effilang

***No more bad dreams or nightmares as the Yin aspects have been refined completely, but still nice dreams : ) You can sense it as practice progresses. The dreams become more and more pleasant and more and more lucid.

Thanks, AAK, but you again didn't answer my main question. Here is some background. And here is my question: - If physical immortality is a part of your tradition, and you claim you get younger and escape death, can you direct us to any one of your masters or their masters who are still alive today and were not buried or cremated, as a testament to this achievement? In relation to your other statements. I'll go by the numbers and share my ideas: 1. I'll have a look at that. 2. That's very convenient wouldn't you say? This way only people from inside your school can confirm it, its very biased. 3. Yes, naturally it's the nature of Yin and Yang, and it is evident in the Taijitu. I'm sure you already know this, but for the sake of making my point I'll say it. When Yang reaches its height Yin is born and vice versa. All things that are products of Taiji and the 5 elements are thus impermanent. They all naturally succumb to aging, death and decay; and their post-natal physical energy simple recycles itself based on the law of conservation of energy. The higher aspects of the Yuan Shen are not a Taiji energy and this is what we cultivate in Neidan. So in terms of the temporary partnership of Taiji (physical body) and Wuji aspects (immaterial spirit); yes there is the death of that which was the composite human being. Independently of each other, the Taiji energy is recycled continuously while being transformed into other forms of energy, while the Wuji aspects continue in their own respect. From such a perspective nothing ever really dies, but I'm not talking about that when I refer to physical immortality; rather I'm talking about a human being as one integrated and fully functioning unit. That is the idea of physical immortality. So to say that THAT ages, dies and decays, is certainly not a violation of Taiji, but evidence of its law which is reflected in the life cycle of every being born in Taiji through a natural birth. 4. It is not a persons physical body that overcomes Yin and Yang, but a person's cultivated immaterial body and soul. Again if you do not subscribe to this, then please let us know which one of your masters wasn't buried or cremated. That will be evidence enough I think. Otherwise we have to assume this is simply something you talk about in your school, but nobody has ever achieved in the last 500 years? 5. I didn't forget, that's what I also said a few posts back : )

Happy New Year to everyone! May the upcoming year of the Fire Rooster, galantly grace your goals and ambitions and bring you much luck, health, prosperity and love. Tai Shang Bao Yu! : )

We can practise XTDYS anywhere, anytime. The place does not matter. We don't chant in our school. That triggers the Shi Shen. This is counterproductive to XTDYS. I wouldn't want to comment either : ) We don't have another practice other than XTDYS. Not possible in our system. I've explained why on many occasions before and in extensive detail. Please search through my posts. I've never said that Xiantian Neidan is superior. It is however different. How about you maybe stop with the opinions and trying to defame and smear our name and actually present some facts, instead of just beliefs? Of course I am getting you WRONG, everything you pretty much said IS, WRONG in relation to our school, so how about stop with the presumptions until you actually have some verifiable experience? Either you are an official member of our school and have been educated properly or you are not part of our school and have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to our art. It can't be both.... I don't understand the mentality of people who have not experienced something, talking about it as if they have. Can someone explain the logic?

Maybe have a read of these: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=725813 http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/?p=727871 http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/?p=727858 Buddy, for someone who is relying solely on supposition here, I wouldn't speak so matter of factly. Let me put you straight. You say you have read all I've written, but you didn't pay much attention. When we trigger our Yuan Shen, we begin to move into Wuji, but the primordial Qi which Hu Fa Shen bridges to us also steps down to nourish our Qi and Jing. It all happens simultaneously. You believe, you believe, you believe.... where is the actual proof? We develop both Ming and Xing in XTDYS and Yang Shen. Please read up on my posts, I'm too lazy to repeat myself. Please tell me who these Indonesian masters are so that I can have a word with them... We don't have a doctrine or dogma. Anything that is written in a book is just an opinion to us until we can prove it ourselves. We carry out this investigation and motion towards proof by practising directly with different Hu Fa Shen and learning from them. If you believe so STRONGLY in what another man wrote in a book several thousand years ago, that you use it as a yard stick for everything, how will you ever be able to exercise discretion in the presence of a Xian? You will fail immediately, because you put these figures on a pedestal. Our Hu Fa Shen are always testing us and pushing us to cultivate our wisdom. You have to challenge Hu Fa Shen and learn and not simply take the information they give us as true, because they are Xian. This is antithetical to our ethos which emphasises the development of Wu. We must develop our OWN wisdom and not follow the wisdom of others, whether they are dead or alive or immortal. More about our relationship to HFS: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/?p=719356 http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/?p=719251 Well you'll be happy to know that our Tao Yu are Daoists by practice and not Muslims. Our initiation is similar to a baptism in Christianity if you will, so one officially becomes a Daoist under Taishang Laojun after they have been initiated. And a human body getting possessed by a pigs spirit? Really? The Hun and Po configuration of an animal and that of a human are different. The human spirit has additional aspects which that of an animal lacks that would prevent such a possession... Further, Tridaya has nothing to do with Xiao Yao Pai. Here's is a little about possessions, spirits, Yang Shen and all that. http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42657-why-do-you-say-school/?p=723714 A member called FlowingHands already tried to take a swing at us with the 1970s angle and failed: Here is more on that: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42512-xiao-yao-pai-and-other-arts-from-china/ My reply to those claims here: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/?p=720068 Ok, lets have a look at these "similarities". In XYP we don't consider the soul to a be a prisoner of the body. This is a preposterous notion to us. The soul is already awake and it cannot simply be released after it is as you say "awakened", it first needs a body; Yang Shen with which to become one; a body that can exist in Wuji. So this has nothing to do with our school. We do not have such pre-requisites. One must simply be.

Important to who? How come our initiated students are practising, communicating with their Hu Fa Shen and making progress if it's important? It's only important to those to whom it is important. To us it's not : ) We don't rely on the past, we rely on what we can do right now in the present and for that we have Xiantian Daoyin Shu and our initiation. Those that cannot prove their art in the present, fall back on the words of the dead masters from the past to legitimate themselves... Back in the day when most of the spiritual schools were under secrecy, students had to take an oath not to reveal the names of their masters. It was common for students under the same master to not know one another. So, we have no value in our tradition on finding out who was whose master. We are only concerned with whether the person we are learning from NOW, can actually help us in our progress. One more reason this matters even less, is that our education is received from our assigned Hu Fa Shen and not a human teacher. My Hu Fa Shen is Jin Xiao Fa. Now that you know, how does it help you? Can you find him? Every school has it's way, we have ours. We do not force anyone to learn from us. Those that are interested come and learn and benefit. That's it. I'm actually only concerned with those that already walk through the door. The other ones take too much of my time : ) The person who initiates you is not the one who teaches you. So your teacher is your assigned Shen Xian or Tian Xian. You can become initiated, then never meet your initiator again, you will progress just as well. Fu Fak Shen IS Hu Fa Shen IS Fu Fa Shen.... SIGH* You're grasping at straws buddy... Of course it's possible. It is not only possible, it is that way, however you're misinformed here yet again. Our Hu Fa Shen are Yang Shen, which means they can multiply their bodies infinitely. One Hu Fa Shen can have countless students. It is the nature of Yang Shen. You won't know till you find out for yourself. Wrong, but again you won't know it till you experience it. If you ever get initiated, when you sit down and start having a conversation with your Hu Fa Shen, you can revise your reply. He/She is an independent conscious being and not you. They have a name, a history, a personality and a life and every Hu Fa Shen and Xian is different. Dao Yin Shu that has lost the root of Divine Guidance from the Xian is Houtian. Dao Yin Shu that has retained the root of Divine Guidance from the Xian is Xiantian. There is a fundamental difference in the source of the energy used to trigger and maintain cultivation and the level of the teacher. In one system the energy is coarse, in the other it is fine. In one system the teacher is an unrealised human, in the other it is a realised Xian. Hence why we have XTDYS and HTDYS. At initiation, the disciple is assigned to their Hu Fa Shen, then all questions are automatically answered. Once your teacher connects to you, begins moving you and communicating with you and you can feel their presence and touch, then questions of whether it's Yang Shen or not simply disappear. That's why we don't just say anything in XYP, we prove it through initiation, by backing up our words and connecting the student to a Xian from our school. We're not much for belief... Our whole practise is called, Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. It consists of: Xian Tian Shen Gong Xian Tian Qi Gong Xian Tian Jing Zuo That's it. There are no higher practises : ) We teach the cultivation of Yang Shen, most people would call that Nei Dan or Jin Dan. You can call it anything you like. Butterfly Unicorn Immortal Body Art, if you want to. The name doesn't matter, only the effect. We don't really actively do too much in XTDYS, most of our practice is Wuwei, so Shen, Qi and Jing all take care of themselves. It's the difference between XT and HT Xiulian. One is very Youwei for along time, while the other is very Wuwei from the start, but we manifest all the same results and others.

I'll try to keep it short. Maybe : ) Names? It depends very much on who you speak to. Being initiated into XYP, doesn't make you an expert on XYP. That is why we have only a select few who represent us officially and internationally. The world keeps turning. It's strange then how they know us... If legitimation is your goal, then try a little harder. I've mentioned this before about Zhengyi. We are now only affiliated with Zhengyi, that is to say we are not part of Zhengyi on paper anymore, because we chose to maintain our autonomy and govern how we spread our teachings, free from the overshadowing influence and long-term goals of particular national bodies. Many schools who were a part of Zhengyi before higher governing bodies got involved have opted for this status as a means to retain control over their traditions. Correct. Our is: 0: Dao Yu (道友) Here HFS treats us like primary or elementary school students. If we come across a steep ravine, HFS will help us by holding us up and making sure we don't get hurt. 1: Dao Shi (道仕) Here HFS treats us like secondary school students. If we come across a steep ravine, HFS will caution us, but we must carry ourselves and jump of our own accord if necessary 2: Dao Zhang (道张) - 2a, 2b, 2c. Here HFS treats us like university students and we already have significant independence and maturity. If we come across a steep ravine, we are expected to be able to see it ourselves and take the necessary actions. At this level even if we fall, HFS just observes us and waits for us to take charge and get up. 3. Dao Zun (道尊) Here HFS treats us like graduates from the university of life. A this point, we are completely independent and on a level where we can work in union with HFS to help others on the most profound spiritual levels. 4. Dao Shi (道师) Here we are granted the authority to represent Tai Shang Lao Jun as official representatives of the celestial realm. The Daoshi is authorised to delegate representation to those that reach Dao Zun level, so they can initiate others on their behalf. On our altars, that is if you even wish to have an altar, as it's not a necessity - we have: Tai Shang Lao Jun our Celestial head and his two Hufa; Er Lang Shen and Jiu Tian Xuan Nu : ) Confucianism didn't even exist during their time... However, what you should also know is that a Buddhist is also a human and a spark of the Dao. You better give Quanzhen a call about that and let them know how you really feel. Doesn't matter to us really. We are not interested in legitimation by anyone or comparison. We stand on our own two feet. Where is your proof? Here's a picture of our Shifu initiating several priests in Quanzhen (Who you claim don't know us): http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/page-2#entry724348 As I say in that post, we have done the same for many other priests from many other of the main schools and yes, they all know us : ) I imagine that your claims of Longemen and Wudang are just as credible....... Maybe you don't have the authority to get the answers you are asking for, or maybe they can "see" your heart : ) It's just Tai Shang Men Xiao Yao Pai.

Right. You're one of those guys... Didn't know electromangetism and physics terminology were a new age phenomenon? Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on that a little more? Divine energy is synonymous to the Primordial Qi of Wuji. Not a hard one to deduce contextually.. It seems that you're distracted by the name of the finger pointing to the moon - while missing the moon altogether in exchange for the opportunity to a remark of ignorance perpetuating dismissal. Do you think the Dao did not exist before the word Dao was thought up by the mind? In case you haven't noticed, we don't live in 3000 BCE anymore... We've made some discoveries in that time since... that is also Dao. It might be a good time to consider the fact that Daoism has never stayed the same. It has always been an ever-evolving and organic complex of systems, waxing and waning with the ages. That much we can see by its history. In the face of evolution and the constant of change, that which doesn't adapt, dies.

Thanks, Jeff. Funnily, I thought about you while writing the last couple of paragraphs

Actually, Wuji energy cannot be absorbed directly into the human body, because the energy is too fine and the frequency is too high, so it can adversely affect the system and shock it. Our Hu Fa Shen also have to step down to interact with some aspects of our human complex. If they just stay in their native vibration, we can't even see them with our eyes and when we can see them with our extrasensory perception they still have to tune down their energy body relative to our level otherwise they will just blind us with glaring divine light due to the intensity of their Yang Shen. In Houtian the progression from Jing > Qi > Shen is among other things, so that the practitioner can begin to tune their energy to match the same vibration of Wuji; this then allows them to immerse their developing Xiao Yang Shen directly in the sea of primordial Wuji to bathe and absorb divine energy directly into their forming subtle immortal body. In Xiao Yao Pai, during initiation we trigger the Shen directly to consciously activate that vibration, then Hu Fa Shen acts as a bridge between Wuji and Taiji to help us step down and transform the pure primordial Qi into Taiji energy that our body can absorb, meanwhile our Yuan Shen which is enveloped by our schools golden aura directly absorbs the highest vibration of Wuji and it begins to condense and become more solid; merging the 3 Hun and 7 Po into one entity; Yang Shen. This is why many newly initiated can see the dancing flowers and falling snow during initiation and start to feel a shapeless vapor forming above their head. This is the start of the Yang Shen beginning to congeal outside the body in the golden cocoon of our school's divine energy. This is often a final stage manifestation referred to as the "birth of the immortal child" in Houtian Neidan, but in our system it happens at the start and we do not have to be afraid to leave our Yang Shen outside of the body after it is born, because HFS protects us and our aura repels any Yin entities, while in Houtian Neidan, the "holy spirit" (hola Yeshua ) that is born for the first time has no protection, no home and no parents. For these roles we have the celestial branch of Xiao Yao Pai and our Hu Fa Shen. So at first the golden aura which surrounds us and wraps around our spirit comes form our school and Hu Fa Shen, but as we continue to cultivate, the ratio starts to shift from: 100:0 to 70:30, 60:40, 50:50, 40:60, 20:80, 10:90, 0:100. On the left of that ratio spectrum our aura's divine energy is called Shen Li and comes from our school and Hu Fa Shen's energy, but on the right of that spectrum, our energy has developed completely and Hu Fa Shen's protective energy has disappeared entirely. Our aura is now called Gong Li; and at this point we can stand independently in Wuji at the level of Hu Fa Shen. This development is correlated with the development of Yang Shen in Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. Moving practices generally cannot absorb Wuji. They are usually a type of Qigong that develops the Taiji energy in the houtian meridians, but because this energy relates to the physical body; after we die, it disperses within this realm and cannot enter Wuji, because its vibration is too low (too physical), so it stays in Taiji and gets recycled based on the law of conservation of energy. To be able to absorb Wuji energy, one first needs to have gotten to the Shen level of cultivation, through meditation, then learn how to transform the energy downwards so it can be used safely in in the houtian meridians that affect the physical tissues or when used during Wai Qi Liao Fa to project it into another persons energy body. If someone is claiming to be absorbing Wuji Qi during a moving practice, it means they have already achieved all of the above and are always "there", always absorbing. Their Yang Shen is developed and conscious and residing in Wuji all the time, absorbing energy 24/7. Then it doesn't matter if you're on the toilet pooping or doing Taiji; the connection is established and conscious, so the process requires no doing and is a very high level Wuwei Gong, however if we sit and pacify the acquired mind; then the process of absorption is augmented and made more efficient. I don't believe that anyone can learn that in 15 or 20 minutes as is claimed by Wuji Qigong Taiji instructors, because Houtian Neidan practitioners spend all their lives trying to get to the Shen level so they can start entering Wuji to cultivate Yang Shen, but maybe I'm wrong.

Are you sure?

This is incorrect and misleading. Wu Wei is initiated as soon as our awareness begins to resonate with the stillness of Wuji, even before making direct contact. This is manifested in all levels of Tai Yin meditation (still body, still breath, still mind). If your Jingzuo and Zuowang involve a voluntary movement in either of the three above ie: body, breath, imagination - you are trapped in Youwei and thus cannot go above the frequency of Taiji; therefore, the immortal spirit cannot even begin to be cultivated. Wuwei is not a high level achievement. It is the basis of all Tai Yin meditation (Great Yin), which is the basis for achieving and maintaining a state of stillness in which ones awareness can expand and re-connect with its original nature. There's no such thing as having to be "no longer human" to enter Wuwei practice. There is still "doing" in Wuwei, but it is not active doing. The mind is not engineering, guiding or governing the doing; yet in this non-activity the most important thing becomes active and of its own, self-doing. This is the way to Xuan Guang, Yuan Xing and manifesting the light of the true self. In our school we don't focus too much on the physical body and Ming. We just keep it healthy and follow a balanced diet. We can also eat whatever we like and have active sex lives. This is due to the source of our energy during cultivation, as we absorb Primordial Qi directly from Wuji during Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. Once this energy penetrates Taiji and interacts with our Shen we then step it down or transform it into a lower vibration which can be processed safely by the energy of the human body to support the Dantien and meridian reservoirs which can distribute the energy as necessary to regulate our Ming. So the difference between Xiantian and Houtian methods in terms of "source" is that in Xiantian we absorb divine energy from the finest vibration then convert it downwards, while in Houtian we begin with the coarse. This is one of the reasons why physical sexual celibacy is often required in Houtian. In Houtian we use force to throw the rock up into the air, because we must move from Jing to Qi to Shen to Wuji to Dao. In Xiantian we just let the rock fall from high and allow gravity to naturally do its job, because we move from Shen to Wuji to Dao, so the part which requires a lot of Youwei ie: building the energy "rocket" to propel the consciousness outside of Taiji, is skipped due to the fact that our spirit is wrapped with a cocoon of divine energy during initiation that encapsulates and replicates this function, while giving some extra perks. During the earlier phases of practice in Xiantian systems, Shen Gong and Qigong is used to calibrate the Ming, but while Ming is being worked on we are always Xiu Xin Yang Xing consciously through the day and during Jingzuo, where our Xing is purified in a natural way (Ziran) to clear and still (Qingjing) the acquired conditioned virtues while bringing forth the radiant virtues (De) of our Yuan Shen and Yuan Xing. All this leads us to become "Xiao Yao" with minimal to no effort. Hence the name of our school: Xiao Yao Pai. If you want to program yourself with the idea of "hard work", it is your choice, but it is not the reality of cultivation. The only thing challenging about spiritual cultivation is consistency. Everything else is natural.

Physical Immortality is one purported effect of neidan in houtian xiulian, but there are many accompanying skills, which a true teacher should be able to demonstrate. I directed this question at AAK some time ago, but have not received a reply. Here is some background: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=724254 Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal. So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality). AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death. Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point. So here is my question: To support these claims in lieu of any demonstrations, in those ~500 years, can you point to any of your masters or their master's masters, whom are an embodiment of these achievements and are still alive today? What are their names and where can we meet them? There are pretty much two possibilities IMHO: 1. What AAK says is true and the masters of the school, going back to its inception are still alive today and teaching and have escaped death and achieved physical immortality. OR 2. All the masters and their masters died an ordinary death and were either buried or cremated, indicating that the physical immortality claimed in their schools which supports the notion that the physical body can be prevented from dying and decaying, is actually false? How does Wuliu Pai reconcile these beliefs with the history of their school? Surely at least one of the Wuliu Pai masters must have achieved these things if they are teaching others about it? What sort of argument can you give us AAK to substantiate these statements? Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality. The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair. It's my understanding that the IRF4 Gene is responsible for melanin regulation in hair: http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=IRF4 Gene therapy will soon enough be able to change the hair colour to anything you like without dye; from gray to ginger. Everyone will still die... It is the nature of all things born of Taiji; they are bound by the law of Yin and Yang; and so they are bound by death and decay. This is why in spiritual cultivation we focus on the cultivation of the immortal spirit only by using prenatal energy.

Trick question...

What exactly do you think houtian is? The manifested Dao. As far as I know, post-heaven jing, qi and shen are basically sperm, physical respiration and the thinking mind Well, that just scratches the surface, but you're not wrong, so yes, I agree. No argument here. (the actual brain and one of the main reason why visualization and imagination is strictly forbidden in any internal practice as it causes false, placebo effects like creating a false dantian for example). Again, no argument here about your general point, but it's not forbidden in many practices. Of course this speaks volumes about results born by the practice. There is no immortal child born out of houtian practices because the ingredients are not right. The only child that can be born out of houtian practices is a real human child that comes from male and female copulating. No argument. I think you would have saved yourself time by reading more about my practice and beliefs before writing all this, because you would have seen there is no need to write it. You say that in xiantian you continue to cultivate after death but how can you do that when the tripod, the furnace and the ingredients are all found within the physical body? You can do it in Houtian also. It depends on how mature the Yang Shen is. Same applies to Xiantian. There is a cut off point, where the furnace and the tripod are no longer needed. These points differ between XT and HT. Wasn't it said in more than one text that one of the reason why we are aloud these incarnations is because we need our bodies in order to perfect ourselves? I don't know why you're trying to convince me of it. I've never said the body is unnecessary : ) Yes, It's a statistically probable assumption that some other practitioner wrote that and such texts exist and also that I've read them. So? I wouldn't engineer reality around the limitations of Taiji. Perfection is only used in relation to the imperfection of some human qualities. Even after we abandon the body, we still continue to refine our virtues, learn new skills and grow in authority and the Dao is infinite, so where is perfection? The body is just one phase of practice, and Yang Shen is just like a graduation: It's like we start from kindergarten, primary school, secondary school and university; but after you graduate - you still have to find a job and go to work right? So graduation from Taiji is not the end but the beginning of a different chapter of our existence. Also what exactly is that you define as "awareness" that it may fuse with yang shen and what is in your perception the relation between this "awareness", Yang shen and yuan shen? I don't know if I want to touch this one at all, because our tradition is so different, but here goes The awareness is one of three aspects of the composite of the Yuan Shen (Original Spirit), which is what most people call soul. Scientists believe the brain function is all there is to our acquired consciousness (Houtian Zhi Shen), so when the body dies, that's it. That's the end, but spiritual people believe in the the original consciousness or spirit (Xiantian Zhi Shen), and that even if the body dies, we can still go on. The composite of the Yuan Shen is formed of; 1. Our true self (our undying identity). Do you know what the name of your soul is? Your original name? : ) 2. The awareness. This is well, what makes us self-aware and conscious. We know that we are. 3. The energy that encapsulates our true self and our awareness. All three together make the Yuan Shen, but there is one more aspect. We call it Sin Sik. This is like our flight recorder : ) - It stores all the data. It's like an indestructible hard drive. All the memories and past life events and experiences are stored in here, but also something else; our actions. Thus, the Sin Sik is responsible for keeping a tally of our actions and keeps an account of whether we are in credit or in debit. If we are in credit we can collect. If we are in debit we have to pay. For most Karma the payment does not have to manifest in exactly the same way, but it must be equal. The exception is the karma of life and death. It can only be repaid with life and death. Sin Sik does not discriminate the information. It just records the actions and reactions. It's attached to the true self, so we cannot run away from it, haha. It is always part of our identity. If we are a hair dresser and we are cutting someones hair with the intention of making them look good and making them feel happy, but we accidentally cut half of their ear off - Sin Sik doesn't look at whether you didn't mean to do it or not. It just looks at the action and the consequence. This is why its very important to be wise and focus in daily life, because even if we have a good intention the outcome can be negative. The quality of our intention is for our own personal cultivation. Nobody can see our intention in our heart. They just feel the effect of your final action. This is how Sin Sik records. The Yuan Shen further yet is comprised of 10 layers; so there are layers within layers if you will. Its a complex thing.... These are what some refer to as San Hun Qi Po (三魂七魄). The Hun are the immaterial spirits and our unmanifested consciousness. The Po are also our immaterial spirits, but a lower form of manifested consciousness; like that of the 5 apertures of physical sense which contribute to the formation of the matrix of the acquired consciousness; the mind and our temporal egoic identity. That is why you may hear from some high level practitioners that as the 10 layers begin to fuse and the acquired consciousnesses meld into one to join the 3 hun, one can see sounds, taste touch and hear smells, because the consciousnesses are merging into one entity and the whole body becomes a unified receptacle and processor of information. That's why the immortals don't use their nose to smell or their skin to feel. Their whole being absorbs the information. When the sperm and the egg meet to form the zygote, the Yuan Shen enters it to infuse it with consciousness, then it connects to a brand new 7 Po. So the physical body acts as an intermediary for bringing together the Po with the Hun. When the body becomes weak, loses its ming and we die, the consciousnesses of the 7 Po unable to be sustained by the physical body that connects the 3 Hun and 7 Po, disperses into the immaterial. The remaining 2 Hun (1 usually drops off) with the Sin Sik attached to them end up reincarnating and entering the womb of a new mother, connecting to another 7 Po. The Hun are stronger than the Po, but all are relatively weak still. When the 2+1 hun reincarnate, one can sometimes stray... If it ends up in a mother's womb without the others, it leads to a miscarriage and can also cause other deviations if it gets born. The child usually doesn't live long or has major impairments. Yang Shen is the progressive result of the fusion of the 10 layers of the Yuan Shen into one entity. It is the subtle immortal body which we develop. It becomes our vessel in the spiritual world (Wuji). To form the Yang Shen, the 3 Hun and 7 Po have to meld into one consciousness. The current lifetime identity produced by the 7 Po then becomes the primary identity of the immortal child after it is born from the top of the head. It will look like your physical body, but its a projection. This is why most immortals will present themselves visually as their last human persona, although this is not their true self. They are actually without any form, because after Yang Shen, we still have to disperse our spiritual body into the Dao. That is the highest achievement: Kong, to become the unmanifested potential of the Dao. Empty but not void. That is true emptiness and Kong. So you can think of Yang Shen, as I said above; a progressive result of the unified 10 layers of the Yuan Shen to become solid. Then we have the indestructible body to house our awareness and true self, but they are no longer separate. Everything becomes one and one becomes everything. So it's no longer Yuan Shen, which has a weak energy, but Yang Shen : ) That's the state of the Shen Xian. The difference is that in Taiji all these things are separated from one another, while the cultivated Yang Shen body is unified. What we think, speak, feel and act becomes one. Awareness is our self-awareness. Without our awareness, it's like we don't know we exist. Awareness can be expanded, but it can't be cultivated like typical energy. It's actually quite interesting. This is why it needs a body. Yang Shen is a type of body that we develop, but the body alone is not functional, so the awareness must integrate with it to become actionable, and exercise volition and will. So that awareness can express itself through the body, otherwise we just have awareness which on it's own can't do much and the spiritual body (yang shen) which on it's own can't do much either. The driver is useless without the car and the car is useless without the driver. Just like here in Taiji we need a physical body to manifest our awareness, in Wuji we need a spiritual body to do the same. Can I get some sources on all this stuff you just said here? What do you mean by sources? Are you asking me to give you a link to someones else's recorded experiences? By that logic aren't you just going to also ask them for a source or will they be more reliable than me? How do you judge that reliability? It's not a matter of how many people can confirm the same thing. They could all be liars and scammers and cheats and crooks and just because something was written in the past doesn't make it more valid. So if you are looking for the records of a spiritual practitioner. You just got them in my reply. That's my source. But please don't believe me. Find it out for yourself. That is the only way. Sources and books are just another persons opinion, no matter if they are dead or alive. We must find a method to confirm it ourselves. All this about Yuan Shen, Hun and Po is just the information in a nutshell. There is a lot more to know, but it does not help us in anyway with our spiritual cultivation. Thanks in advance. No worries : )

I appreciate that, Pavel. Thank you. I just wanted to voice my opinion of what seems to be an emerging trend; one I don't really find conducive to overall harmony in the forum, but those are just my feelings : ) Most of the new Wuliu members that joined recently have a different grade and air about them to those that were previously active here, now temporarily banned I believe, so I'm pleased with your arrivals, especially that of AAK, who has facilitated very productive debates thus far. I think there are already translations, but its always interesting to see new interpretations. Please share.

Not just, Brian. He is also the "greatest" Russian scientist of them all.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like there has been an organised consensus among your schools members to register on this board in the past week and open up a new thread every time you want to make a new point on something. Often you will gang up on one person who doesn't agree with your views. What's with that mentality? As if your arguments are stronger in numbers or something? The whole Daoist section is turning into a Wuliu Pai forum, with every other thread being started with the aim of discrediting another member on the board... Isn't it possible for your school members to be a little more organised and use 1 or 2 threads to post Wuliu related things, as opposed to 10? It's easier to keep track for starters.

What a repulsively conceited response. Your acting is so transparent. If you're really as genuine as you profess, just join her QQ group. It is evident from awaken's reply to you, that she similarly has no interest to entertain your pointless questions, and for the ones that actually have to do with practice, as she has said: read her posts and you will find the answers. Excluding the Chinese words, incase you're having a hard time with the dictionary or asking many of the Chinese speakers here for help, there is more than enough instructions in her posts that is clear and concise.

@dwai

Not just for women, but also for men to express themselves more femininely : )

That depends on how you practice while you are alive!

So you want to know how Taoist women treated men and how Taoist men treated women several thousand years ago, so you can apply that to modern life? - How are traditional gender roles "important" to us in the present time of our lives? I'm genuinely curious, lol.

Are you kidding around? She has shared SO much already. Just click on her user profile and check all her posts on the forum... What is her teacher's name going to help you with? Maybe she improved on her teachers teaching and what she has now is even more refined? Isn't it better to focus on her since you want to learn from her? Surely what she has learned from her teacher will be reflected in her own teaching? This is so silly. It is like going to a martial arts class for the first time and asking the Shifu. "Hey, Shifu, who was your Shifu?" "My Shifu was XYZ" "Oh ok, great I will sign up for your class now" Won't you even challenge the guy to a fight first? Maybe you can beat him already....................... Don't be blind followers people. This is turning into extremist spirituality akin to a following of religious zealots. Use your wisdom to discern what is NOW. Find the wisdom in what is presented to you NOW.

1) Since all superb Taoist alchemical ways are related to cosmology , an arena of modern physics, why people don't pay more attention to it ? Taoism views human body as a miniature of the much bigger cosmos, so there likely is somewhat relation/similarity in between the Magic gateway ('玄關') , the most important issue in neidan practice , and the black/white hole ? Dao > Wuji > Taiji Taiji = All physical phenomena, both particle and wave. Planets, Moons, Stars, Galaxies and Universes and Black Holes, are all part of Taiji. Xuan Guang is an opening to Wuji, not Taiji; so material things cannot pass through it, but awareness can. 2) The highest Taoist achievement is said to be attaining Shen, a special form of Wisdom , what is its relation to AI or other forms of human intelligence , even to the iOT ? It has a personal local aspect which relates to your own personal experiences ie: past lives, memories, talents, emotions. It has a global aspect which relates to the collective consciousness of the Dao and absolute truths, which can be accessed directly. It has a foreign local aspects which relates to the experiences of other souls, which can be accessed on request and at the discretion of the respective soul. Human Intelligence is the result of data collected by the 5 senses of the body which generate idea, memory, belief clusters that layer over one another over the years. The first to be created during our formative years, usually 3 to 6 years, are the most important, because once those layers are built up, every other new stream of data that is snapshotted has to traverse through this medium of relative ideas. So the new relative beliefs have to refract through the old relative beliefs. In other words the rate at which we lose our connection to our Yuan Xing is not linear, it is exponential. AI is just AI, you know what that is. It's a product of human intelligence, but it lacks WILL and VOLITION. Even at its highest point, it will always function as 1s and 0s, no matter how much information it can reference and connect to give the appearance of genuine intelligence. It will always lack the essence of spirit which is something which few people can achieve, talk less of reverse engineering it to infuse an AI. The only way I see that happening is if somehow DNA was manipulated to rewire the seat of a humans organic intellect to that of an AI core and then use that DNA to conjoin an egg with a sperm and let spirit do what it does and develop a biological organism which is a hybrid between organics and electronics. It's theoretically possible. The only problem is that the AI probably couldn't keep up with the amount of information that is being processed by our senses every second of the day. Where would it store it? How would the Yuan Shen upload the information from the AI to record it as it does other former life experiences? Will it be dull and stupid due to its inability to process information quickly enough? Who knows. Science will tell us one day. 3) Taoist daozhan (collection of Taoist classics ) is so huge that to exploit it involves issues of text mining and big data , anybody ever thinks of talking about it ? That would be a waste of time to me. At the most it would be entertaining. 4) Forever youth is what Taoism affirms , it involves issues of skin care, regeneration , DNA.. that seldom people here touch. Modern science is innovating very successfully in all these fields. I reckon in another 50 years, the only thing that will prevent people from living for a very very long time, say another 50 or 100 years on top of their current age, will be primarily money. Daoism stagnated for a VERY long time. I always say that if you look back at the sages. They were always innovating, introducing new ideas, introducing new inventions and EVOLVING culture. That was several thousand years ago. Look at Daoism today. What advances have we made? Still sitting around 3000 years later, discussing the old master's books. What a god damn shame. Then again, if we're so stupid that after several millenia we still can't agree on one thing, we sure as hell aren't gonna innovate, lol. If any of these ancient schools that claim their members never die were so genuine, we would have heard about it in the news and science would have started investigating it. Alas, we know where we stand. At the end of the day. It's not about how much time we have, but how we use it. If we assume most people will have an average life, its more than enough to make some very very solid work in cultivation. 5) Acupuncture nowadays is widely applied on animals/pets : dog ,cat ..when they get sick , but can it be applied on a parrot , dolphin or octopus ? What forms of distribution of qi on them ? Say, how the DU channel runs on an octopus ? What acupuncture points we should choose when curing a dolphin ?What is its relation to biological holography ? From what I know it is being done in veterinary acupuncture, even for dolphins. Who managed to map the acupuncture system of these animals and when did it happen? Who knows. It's a good thing the animals can't speak....