effilang

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. I wouldn't judge people so harshly, AAK, for not being able to answer. It is after all a lengthy answer depending on how in-depth you wish to go. I usually have long posts, but just thinking about starting to explain all that makes me shiver. We don't have to know the details of how one energy form converts to another or how a nuclear reactor operates, so that we can switch on the lights at home or make a cup of tea. Many of these transformations happen because they happen with good practice and not necessarily due to our knowledge of them. We can stoke the fire and miraculous transformations can happen of their own. Do we need to know how exactly, no. Everything has its nature and its way. If we pacify the mind as a form of resistance, all things will follow ziran and express their divine nature, without effort. Yes, I agree there is a time to do and a type to stop doing in practice, but even the time for this can be felt if one refines their sensitivity. I know plenty of people who do know any terminology, cannot recognize any charts or pictures, or know what is going on, but they have made much more progress than those that have spent years studying it. Maybe the philosophy of the Dao isn't always the best way to judge someones level of practical achievement. Most spiritual experiences are ineffable beyond a point. All we can do to communicate them is reduce them and cram them down into words and symbols so the mind can understand. Even so, the mind does not know what it does not know. All it can do is imagine it until it experiences it directly, at which point, who cares if you can explain it? : )

So does that mean that the true teacher's book which documents his methods is good enough, or did the teacher purposefully give wrong instructions to hurt others? : ) If I know that 1 + 1 = 2 and I go to teach first grade maths, I will not write on the board 1 + 1 = 3. I don't think that the benevolent sages of old, wrote down instructions with the aim of hurting people. Yes, they used a lot of substitutes and symbols, but the instructions were still accurate and that is why people were able to achieve results. Just like If I said, Potato + Potato = Potatoes All that is required of the student is to understand that Potato is in the singular form, then he can deduce that "Potatoes" means 2. I know many people who meditated on their own for a long time and penetrated into the divine realm where they found a spirit teacher to guide them further yet. What you're arguing though is that one cannot even get to THAT stage without a human teacher. Let me ask you this, ok. It's a very simple question and I want to see if you can answer sincerely from your heart. Were you born with the idea that you cannot achieve it without a teacher, or was it taught to you?

You will have to wait for AAK's answer on the first questions, as his tradition is more familiar with that I think, because I see that you are saying we need to project to create the spiritual body, then come back into the body again for something else? Ohh.. wait I understand what you're saying now. So In houtian when the immortal child is born, what we call Xiao Shen (baby or small shen), we usually have to bring it back in to protect it, just like a new born baby. Especially because it is still unintelligent due to our not completing the fusion with awareness yet. So it is naive and susceptible to attack. So yes, it must be withdrawn into the body to continue the process of maturation or melding with our awareness. In Xiantian the Xiao Shen does not need protection because we are wrapped with divine energy, so we have no reason to withdraw it, but projecting the Xiao Shen is not fully synonymous with entering Wuji. Just like the energy of the Ren and Du meridians can change its property to synchronize with divine energy, but the meridians don't have to move. Nevertheless, the projection or birth is important, because it is part of the maturation process of the Yang Shen. Just like a physical baby cannot begin to live until it is delivered. There is also a difference between someone giving you a rubber hose to use to give yourself water (divine energy) and jumping in the sea. So, what im trying to say is that, whether the Yang Shen is outside or inside the body, it is always connected to Wuji. We can absorb divine energy inside the body or outside the body, but for houtian practitioners its safer to recall it back to the body to protect it while it matures, but they still continue to absorb divine energy from Wuji, just a little more differently. The frequency of our awareness is what allows us to channel and sustain the state of Wuji through which we absorb divine awareness. So its not an ability triggered by the Yang Shen, but by our awareness. That's why during initiation we trigger the Shen in the apprentice, so that there awareness can tune the radio to the right frequency immediately, then we just wu wei. So there is no need for the Yang Shen to MOVE in a physical way, because it is beyond space-time and inter-dimensional. So by being here, it is also there simultaneously. Our awareness and our soul also has this property, so actually a part of the human is always connected to the divine 24/7, even before they begin Neidan, even just after we are born, but our conscious awareness of this is what triggers our interaction with it on a practical level. So houtian builds a trigger to activate this, while xiantian methods start with the trigger, we just pull and fire. For houtian practitioners, after the Xiao Shen is born, they cannot abandon the body, they must continue to cultivate for a long time until it is mature and aware. That's why houtian also places such a big emphasis on the physical body, because they need it to live as long as possible to finish the process, but in xiantian in XYP, after our energy congeals into Xiao Yan Shen, even if we die, HFS just guides us and protects us in the divine realm so we can continue to cultivate there and absorb divine energy. This is why in xiantian in XYP, we don't focus on the physical body beyond basic health. We have no diets. Nobody has to be a vegetarian. Eat what you like, do what you like, drink what you like. Like Lu Dong Bin eh? - It does not affect our spirit work. That is naturalness (ziran). No rules. The Dao is the way without a way. That is why the moment we trigger real Neidan, it's wuwei from there on. The mind has no business at this level : ) In essence, after our Yang Shen begins to fuse with our awareness, it is like our awareness is delivered from the mother Earth (Taiji), that granted us the experiences necessary to evolve our awareness trough lifetimes, and into the spiritual world (Wuji), then it must mature (transfer/upload) together with the developing Yang Shen to become one. PS: If breathing is involved with the MCO, it's still Qigong, because the breath is needed to support the movement of Qi. Later when the awareness integrates with the Qi, breath is not needed to fan or move it. Just mind.

I'm curious about the notion of Buddhists developing the body. If we're speaking of the two major forms of Buddhism, IME from living in monasteries and meeting bikkkhu and bikkhuni, that have been practicing upwards of 30 years in the sangha, I had yet to find one that was not feeble bodied and weak and there was never any body cultivation, only awareness and wisdom cultivation, but that lacks the development of the divine vehicle with which the awareness fuses: Yang Shen. In fact they even advised against doing physical exercise to enhance the body as it "attached" our awareness to the the body. My issue with most Buddhist practice is that it is forming: You have, the 4 noble truths, the 8 precepts, renunciation, completion and generation stage practice visualization etc. All these have sets of rules to be followed, which help to point one in the direction of detaching from worldly life. Do not do this, do that. Do that, do not do this. Visualize this, not that. It is forming, and the form that those rules create tune the mind to a certain frequency; that is why the mind of a typical Buddhist has a form; the Buddhist form, fashioned by their many rules and literature. This form has its own frequency which supposedly takes one to the highest goal, but the highest goal is the Dao and the Dao is formless, so how can the conceptual form of rules synchronize us with the highest goal, and how can form take us to the highest which is formless? Kong = emptiness. Empty, but not void. So something is missing there. The immortals I know are happy, laughing, enjoy pleasure and delight and love to experience and appreciate existence. This type of attitude is very different to the principles of Buddhism which encourage detachment from senses and abandoning the world to live a holy life. Even Nirvana means to extinguish or blow out (the fire of the three poisons), but In Daoism we grab the bull by the horns and jump on it's back and enjoy the ride. We are here to experience. It's very different. We embrace the world, while Buddhists tend to look at is as illusory and avoid it. There is no illusion, the world is very real and our experience here is also very real and very important. Why come to Earth, this beautiful planet teeming with life, creatures and experiences waiting to be had, if we were to simply hide away from it and seclude ourselves? Daoism began by following nature. Nature does not hide away from itself, it embraces all. I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening. This is how Buddha discovered Dhyana. He described it as being born of seclusion and convinced himself that we must move away from life to achieve it. Later when he left the palace for the first time, this further developed his idea that life was Dukkha and we must "escape" it. I'm sure that If I was kept in the palace all my life, fed grapes, got 8 hand massages from pretty ladies all day long, and pleasure and delight was all I knew of life, SURELY, when I left the palace and all I saw was sickness, death and old age - I would quickly develop an aversion to the reality of "life". That is why Buddhism looks at life so bitterly. It all stems from Buddha's initial reaction to reality and the idea about life as being something we must escape from, because his basis for this comparison and the conclusion that he established thereof was his privileged and lavish royal life. If we look at the story of the three vinegar tasters, we see that: - Kongfuzi said it was sour, because the world was imperfect and laws and regulations were needed to "correct" it. - Buddha said it was bitter, because the world was filled with suffering and a method was needed to "escape" it. - Laozi said it was sweet, because the world and all things had their inherent harmony, and rules only caused resistance against this natural flow, which needed not any "way" to be achieved, because we are already it, and so he looked at life positively and as having a sweet taste. What is the purpose of spiritual cultivation? To develop the spiritual body that can fuse with our awareness so we have a vehicle to traverse the spiritual realms. We cannot create a spiritual body in the physical realm so we must first SHIFT our awareness to move from the physical realm (Taiji) to enter the spiritual realm (Wuji). The awareness actually has this multidimensional property. Once the awareness has shifted into Wuji, we can begin to create the spiritual body (Yang Shen). Then when we fuse the awareness to the developing spiritual body, we can slowly begin to operate it. It's like we transfer our consciousness to it so it can absorb it fully, but it's not immediate, it is gradual. That is why in some books they say that after the spiritual child is delivered from the top of the head into the spirit realm for the first time, it is still dull and stupid (just like a newborn baby) that has to absorb data through the senses to develop it's intelligence. The difference is that our intelligence has already developed as adults, so we just transfer it and fuse it into one body, then gradually the Yang Shen becomes operational. This is why, even though we get access to our former live's information and talents, immortals project themselves in the vision of their final earthly body and its corresponding awareness. That is why it is SO VERY important to develop your intelligence and wisdom on Earth. Here is where we can do it, because there are also OTHER PEOPLE here. If we were alone, there is no way to advance, right? - Because we cannot interact with anyone. Nobody can challenge us to make us angry, or jealous or anxious. IF nobody or nothing is there to make those imperfections come up to the surface, how can we know they are there, waiting to be refined? Can you see the importance now of entering society and being a part of life, vs leaving it to go into seclusion? It is like shooting our potential for wisdom in the foot, but also for karma resolution. So we must live life as much as we can, it's for our own benefit. The spiritual body of the Dao itself cannot be inflicted with pain. That is why some theories claims that the Dao was so great and perfect, that it could not fully fathom its own perfection and infinity, so it spiraled down into physical existence so that through the imperfections and limitations of the physical body it could know itself completely, know its angers, know its frustrations, jealousies and pains - and then through that experience perfect them and rise above them to realize itself as Dao, in essence knowing its perfection through knowing its imperfection. It's an interesting theory : ) IF, we don't develop this intelligence and wisdom so we can refine our awareness and negative Yin characteristics, when what happens when we begin to develop the spiritual body and meld our awareness to it? I think you guessed it already. It cannot develop past Yin Shen level... Because we did not refine the Yin qualities. I know monks who have been in the monastery for a looooooooong time. Longer than my time on earth. They thought they had overcome all their negative characteristics, why? Because in the monastery everybody follows the rules, so nobody makes you angry, everybody is kind and compassionate. It is like trying to find a virus in a medical cleanroom; its very hard. So how can you know to refine your negative traits if they are never aroused? When they leave the monastery for the first time, they fall apart because the first person to insult them triggers them immediately and their whole wall of achievement crumbles in front of them. The best swords are made in scorching fire, beaten between the anvil and the hammer, sparks flying. So, the idea in Houtian is to raise our awareness from Jing to Qi to Shen after we reach Shen, then we are starting to push the membrane of Taiji - when we break that membrane, our awareness enters Wuji for the first time. HERE. We can begin to cultivate the immortal spiritual body by absorbing the divine energy of Wuji into the spiritual body to solidify and strengthen it, just like the fetus absorbs the mothers energy to develop. So, in Houtian we begin to build a bridge from one side of the cliff to the other. When we get to the other side, we then start to cultivate the spirit by absorbing divine energy into the spiritual body to feed it and sustain it, so that it can develop from the spiritual sperm and egg (outer and inner medicines) to the zygote (great medicine) and from there turn into the embryo, then the fetus, then the baby (Xiao Shen Xien), then the baby is delivered from the top of the head to continue its growth. So before we can begin all this, in Houtian xiulian, we must ACTIVATE the Shen and breakout of Taiji, then we can start to ABSORB the divine energy from Wuji directly. In Xiantian xiulian, we skip the building of the bridge entirely. During initiation our SHEN is activated on day one. Then through our assigned Hu Fa Shen tunes our awareness further so we start to absorb divine energy from Wuji from day one. Our spirit becomes wrapped with divine energy like a cocoon. That is the golden aura that wraps around every Dao Yu during initiation. Then when we sit down to practice and invite Hu Fa Shen, he guides our awareness to stay in Wuji, so we continue to absorb divine energy and our Yang Shen just develops naturally. So we enter Wu Wei in our Jing Zuo from day one. Then the transformation just happens automatically, no You Wei necessary at all. The reason I say that our awareness is guided by HFS even after our SHEN is activated, is because your awareness cannot adjust in just one day after the initiation. We are used to having our awareness focused on our acquired earthly mind, so in the beginning stages of Xiantian practice, Hu Fa Shen will guide our awareness, and keep it in Wuji until we become conscious of its ability to shift between Taiji and Wuji, then we can independently MOVE it without Hu Fa Shen's guidance; and we just reside in Wuji and absorb divine energy so our Yang Shen grows. This is why during initiation many people describe seeing the falling flowers and dancing snow, which is usually something you experience around the final stages of Taiji practice in Houtian when the immortal body breaks out of the head for the first time. So the key is in the divine energy and absorbing it so that we can cultivate Hun Shen to Yin Shen to Yang Shen. As someone who has practiced both systems, one of my greatest fascinations is connecting the dots between Houtian and Xiantian in terms of alchemical procedures, sequencing, timing, energy routes and meridians. I want to try and connect it as much as possible. My masters have no interest in the idea and I don't blame them, because when you have something that is working, you just go with it, but I feel like I have my feet in both of these ways, so I will do my best over the years to keep finding new puzzle pieces and putting together the grand picture so we can find the subtle points of both approaches to spiritual cultivation for the benefit of all : ) Many people think that Shen Xian or Tian Xian level is it. Like that's it. There's nothing more after that, but that's not the case. The Dao is infinite. So we are always always refining and Xiu Xin Yang Xing and preserving our Yuan Xing. I'll give you an example: Hu Fa Shen can see the future, but there is never only one future. Every given moment in the present can lead to multiply potential timelines and outcomes. So even though HFS can see what is going to happen, we as the student have the final say, because we have the power of free will. So that means we have the power to change our mind at any point and alter the future. So Hu Fa Shen can see one timeline and say, this is the most beneficial one for him, I will give him some small advice. Then because we are stubborn, we don't believe HFS, and say no, it can't be. I will do something else instead. Then after a while we realize we made the wrong decision and our life is a bit harder now. Then HFS facepalms. For them it's tricky because they cannot really interfere with our life significantly. At the start they help a lot. If you slip your HFS will hold you up so you don't fall, but later as your wisdom matures, they just "watch". If you slip, they just watch to see if you will correct yourself so you don't fall down. If you do fall down, they just "watch" to see how you will pick yourself up. So HFS, even though they are Yang Shen and already Shen Xian, through teaching us, also refine themselves be continuing to cultivate their Xiantian Wu Jing Shen. For example If Einstein was speaking to one of his colleagues, he could probably speak very easily at a very high level, but if you put a 10 year old in front of him, regardless of his wisdom, Einstein would be forced to find a way to communicate his wisdom to the child in a way he understands. That would help him refine his patience, his compassion, his understanding, his kindness and his flexibility. So even with the Daoist Shen Xian, it is the same. I am cultivating. My masters are cultivating. My Shifu is cultivating. My Hu Fa Shen is cultivating. Tai Shang is also cultivating : )

This is correct from one point of view, but there is another dimension to your answer which you have not introduced. The process of creation is more akin to this: Dao > [Wuji] > Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing > [Taiji] > Jing > Qi > Shen So while from a human perspective, it's correct to say that we start with the body. In reality, we know that we are not the body, so we can see that by the time we get to post-natal form (Jing), there is already quite a lot of transformation or spiraling down from the energy of the Divine Dao. So the question is, after that has been said, does the spirit begin with the body or does the body begin with the spirit : ) The soul is at the center, always. The beginning and the end. The minimum necessary vessels for Neidan to happen are the qijing ba mai. In our tradition, in particular, not even all of them are needed, but only the first two which form right after the soul fuses with the zygote at the moment of conception; & these are Ren and Du. Again, perhaps this is in the differences between the starting point of Neidan in XT and HT. I cringe a little to call Xiantian Xiulian Neidan, due to where we start the process of spiritual cultivation, but it's a word which communicates a clear enough meaning. If the sperm and egg conjoin, but the formless soul does not infuse them. Life cannot be produced. If you haven't started working with the pre-natal energy then it's not Neidan yet. It is just Qigong. If it's Neidan then it's only necessary to work with the qijing mai. The physical body is for physical energy cultivation and the spiritual body is for spiritual energy cultivation, but the spirit cannot be cultivated with post Jing, Qi and Shen, which is why after actual Neidan starts, Wu Wei takes over and we simply reside, doing nothing and everything gets done. If we are still doing by way of the body, then it's still You Wei, which means we have not touched Wuji yet. If we have not touched Wuji yet, then we are still cultivating the body. If we are still cultivating the body, then our awareness has not broken out of Taiji yet. If our awareness has not broke out of Taiji yet, then we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai. If we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai then we are practicing postnatal Qigong. The Qijing Bamai don't just disappear after we are born. They are there, in the background, but to access them we have to tune the frequency of our awareness to that vibration again, the vibration we have when we are still in the womb and just after we are born. There is always Qi flowing through them. It's not like they suddenly open up when we begin to practice Nei Dan. IF they were not functioning we will die. Ren and Du are always working. Some people get confused when someone says, we have to open Ren and Du. They are already opened, but what changes is the state and quality of the energy that is flowing through the Qijing Bamai to produce a different effect to that of the post-natal Qi that primarily takes care of our organs and biological functions. So it is like we access a different dimension of these mai that post-natal Qi cannot touch. If we set up the body initially, so that it is healthy. It is so that it will not disturb us during Neidan. But setting up the body is not part of Neidan, maybe something like a foundational or a preliminary phase. Nei Dan is about producing Da Dan. Da Dan is formless and the basis of Yang Shen, which is also formless (Wuji).

For the heavy karma like death, there is no way. We have to come back and repay it with death to close the karmic loop and neutralize the relationship. BUT If during your life you focus on cultivating the subtle immortal spirit to the point that when your physical body dies you can leave Taiji, and you only have minor karma left to repay. THEN it's ok, you don't have to enter Taiji again for a new natural birth to live life as a human again. You can sign up for a duty and become a helper or a guardian or a teacher and pay your debt off that way through guiding someone in their dreams, or appearing as a vision or giving them subtle advice about life. OR... OR... maybe, you can even become a Hu Fa Shen to the person/soul you didn't manage to meet during your life (ie because you hid away in a monastery) and repay the karma back through teaching if it corresponds with the weight of the karma. It's not linear. There are different options. The best option is to: 1. Cultivate our subtle spiritual body (Yang Shen) 2. Be a part of life so that karma can unfold and we can meet our karmic soul-counterparts to collect and pay debts. 3. Generate Gong De through selfless deeds. 4. Develop our wisdom and intellect. Then we can guarantee at least that when we die, if there is any heavy karma we have left to repay, like death, we can post-pone it for as long as we want and cultivate in Wuji before we have to enter Taiji again to repay the karma of a natural death. It also guarantees our wisdom will allow us to go deeper into Wuji after we die, instead of getting stuck at the Yin Shen (awareness only) level and being forced to eventually reincarnate again. AAK. This was in reference to what you said before. We have the same principles in our school also. Awareness + Yang Shen = Xian Shen (complete attainment) If we cultivate awareness only and wisdom without a subtle body that can transport it in Wuji, then we can't go deep into the Dao, because we lack a spiritual body to transport us (Yang Shen). As one of my masters says, awareness is the light that is projected by the lamp, while the lamp itself is the body, which can either be Yang Shen, Yin Shen or Human. All determine how deep we can penetrate into the Dao. It is the same on earth to move our awareness around the earth so we can experience life, we need a physical body.

Well I have never seen any difference in the product of practice between women and men in spiritual cultivation, both develop Yang Shen and I say this having have far more women in our school that we do men. Yin and Yang collapse into Wuji. There is no woman is different from man here because there is no more man and woman. Today I am a man, yet I have been a woman in my former lives, but also a man. I have been homosexual and heterosexual in those past lives too. How is it possible if spirit has one sex? Do you think you have only been a man through all your lives? Don't mistake the appearance of a spirit with its actual form. One is just a projection the other one is Yuan Xing. Again, I feel like our discrepancies here may be due to the differences in Xiantian and Houtian xiulian. I think it's very interesting to try to make those connections and find out why one is different in yours, but not different in mine. Then we can draw a complete map.

Yes, both are just the experience of being and the evolution of consciousness and awareness. A human is not the same. We've come a long way to evolve to the status of humans and our awarenss is different. I actually like to blind fold myself every other weekend between 3 hours and 8 hours, so joke is on you haha I think it's a good practice : ) My point was about whether a blind person who wasn't told his was blind would know he was blind, not whether one that could already see, voluntarily blinded himself. Of course, "knowing" before hand changes everything, but we are always in a state of NOT KNOWING what we DON'T YET KNOW. Does that mean we are out of balance? Because if that is the case, then we are perpetually out of balance, because the Dao is infinite and this is reflected in our cultivation. What I was trying to illustrate is that by not being aware of a relative state of balance one cannot know that they do not fit within that norm, demonstrating that often ignorance can be bliss, since that which is NORMAL anyway, is a relative expression of another persons mind and opinions and not a form of absolute reality, which is void of mind. One commedian made a joke one time about having sex with a deaf girl. He wondered what the deaf girl's moans of sexual pleasure would sound like compared to the typical moan of a woman, who all seem to sort of moan the same way after hearing each other, he said : ) Maybe she would sound like Godzilla? Or Chewbacca? Which one is more natural then? In which case, is nature only that which man does not touch or is nature also that which man creates, man himself being a part of it? I did : ) In our school we work with immortals every day. While they can project as males or females and generally associate with their last human form, their natural form is a state of completely unbinary and asexual energy. And there is a law of the soul which is also projected into the Yuan Shen; FREE WILL. It is a fundamental right, so even our sexuality is down to Taiji, it is not absolute. The human body is a product of TAIJI, it cannot be absolute in any form. It's a simple law. If things could be absolute here and if there could be physical immortality, there would be no need for separate realms ie: Taiji and Wuji and physical immortality would be the highest goal instead of spiritual immortality as the focus, but we know that we leave this realm to go somewhere else, where there is no physical body or form unless created by our own awareness. Free will is very important. The Dao does not deprive a soul of choice, but we must bear our consequences. Even immortals cannot escape their karma, they also have to take care of what is left, especially for the ones that practice immortality by going away to hide in the monastery. If life cannot touch them, because they are so removed from society then how can they ever neutralise their karma with the souls to which they owe a debt? The Dao is like flowing water, if we are out in the open it will wash us all the time. If we build a brick wall around ourselves and a brick roof ontop of our head, it will still get to us eventually by eroding the rock. The question is are we going to be dead by then? : ) That is why if we look back at the old sages, they were all part of society in one way or another. Again this is due to immortality not being an on and off switch, but a progressive development. Your karmic debt cannot just disappear. How is that fair to the souls to whom you owe it? So if you killed 1,000 people and then you "become" an immortal, that's it, you're off the hook? How do those souls some of which have incarnated specifically at this time so they can coincide with your presence complete their goal? Some wait many life times so you can meet in the same place on the physical plain to resolve your karma? What happens to them? Life and death can only be repaid by life and death. Some other types of karma can be broken down to make it easier, but some cannot be negotiated. Back to the orientation stuff. If I'm born a girl with a physical body but environmental and pyshological factors predispose me to a male gender identity, I can alter my body through hormones and even get a penis transplant. If I'm born a guy I can also become a girl. If the spirit governs everything and Yuan Qi factors into it during early development, then why would one ever be born with a female body but the gender identity of a man or vice-versa. A hiccup in the perfected Dao? None of these physical alterations change the polarity of a person's energy, but again, that does not stop one from practisting Neidan and there is nothing to be corrected, IMO and IME. I do not agree than Yuan Qi is responsible for ones sexuality. The Yuan Qi can contribute to the determination of SEX, but not SEXUAL IDENTITY. I am heterosexual through and through, but If I decided that I wanted to go and have sex with a man today I could, who knows I might even enjoy it eh? We have the power to chose. The power of free will can never be stripped form the Soul. That's our highest right. We're going into gender identity here and nature vs nurture discussions and that's gonna go on forever, so maybe it's better to just say that we have different opinions on the matter and agree to disagree on this one : ) Well in my life, both are normal, because there are many things that I schedule, such as drinking water to keep hydrated at certain intervals. So again, there are no absolutes. The body can communicate it's needs to us or we can communicate our needs to the body. Its relative. That's Taiji. Most of the time I chose what to eat and keep track of what I haven't eaten. So it's quite normal for me to go to the kitchen and think to myself "I haven't had omega 3 this week" - Let's make fish or lets have some ceareal with chia seeds. After all we should know the condition of our own body and what we are giving it, when and how much. My body can't communicate to me the desire for a specific thing like omega 3, yet I know its essential to me and the body can't produce it naturally, so I have to use my mind. It also happens that I desire to eat something, but the reason that EVER happens is if I think about the thing in my mind. If I sit here now and remind myself of the taste of a certain childhood food, of course the memory cluster that registered the data from the 5 senses associated with that experience will trigger and ill be able to see it, taste it and even smell it depending on how in touch I am - AND naturally, that will make me want to eat it, but that's a voluntary action, we are in control of it. Yes. My point is that it's not rare. In one culture it's normal in another it's not. If you served a rat to someone in one Country they would throw up. If you served it somewhere else they would lick their lips. It's due to the relative nature of mind and their environment. It's Taiji. Again I don't understand this notion of "becoming" an immortal, as if it simply just clicks and it happens suddenly. It's a very progressive development. And I don't agree with the second sentence either. We are born as women, but we can chose to be and act as men. We are born as men, but can chose to be and act as women And again here we are getting very very relative and touching cultural views of masculinity and femininity. More and more men nowadays are becoming more in touch and open with their emotions, does this make them gay or increase their chances of becoming homosexual because they are closer to women who usually have much more open hearts? The way we develop prior to birth is due to the soul (asexual) and the prenatal jing, qi and shen and qijing ba mai, but the way we become after that, hetero or homo is due to how we develop at a very early age AFTER we are born obviously. The soul is beyond duality and so genderless, it cannot be responsible for sexual orientation and gender. If sexuality is something so vague and abstract yet you claim that it cannot change beyond what it is born as, then what does that say for the more physical aspects that we are born with in Taiji, like flesh and bones? You claim those can be transformed into the highest formless state, so why not something like sexuality which is already at the level of the acquired postnatal Shen? Surely that would take much less effort? How can the immaterial spirit that is beyond duality have a sexuality which is an expression of Yin and Yang? That is not Yuan Xing, but just a presentation.

The little ones are no fun

Spiritual Immortality has to do with the cultivation of the formless spirit. That is the goal of Neidan. Any type of genuine spiritual cultivation focuses on this spirit which can only be cultivated in emptiness, which means one must already have found a way to reach the highest vibration in Taji (Shen) then push even deeper into the Dao to enter Wuji, where this transformation can begin and continue to take place. The highest vibration of post natal Shen in Taji, is the lowest vibration in Wuji where spirit cultivation takes place and the immortal spirit is matured, incubated in primordial Qi that is the essence of Wuji. Thus any definition which has the word "immortal" in it, implies that one has at minimum managed to project their awareness outside the realm of the physical Taiji and entered into Wuji, directly eliminating the concept of man and woman, which is of Taiji. If there is still man and woman as a defining characteristic in a persons practice, then they are still practicing in Taiji, which means they are still yet only cultivating physical energy, which will die with the body and cannot transcend death. When we begin to cultivate our Yin Shen to become Xiao Shen and from Xiao Shen to become Yang Shen, it may have our features, but that is not its true state. IF anything a bisexual is CLOSER to the state of the formless spirit than a heterosexual Yes, but I am not talking about dual-cultivation or bedchamber arts and someones sexual orientation does not alter their underlying structure on the most fundamental level. Our psychology can have a great effect on the rest of our body, but it has limitations. A homosexual person or a bisexual person or an asaxual person or a pansexual person has the same potential and energy system to cultivate the immortal spirit as a heterosexual. The cultivation of the immortal spirit in Neidan has nothing to do with someones preference between fucking or getting fucked. Pardon my French :> Ah. The traditional argument. Wu Liu If i'm not mistaken is around 500-600 years old? So if my school is older than yours, does it mean I'm more traditional than you? I never said anything about men or women, I was just talking about homosexuality and bisexuality in Neidan, in particular. Furthermore at the Di Xian level, one is already well into the cultivation of the immortal spirit, which means they are already working with their awareness within Wuji. How then can there be the notion of man or woman in emptiness? This is not true emptiness, but relative emptiness, which means one has not shifted out of Taiji yet, but is still trapped in the physical realm. If you see an immortal as a man or a woman, it is only because they project that way. When you connect to one and see a man or a woman, ask them to show themselves in their formless state, and you will see the difference : )

Sort of like the Quanzhen with Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism? Coincidentally, they are called the "Complete Reality."

Interesting. We have similar principles in our tradition, only we do not have to finish our cultivation to get to the point of being able to continuously transform Wuji energy to Taiji so that we can influence another persons human energy (post jing,qi,shen) - it is due to the way in which we connect our Ren and Du. It's different from other schools.

Hmmmm... I think that it might be a bit of a contradiction to try and use the body as a means of establishing an objective absolutism. The physical body is not absolute in its structure or function. Even when things appear to be the same, they are different. As long as there is the acquired mind in the equation (and that is always relative), the corresponding Qi and Jing will always be relative to that individual. After all, we know that in Taiji everything is relative. Looking at the Taijitu you posted above we can see that clearly. There is only one thing in relation to another. Good and Bad are also relative. The Dao and nature do not judge us. Thus there is only karma in the consequences of our actions. The human body is a very bad example of a constant, IMO. Deviations, I'm sure you agree can come in varying degrees. In terms of the human being, these can be physical, energetic and psychological. One persons prescribed medical treatment, can kill another. How do we "balance" someone's taste who has had a glossectomy? What about the ones that are born without a tongue at all, are they perpetually out of balance with nature? The brain can also change physically overtime in a way which makes you taste differently. How do you re-balance that? Is invasive surgery part of natures balancing act? Can a human restore the balance of nature? Is a human, nature? Is man-made technology, nature? If you never tell a blind person he is blind, and he lives on absolutely fine, who is to say he is out of balance? Only a relative comparison can bring about an idea of in balance and out of balance, IMO. Many of the medical standards which are used to diagnose people and measure peoples vitals have to be adjusted from person to person relative to their constitution. It's all relative here in this realm. The only reason spiritual cultivation can be achieved only through 1 way; emptiness, is because the spirit is not of this realm. That's why you have 10,000 Qigong systems, but only emptiness can lead you to cultivate the spirit. One deals with Taiji energy, the other with Wuji energy. You said homosexuals are a deviation in Neidan, but Neidan has to do with the cultivation of the spirit that is asexual. What about bisexuals then? Do we make an exception for them because they can make babies? Is it? Or maybe mind is given to people to establish for themselves what is good and bad? Some people like to eat raw rat, others like to bbq it, others like some tasty rat intestine's soup. I've heard that some enjoy to suck the rat's eyeballs right out of its skull. Is it disgusting? How does that taste in your mind. Good or bad? To the people that eat it, it tastes fucking delicious. There is no way to find absolutism in the physical body of Taiji, only relativity. There is a gate in the body that can lead us to find the absolute, but it is not of the relative aspect of the body. In TCM even the Wu Xing are relative. Even when we speak of balance there, one cannot be without the other. How can homosexuality be treated as a deviation when Neidan is about the cultivation of the formless spirit? Immortals can appear as a woman or a man....

I will see you then and bring my hairdresser to make sure you're not using any hair dye

AAK, Are you talking about the Intersecting Yin Heel Vessel when you say Yinqiao, or is it something else? If it is, I think it's common in acupuncture, albeit not used for the same purpose at all. I vaguely recall a memory of a text to something of this degree: The true immortal man breathes through the heels, referring to the Yang and Yin Heel Mai. We don't use these in our tradition, but I know that it is part of Houtian xiulian and a necessity in the work of the great medicine after the internal and external agents have been combined. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

*cracks thread door door open slightly and pokes head in to see if will not get hit by flying book" oh, ok... phew. The coast look clear I just want to pop in quickly, to drop a few ideas to stir some thinking. I'd like to address the topic of: Can know alchemy of ones self vs Can only know alchemy from a teacher. I will not speak in a matter of fact way so as to not offend anyone. Again I just want to maybe trigger a thought process. So. There is a theory in Daoism that says that while the fetus is undergoing development in the body up until around the first year post delivery into the world, the primary operating nature is that of the pre-heavenly nature and spirit (xiantian zhi shen), while the post-heavenly nature (houtian zhi shen) has yet to fully seat itself on the throne of active consciousness. So it is like the Xiantian Shen is the rightful Emperor that gets overthrown by his Military General; Houtian Shen. This condition of being is represented by the empty circle of Daoism; Wuji: For the purpose of this illustration, for now just imagine the white circle to be a glowing orb of radiant brightness; an orb whose complex of spiritual energy in one aspect contains all our former life time memories and experiences. It is pristine and clear and tranquil and nothing gets in the way of it radiating its information outwards into the world through the medium of the physical body which it now occupies. Because there is no obstruction from the acquired mind yet, it is said that at this age we are as close to the mind of the Dao as possible in earthly form : ) So a wise guy once said: Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, Can you avoid separation? Attending fully and becoming supple, Can you be as a newborn babe? As practical evidence of this, we have many instances throughout our lives when children around this age and slightly older, are able to tap into talents and information from former lives and express them through their current body. Things that they have not learned yet themselves ie: amazing mathematical feats, amazing feats of artistry, playing instruments, speaking foreign languages, recollecting event from their former life on earth etc. As development progresses, the 5 bodily senses continue their operation, absorbing new data from the environment and creating new relative concepts based on their experience of reality - the acquired consciousness begins to form, but here's the catch. At this point only one consciousness can actively seat on the throne, so as the acquired mind develops, the light of the primordial mind begins to wane... becoming eclipsed like a moon that looses its brightness, only slightly visible on the edges. Thus the 5 thieves, steal the absolute radiance of the primordial spirit and replace it with relative ideas, where an IDEA is the coagulated result of data absorbed through the 5 external senses and conveyed to the brain by electrical impulses to fuse together into one "relative belief". Essentially, we can both look at the same cloud in the sky, but because you are a biologist while I am a vegetable farmer; you might see the cloud to be in the shape of a complex protein, while i might see a simple potato. Yet, both experiences of life albeit it relative are both completely valid. What if my eyes are less sensitive to the red wavelength and the color of an apple we both look at appear slightly different? What the skin on my hands is rougher than yours because I'm a blacksmith while you are a sake maker that has some of the softest skin on their hands? How would some soft silk feel to each of us relative to our senses? This is relative reality. What is absolute reality? It is that which the Houtian Shen cannot touch and it It is in this question: What is the silk and what is the apple when neither of us are there to experience it?: Empty, but not Void. How does it smell then, how does it feel, what is its structure and composition when there is no external consciousness to project onto it? When the acquired consciousness thus obstructs the original mind, we also begin to lose our conscious access to this former lifetime information. Then the child who could draw like a master artist forgets how to do it and the one who could speak another language forgets how to speak it. It has not disappeared, but because the bandwidth of the connection between the Xiantian Zhi Shen and the Houtian Zhi Shen is limited (like an ethernet cable), the one that is drawing more information gets priority. And which of our minds is costantly active? The acquired mind of course, the thinking and intellectual mind. While the primordial Xiantian Zhi Shen resides in stillness. Further evidence to this is that when one practices properly and begins to spark back the original mind into burning bright once again, we begin to recollect our past life events, our inherent talents also begin to trigger again and much more. So the connection between Xiantian Shen and Houtian Shen is always there. The potential of the primordial is always seeded in the postnatal nature, ready to bet watered. How do we do it? By turning the light of the awareness around from projecting outside to project inside. When the awareness does not go outside and follow thoughts, when it resides in stillness, it begins to match the vibration of the original mind. This is why they say: Leave your front door open, leave your back door open. Let your thoughts come and go, just dont serve them tea. This is why it's very important for parents to carefully monitor their children at this age when they express some type of skill or knowing beyond knowing. Because if they catch it, it is like they hold a thread to the original mind and if they cultivate it by encouraging their child in this activity, that thread alone can serve to maintain a strong connection to the Xiantian Zhi Shen, giving that child a much greater chance of success in spiritual cultivation that other's whom did not receive that type of nurturing attention and were left to completely obscure their original nature, as naturally happens in Taiji. This is also why those artists who catch that thread and cultivate it into their maturity, when they perform their art they always feel like they are having a divine experience. Whether it's playing music, or painting or doing a mathematical equations. It's because they were lucky enough to have good parents that encouraged their intuitive and innate divine creativity rather than supressing it. That's why I believe what Sir Ken Robinsons said in his famous TED talk; that school kills creativity, but as a Daoist, we can see the effect and rapidity of loss is much deeper than just creativity. So, now that the foundation of my question has been built. Here is my question. Do you believe that those whom have made Neidan progress in their former lives are incapable of accessing, retrieving and rekindling such information - bringing it to the foreground of conscious activity, youwei, where its experiential wisdom can be used to propel someone along the path of Neidan, at least to the level of their former life time's achievement? The Yang energy of development takes quite a while to PEAK before Yin begins to arise strongly, maybe even up to puberty? Is this not one of the reasons why children make such good students of spiritual cultivation, because among other things of alchemical significance, they are far more in touch with their intuition and original mind as a result of having a less dominant Houtian Shen? Would such a scenario not constitute the possibility of Neidan practice without the need for a teacher? Maybe they will eventually need a teacher, because they only got to 60% of the way in their former lifetime, but how many people today even get to such a number? How many even get to 10% or even 1%? Anyway. Just speculating as usual *flies away

How cool would it be if one day some 60 years from now, when we are all old and gray, we can come together and have a nice dinner with tea and each share and demonstrate what we have all attained on our journeys? Can you imagine that spirit of brotherhood and camaraderie? No ego. No arrogance. Just dumplings, soup, cake and hopefully a lot of "magic?" Loving brothers and sisters of the same origin meeting to share in the wonder of life? Can we do it? I think I like this spirit much better than fighting with each other : ) After all, we are all just walking each other back home, hand in hand. Here is a picture of our Grandmaster initiating 3 Quan Zhen 全真 "Complete Perfection" Tao Shi (Taoist Priest) from Tian Hou Gong (Tian Hou Temple). We have been to many other temples and schools in China to do the same for their priests. Different Schools, but they are together in one room, all Xiudao together. Can we do it like them, or are we too special in The Dao Bums and our schools too good for one another? I think we will be surprised by the result if we try it : )

Yes, sadly that is the case with most schools, but the method doesn't really matter in this case. Even in Xiao Yao Pai, there are some people that fall into your category: 1. Their wisdom could not expand because of the desire for power, so Hu Fa Shen does not advance them. 2. Some people just want to be called a Daoist officially, but its not something on paper, it's in the conduct, life, heart and spirit. We have these cases in our school also. They lack the drive to continue to work and transform closer to Hu Fa Shen. 3. Very common for us also. Some people just get lazy. Just because we have Hu Fa Shen doesn't mean we have an on and off switch. We must give 50% and HFS also then can give 50%, that's how it works with us also. 4. We have our political issues to deal with also, but we are a spiritual school first, so that's our priority above all things. So at the end of the day. We still have no evidence of their claim and so we must consider it speculation until proven otherwise. We when can get a proper account of people who are not dying in their system, but ascend to heaven instead, then we can know it for sure. Until then we are just playing with our imaginations. Emitting heat and light, the body does naturally. Someone that cultivates their Taiji energy (physical) can enhance this property to the point that it appears "supernatural" to someone else, but its all still very far from physical transmutation of postnatal Qi to prenatal Qi or spiritual cultivation for that matter (which happens in Wuji). These manifestations are still only of the physical energy. When their physical body dies so will this function of its Taiji energy. It cannot be carried over into Wuji.

Yes, but much of this is also manifested in other systems. Going back to my question again: If the people of their tradition transmute their physical matter and disappear into emptiness, what happened to the current master's master and that masters master? You didn't ask? Were they buried or did they all disappear? If so, how can the unmanifested formless pirmordial Qi of the Dao be buried? Surely their students were there to send them off when they personally decided it was time to go, so there must be some evidence? No obituary? No death certificate? The investigation must go to the root and not just skim the surface. So these questions must be answered also.

No doubt about it. The wisdom is clear. Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate the fact that you are here. The more people that are different that join this forum the better. It's only through our differences that we can change. In nature we cannot see our face without the reflection of a surface with mirror properties. In the same way I believe we need other people around us to act as that mirror so that we can see ourselves and where we are and use our wisdom to question the differences between what we believe we are and what we actually are. We all refine ourselves in this way. Whether that mirror is a book, a human teacher an immortal or like the Daoist of old nature itself. If we didn't do this we would be stuck in one place. We must Xiu Xin Yang Xing all the time. So I appreciate all that is going on in the thread and everywhere else in the forum, as long as it is civil and respectful and grounded in facts as much as possible.

It all looks really good, but let's not be blind believers, ok? Let's use some logic and common sense instead. Some basic wisdom : ) Let's ask in our minds. OK. So they claim these results. Surely this system did not appear for the first time in this generation, right? Can we go back one generation to look at their master. Did he get buried or did he disappear into the Dao? How about we go back, 2 or 3 or 4 generations to look at their master's masters, what about them? Buried or turned into the Rainbow Body? Then after we ask the question we must investigate it. If you believe it then maybe you can call them or e-mail them to ask them about it, so we can be sure : )

Thank you Mr Khokhlov, I think there is too much talking and not enough walking in the thread. You guys have spent posts upon posts discussing other peoples training diaries. That is all that a book is, just someones thoughts and experiences written on a piece of paper. We can never know it for real, and that many people follow the book does not make it evidence of truth, just like the bible : ) If the methods are so clearly explained and the information in the books is true, then anyone with mediocre ability should be able to attain that level. We should be able to see and know people that are not getting buried and cremated but disappear into the Dao, at least in the past century but we have no verifiable proof. I am not reducing the importance of educating ones-self about things, theory is also important to some extent, but I strongly believe that one's school should be able to demonstrate their claims. We live in the 21st century now, nobody can use the argument anymore that the don't want to backup their claims, because demonstrating it would be so fantastical that people couldn't handle it or they would get persecuted or thrown in jail for superstition. Even in China where you could get thrown in jail for superstitious practices, I guarantee you that they cannot deny empirical evidence. It is just that when most schools and masters are called out, they are fall short of being able to offer any proof of their practices and are exposed as charlatans. I don't like to get involved in these discussions about the old master's opinions and personal experiences, because our interpretation is relative to their reality, but never our own reality which we must cultivate. In our school if we ever study any book, our aim is not to follow, but to lead ourselves to develop the wisdom those masters themselves had that allowed them to generate those experiences. Once we get those experiences then we can determine if there was truth in what they said, but even then you are just one person. It is only one proof and on it's own it cannot stand, but if 500 or 1000 or 10,000 people get the same result and make the same claims - then even the scientific community will be prompted to investigate it, because obviously "something" is going on beyond subjective reality. I respect everyone's dedication to what they deem valuable, because that fire comes from the spirit, but the object of that dedication does not always have the same value for me. I can answer most of the questions in the thread that both sides are asking each other, but I prefer not to lock myself in there, because we are just dancing around the old master's words. I would prefer to challenge the texts and beliefs when possible and help to evolve things. Philosophy is stagnating Daoism and preventing it from evolving. If we look at any of the old sages, they were pioneers, they invented, they created, they introduced, they innovated. After Zhang Daoling instituted religious Daoism, ceremony and literature began to freeze people within the books and chain their mind from moving forward. Nature is always transforming. In my experience the Celesial realm and the immortals have made some absolutely massive changes in the way they operate over the years in order to adapt to the way human society and our beliefs and consciousness have evolved. They never just stick to one way. They have adapted a lot to us in incredible ways, which when they are revealed one day will immediately break some aspects of many Daoist school's belief systems. My opinion, Sir, is that the very fact that we have people coming together and sharing their minds is in itself amazing, but I just wish there would be less hostility between people, and more of an adventurous and playful nature. Just like children playing in the sand together : ) The Daoists were the SCIENTISTS of antiquity. Unsubstantiated belief would never fly. There had to be evidence, something that could be reproduced in others, regardless of their way of life, their job, their religion, their race or their nationality. If it cannot be reproduced in others regardless of their constitution, then it is relative. If it is relative then it is not the highest Dao.

@grassmountainsage I'm familiar with Lama Thunderbolt, he was quite the thing on here back in the day. Do you believe that when Max dies he will not be buried like everyone else? If he is buried or cremated (very likely), what happens to the whole theory of transforming the physical tissues? Does he still eat, drink, breathe and excrete? How can it be if he has become a manifestation of primordial Qi? What of his Masters through which he learned this method, did they not die and get buried? Let's wait and see what happens when he dies, then we can resume the investigation

I think that the inability of post-heaven Qi (Taiji) to transform into pre-heaven Qi (Wuji) should be relevant in every Daoist discussion concerning Xianshu and Xiudao. Many old sages spent their lives underlining this point over and over with the aim of preventing people from practicing methods that kept them perpetually trapped in Taiji.

@grassmountain I appreciate what you're saying, but I work in design and post-production and also do photography in my spare time - and can reproduce these images in around 30 minutes on my own. You just need to take two photographs: one with the person there and one without, then play with the first a little bit. Here is a funny one of my hand. Maybe I can say that it's a little bit the essence of my physical body turning into Yang Shen? If the person in the photograph was projecting his Yang Shen, then there would be a physical body and next to that Yang Shen, because they are not one and the same. One is the indestructible immortal body while the other is the impermanent physical body. So it would be minimum two entities and the physical body itself would not be distorted. If the person in the photograph has absorbed his physical body completely and transformed post-natal Qi into pre-natal Qi................. .................. then he probably wouldn't be spending his time in this realm and using his energy to sustain a physical state without VERY good reason. What I mean is that the native frequency of Yang Shen naturally resides in Wuji and is manifested as Kong. To vibrate low enough to enter Taiji and fit within the 400-700 nanometer band of visible light so the eyes can catch it and lower yet so the hands of another person can feel it, and THEN to sustain that state indefinitely, would be an absolute waste of energy. Someone who had such a speculative level of attainment and transmuted his physical essence into primordial Qi, would not need to eat, sleep, drink, excrete waste matter or even breathe Qi into their body (Qi as in air in this case). Do you know if the guy you spoke to had to do any of this? Maybe his physical body was behind the camera taking the picture while his Yang Shen projection was the subject of the photo in front of the camera? We can speculate a lot, but where are the real accounts. Here is a picture of our Shifu performing an initiation over 20 years ago while photoshop was still in its infancy. I don't think you could even UNDO back then because RAM was so low. You can see the camera has captured a manifestation of the projection of his spiritual energy, but can we be sure? It's just a photo : ) We must know the truth ourselves and experience it. I have and I know that immortals' physical bodies are buried just like any human. It is post-natal Jing, Qi and Shen that cannot be converted into Pre-natal Dao. Post San Bao is one thing Pre San Bao is another thing and Yang Shen is also another thing which we must "create". The physical body is just a vessel and a medium for transformation. It is like the beaker in the laboratory, you can mix the chemicals inside to create something, but that something doesn't absorb the glass of the beaker, we just wash the beaker and put it to dry or we can recycle the glass so that it can be used for something else like a wine glass. We just contribute the body back to earth and return back to nature what is left of what we have eaten, breathed and drank.