage, because they automatically apply both passive and active meditations at the same time. The underlying problem here is that, many practitioners have a difficult time finding something that works, and with the amount of options available to us today due to the openness of the internet, it takes even longer to sort that which works for you from that which doesn't. And eventually when someone finds something compatible to their virtues, that is finally bearing fruit, they assume it's THE ONLY WAY. This is the conundrum. People have to understand that what works and what doesn't is completely relative. Having said that. NO MATTER what applies to you, a balance between YIN and YANG methods is the fastest path to cultivation. You must seek a form of passive activity. A Yang within Yin. Even the Buddha of India found that the middle way bore the sweetest fruit. People who have something to argue about, or have points to defend, are in that already demonstrating their attachment to things. Making their pride and arrogance towards their practice methods disturbingly obvious. The only people i care to listen to and whose posts i admire are those that accept and advise the effective potential of all methods under the sun, while being able to clearly differentiate and consciously analyze and comprehend their practical differences. I don't think we are here to argue whether one thing can work or another can't. If you are, then you've already dropped the ball. What is left to debate here, is the effectiveness of one method over the other. This website is in a way, more or less an educational hub and i like to think it is one populated by individuals of relatively decent intellectuality. Having said that, Lao Tzu, i really dislike your posts for the mere reason that you provide no foundational argumentation over your postulations. On the premise that introductory meditators come here to find ways to cultivate themselves, i find it unacceptable and almost maliciously misleading to make the statements you do without giving potentially uninformed cultivators the sufficient data to make informed decisions and inadvertently misdirecting newbie readers. You mentioned somewhere something about right methods and wrong methods with what has been documented by the "sages". If you pay more attention you will realize that the method of cultivation you subscribe to is very well known and also very often documented. However, in addition to the description of methodologies you will find in most Taoist books, there are also detailed explanations on which is slower, which faster, because of what and why. Cultivators and researchers of spiritual evolution since the beginning of humanity have tried and died to find what is best suited to the potential of the human being. Because of their efforts, there is a wide range of choices in cultivation today. If you want to make claims on superior practice methodology, elaborate why. At the least in respect of their courage and endeavors. Most people here are past the delusion of works and doesn't work. So you're going to have to do a little better to make your statements stick. I like that the thread has brought up much conversation, but for one that makes claims against something, there is very little follow through to back it up from a practical perspective, other than the occasional "it is my experience", which is beyond lacking in substance in my extra humble opinion : )

How can one who has not attained the Tao themselves, dictate the spirit of the Tao? You are all wrapped up in concepts. We think because we grasp the words of the sages in their writings, that we fully comprehend the unquantifiable experiences from which they draw their inspiration to communicate? The mere words we possess in our diction can never truly accurately represent genuine spiritual experiences. I've had them, they are beyond the senses. When you try to speak of them, your tongue blocks. A great artist and a sage can but hope that with his words at least something of the whole is understood. It is not by chance that every teaching is an instruction, it is not by chance that they hurry us into practice. Because there is only one truth, and they know damn well their personal interpretations will never accurately represent the reality of what Tao is. Every teaching is an instruction to practice, so that you may with hard work yourself too experience it. No wise sage claims their way is the way. Not Buddha not Lao Tzu. They all show you the path, but the destination, the TAO always remains a personal experience. Leading you to the path is the best they can do. To sit here and discuss what is the Tao and what isn't, you both look like fools on either side of the fence. Who here is an immortal or such a high level meditator that they have the right to preach to others of what the Tao is. When did you last enter the void, when did non-duality engulf you and embrace you completely, that you are so certain of your convictions. Let us not forget a very basic concept: Everything that is a product of the Tao, which sits below in the hierarchy has the essence of the TAO embedded in them. That means that any manifestation of the 2 poles and 4 phenomena has the potential to lead you back to the Tao, after the essence of the TAO, THROUGH meditation/concentration/contemplation has been pin pointed in the product of the phenomena. That means that sound, thought, feeling, sight, smell... any product of the 4/5 elements THROUGH concentration can have the essence of the TAO discovered within them. Whether you're chanting mantras to find the Tao in sound, or meditating on a picture or an object to discover the essence of the TAO through sight. Once the spark of the TAO through active contemplation arises in any method, you must capture it and cultivate it to lead you back to the source. There is no this method is right or that method is wrong. Every method is possible when the empty mind is combined in the equation to help you derive the essence of the Tao from the object of meditation. Everyone is right. That's the real answer. The combination of the elements within our own bodies dictate what methods we can pursue at a particular time. For some we are too weak, for others too strong, and for another we may be lacking a certain virtue at the time required. Because one thing doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work at ALL. You may simply be currently incompatible with the requirements for arousing the spark of the TAO in the object of your meditation. Since both philosophy, meditation, doing nothing, being, non-being are all a product of US, thus a product of the TAO, with the right concentration they can all yield the spark of the Tao, of which you must hold on to when it shows itself in order to further cultivate it into a fire. So again everyone is right.

My holiday present to you all. http://www.mixcloud.com/lowlight/i-can-hear-the-snow-fall/

Sounds like tuning a guitar : ) I can only imagine that it must be a very beautiful experience to get in touch with your patients in such a way.

Seemed a pretty accurate description of the process to me. But what do i know I've found this to be the fastest way to reach a high level of concentration. Just sitting. In the Tai Ji Tu when Yin reaches it's maximum potential Yang begins to emerge. Active concentration although a viable route, i would consider to be a Yang exertion and less effective at achieving a stillness.

Bardon might say that to make the body light in order to eg: stand on eggs with pressure applied laterally, as we see in many Qi Gong demonstrations. One would need to have good control of the Air element, or at the time of the feat fill their body with the air element through the use of the 5th element and the imagination to facilitate the impregnation of the physical. How would a Taoist explain it? To make the body heavy and unmovable. To have strong roots as we see in many martial arts demonstrations by cultivated masters. Bardon would say, the earth element must saturate the body through the use of the 5th in order to make it heavy and extra gravitational. How would a Taoist explain it? To heat up the whole body in order to endure minus temperatures like many Tiben monks of the tumo have been documented to do, or to concentrate the heat in the palms in order to set a light a blaze like John Chang. Bardon would say, the fire element must be inhaled into the body or appendage. How would a Taoist explain it? To summon rains like the masters in Opening The Dragon Gate, or to cool the body in intense heat, Bardon would say one must fill the body with the water element at will. How would a Taoist explain it? I am curious to hear not only Taoist energetic interpretations of these feats of cultivation, but any other religion that practices an alchemy of the elements.

From what i understand, we have the Body, Spirit and the Soul. Where the spirit is a function of the mind and possibly vice-versa, or the ego if you will. I think this is what they refer to in zen as the self. You should discern between the Mind/Spirit and the Soul, the latter of those which is what i think reincarnates. The former is illusory and is created anew with the possession of every body. The soul on the other hand is eternal, but it's potential is blocked into full realization by the conceptions of the Mind/Spirit/Ego. That is why to discover or bring forth the soul, or original/true nature, in order that it is our primary form of cognition and existence, we must eradicate the state of the Spirit/Mind/Ego. In a sense dethroning the Ego, with the aim of elevating our center of function directly to the soul and not via the Mind. If you think of the soul as a light, then enlightenment is bringing your state of function to the light. Bringing the darkness of the ego forth, so that it may be illuminated by the original purity of the soul and release you from the sensual bonds of the sight, taste, sound, feeling, smell and thought, which rouse the emotions and heart promoting the function of the lesser mind. I suppose this is why almost every form of meditation begins with paying attention to yourself. Because when you become an OBSERVER, you are no longer the thought, or the sense, you abstract yourself from it's reality and choose to no longer flow in it's stream. This is when you notice that you are in fact SOMETHING other than the senses, when you can perceive the sense without BEING the sense. The more you do this, the more familiar you become with the consciousness that observes the function of the lesser mind/spirit. This, when grasped even for a moment, is true nature. (IMHE) Effective concentration is being able to issue intention directly from your Soul, bypassing the mind, but to do that you have to find the place of nothingness between Yin and Yang. Your breath can help you find this state. I got carried away. Either way. IMO it is this entity that you experience in a state of perfect concentration that reincarnates. Not the body, not the mind, but beyond that. The observer that lies beyond the simple mind.

Damn. I'm in the wrong forum again. trololo

Drew, What is the emergency procedure for handling a woman who is obviously leeching on you? That is, without smackin em or attackin em : ) Do you have to cross your legs, perform a hand mudra to block off channels etc? What can you do to help reduce the Qi to Jing deconversion in these cases?

I concur. This is a very good set.

I completely agree with this. I recall one time after a long session of dynamic Qi Gong, i sat down and got into lotus like my legs were wet noodles. I literally stood there for minutes *blinking in wonder, trying to figure out how this is possible without me having stretched or anything. My muscles and tendons were cold as icicles, but because i was so charged up i got right into the lotus and didn't experience any pain. I tried the same thing the next day without doing any Qi Gong and i nearly half broke my ass. There is something about circulating energy through the limbs first that really affects the constitution of the tendons and muscles, bringing them in my opinion to a state of flexibility similar to that induced by a thorough rise in body temperature from a conventional warm-up. Maybe try a few sets of Yi Jin Jing, before you try popping into the lotus.

In other words, to place the fire under the water to create steam? Where does the vapor store itself thereafter, in the heart?

Very often when i do my LDT meditation, i will start experiencing sensations in my throat. It's sharp and dull at the same time, constricting and expanding in long pulsations. Normally after this, i feel an airy string about 0.3/0.4 cm in diameter flow up to my third eye, but i do not experience any discomfort there. I'm curious about that. If i can go from my LDT to my third eye with discomfort only at Vishuddha, then it's possible i may have some sort of a major blockage there. This happens almost every time now as of recent during breath work, the moment my mind sharpens and my thoughts come to a rest. It goes there like it's on duty, and for all i know, it probably is. To the Yoga adepts here, what significance does that have and is there anyway to translate this into something more practical, so i can help the process by practicing certain virtues, deeds or even exercises? Thanks.

I am just getting into Hermeticism, and from what i gather so far, they do believe in entities. But from their perspective, conjuring rain or manifestations of the element of water (as far as i've read). Are performed directly by the practitioner. This would make sense from a karmic point of view, as that would make them fully responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's a model which makes more sense to me. On the other hand if an entity, someone other than you were needed to actually pour down the rain, and the aftermath was 10000s of people dying... Would an entity really take the chances? Most of Taoism is cloaked in hidden meanings and symbolism, to conceal the true meaning of important texts from the unrighteous seekers. It could perhaps be possible that many other religions have adopted similar conceptions in order to retain the truth of the matter. That perhaps, everyone has the potential to do these things? Even though there are so many religions and beliefs, we all seems to share the same physical and energetic constitution, so really how different could things be from one land to another. Hm... Just speculating of course : )

Yes of course. Why wouldn't i take "Intention", the sole word in your first post as a hostile attack. lol Buddy. You're not intimidating enough to be considered hostile. Get over your ego and stay on topic please.

Interesting! I never knew that was a theory behind it. I suppose it makes sense, because i've seen some of these rooting guys, they can really take a toll and still not move. Hmm... There must be something more practical to it. I wonder...