effilang

Hi, Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts: Here you said: Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi? Here is the heart of my question: As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? . A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example? Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students. Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person? I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that. Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated. How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it. I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit? If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan? So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial? Those are my questions : )

Hi, Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts: Here you said: Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi? Here is the heart of my question: As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? . A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example? Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students. Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person? - AND if this is so, then doesn't it imply that nobody from your school has achieved that level yet? I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that. Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated. How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it. I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit? If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan? So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial? Those are my questions : )

Hi Mr. Khokhlov, I know that there's been a lot of posts flying left and right, so you might have missed this one. I'm just re-posting it here, because I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts on the matter. Do you think you'll have time to answer it in the near future? Thank you in advance : )

Hmmm.. How can the ignorant student incapable of effectively vetting his master due to his own lack of practical experience, truly recognize a true teacher from a false teacher, especially if the teacher is incapable of providing immediate evidence of the results which are being sought? Is to trust such a teacher not a stupid action of itself or are we reduced to the option of blind faith vs wisdom and common sense in these scenarios? In houtian xiulian, one human master practicing immortality is teaching another human student practicing immortality. How can the master teach that which he has yet to fully accomplish himself? It seems that he would only be able to take the student as far as his own achievements, before having to revert again to the uncertainty of books. If a school is teaching immortality, then there must be at least one immortal in the school and by your definition this is someone who gets young instead of old, has escaped death and sickness. Where can we find this person in each Daoist school today and why are they not a little more popular, because if there isn't at least one immortal in each Daoist school, then it means that to some extent everyone is chasing the other persons tail and the dog in front actually has no personal experience of the final state. What happens in such a case? Can we speculate that there are other reservoirs of instruction and guidance that one can tap into to in order to continue their cultivation after such a stage and if yes, then in what shape or form do you think they are represented, since books cannot be relied on fully? Do you believe that it is impossible for one to learn to cultivate their spirit on their own? Surely at some point in humanity there must have been a time when nobody had yet begun spiritual cultivation, then suddenly someone was triggered to pursue it. Did they not learn on their own or did an immortal come down to teach the first human? Because it begs the question, where did the teacher of the first person to practice spiritual cultivation come from? Must there always be a transferred method or is it possible to attain samadhi, reside in emptiness and have the primordial Qi of the Dao transform our spirit automatically through wu wei? Slightly unrelated but three nice texts come to mind: --------------------------------------------- "When the nine-year practice is concluded, in its non-doing, one’s Nature is of its own perfect, and in its formlessness, one’s Spirit is of its own wondrous. When Spirit is wondrous, its transformations are inexhaustible, and its states of manifestation and non-manifestation are unfathomable. When Nature is perfect, its wisdom illuminates all directions, and in its being numinous and pervasive, it can suffer no damage. Therefore one can can divide one’s being into a myriad beings that manifest themselves in limitless ways, while one’s own body of utmost reality dwells in the realm of utmost quiescence, silent and ceaselessly abiding in non-doing. This is because one’s Nature, one’s Spirit, one’s form, and one’s existence are joined in their reality with the reality of the Dao." --------------------------------------------- "What should we expect? Should we really think it curious to never have known an immortal? At a hundred paces the eyes do not see everything clearly, so we decide to see certain things as existent and others as nonexistent. Surely because of our ignorant discriminations there will be many things in the world we will decide do not exist. This is like saying, " The ocean is no deeper than the depth I can measure with my finger. " How can a short-lived insect discern the age of a tortoise, or a shrub reason the life span of the great ch'un tree? --------------------------------------------- Unborn and imperishable Is the original mind Earth, water, fire and wind A temporary lodging for the night Attached to this ephemeral burning house You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames In which you're consumed.. ---------------------------------------------

Hello A.A.Khokhlov, Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking. One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated? Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal? What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality? Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated. Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from? In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated. Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment? In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being? Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated? Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity? Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De? It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early. Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100. Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages? I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature. In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others. I'm curious to know what you think.

Just set up an appointment, you can find their email on their website. You can say that you are investigating Xiao Yao Pai and our Shifu, Li Shang Hu, then just ask them if it's OK to see the official list of China's Daoist clans. Have a nice trip. Your senior A.A.K. said that he was going to check us out. I'd like to invite him to our next initiation so he can investigate us in person, free of charge. If he is a the level to communicate with the divine realm, I'm more than happy to introduce him directly to my Hu Fa Shen, so they can speak together. Either way it would be nice to meet him. He conveys himself with dignity and respect in his posts, so I can see why you are his junior, as you severely lack that conduct in your communication. Its nice to see a more refined representation of your school on the forum.

Much obliged.

Thank you. Your perception here is very shallow. It's very easy to trigger spontaneous Qigong, one just needs to reach a very high level of relaxation, then the body will automatically begin to correct itself to match its original blueprint. If I have a physical condition that needs my hand to move one way 50 times to alleviate the issue, the movement may be similar in both Spontaneous Qigong and Guided Shen Gong in our school, because the anatomy of the human body is the same in both cases. The difference however is that one movement is triggered by our Hu Fa Shen, while the other by their body, although Hu Fa Shen might decide to employ a different method all together. It really depends on them and the state of your body. To make it clear since you're having a hard time understanding this it seems; we connect to another conscious being (Shen Xian or Tian Xian) to receive instructions, while spontaneous Qigong practitioners simply follow the impulse of their own body. Can you differentiate between a Daoist Shen Xian and someone's own body? Of course you can't "see" the difference in a video, why would you? - LMAO Again, you're demonstrating your lack of experience with these states. Actually Yang Shen can vibrate on all levels between Wuji and Taiji, so yes it can also be a subtle body at the level of physical (Taiji) Qi. You are just a little tunnel visioned because you are looking at it from a limited perspective, or you clearly wouldn't say these things. We also call the subtle body the complex of the physical Taiji energy that flows through the electromagnetic channel system of the body, but this is physical energy so it will disperse together with the body when it dies. It cannot transcend Taiji, so it is not a focus of spiritual cultivation in our school and does not equate to Yang Shen, however Yang Shen can tune down enough to manifest at this level - which is how Hu Fa Shen guides us during Xiantian Qigong, during which he or she controls our breathing. The word "subtle" just means that something is difficult to describe. You can check the dictionary for that, and believe me Yang Shen is difficult to describe.... adjective 1. (especially of a change or distinction) so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse or describe. Your mind Is trapped in philosophical terminology.... I'm sure you know all this and probably know I know it too, but you're just making really lame attempts now at trying to contradict me, because you've run out of ammunition and it seems all you like to do is shoot. Oh well : ) Here, have some hearts - Don't be so bitter.

In that case I am waiting for you to continue, but before you do I just want to point out that your above sentence illustrates to me your inexperience with this level of practice. Here is what I mean: A Xian is not something you just become suddenly after some level of practice. It's not an on and off switch and both Yin Shen and Yang Shen skills are cultivated gradually as one progresses; with some of these abilities being triggered during the first day of initiation in our tradition. Every Dao Yu in our school that practices Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu is actively developing their Yang Shen. I will not go into detail about it now, because I'm actually creating some illustrations in the background accompanied by explanations about all this and will be posting them sometime next week, as I am on holiday then and will have time to finish them up. You're more than welcome to have a look if you're curious. They will clarify most of this in much more detail. A picture is worth a thousand words they say : ) Furthermore, every single Hu Fa Shen in our school that has been authorized by our celestial head; Tai Shang Lao Jun, is either a Shen Xian or a Tian Xian and so Yang Shen. This is why our initiation during which our master makes a request to Tai Shang whom assigns a Hu Fa Shen to each new apprentice; is our empirical evidence, because each person directly has their Yuan Shen triggered and hey can begin to see, hear, feel, smell and physically interact with their newly assigned teacher. I'm not talking about subjective communication here. We can actually sit and have a conversation with our Hu Fa Shen and ask questions, advice, and receive information which we otherwise do not know on our own. This is also why we can learn more physical arts through Hu Fa Shen, like Martial Arts and why they can guide our body to move, because they can vibrate down to the physical level from Wuji. Every time they guide us, they must also "tune" down their energy so that it can interact with the physical energy in Taiji. Because our Hu Fa Shen are Yang Shen, we do not need to enter a trance for them to connect to us. This is very important, because we do not support or encourage trance systems. One's awareness should always be growing and expanding with your wisdom always developing. You should never practice anything that reduces your consciousness. Here is the definition of a trance: noun 1. a half-conscious state characterized by an absence of response to external stimuli, typically as induced by hypnosis or entered by a medium. Trance systems lower the awareness and suppress the consciousness of the individual in order to reduce the frequency of their Shen so that it can match that of the possessing spirit. That is why those that practice shamanism always talk about being possessed, but in our school the word possession has a negative connotation. Here is an example of someone entering a trance in a tradition of Daoism, so that the Monkey God can connect to them: Daoist Shamanic Trance Practice 1 Daoist Shamanic Trance Practice 2 Just watch how they lose their intelligence and humanity and begin to move like a crazy person. This can never happen if you connect to a Yang Shen spirit. You will always be lucid, aware and in control and further more a Shen Xian would never require all that ceremony... If someone's Shen is strong and their consciousness is vibrant, a spirit cannot possess or connect to you, because they can't even synchronize to the vibration of a healthy human Shen, so if you must enter a trance and reduce your awareness, it is so that you can make space for the possessing spirit's awareness to enter our body. This is one way to know the quality of the spirit you are connecting to on a very basic level; whether you must enter a half conscious state or whether you can stay completely conscious, aware and able to employ your wisdom and all your beings faculties, physical and spiritual. This is also another reason why it is possible to become susceptible to possession by a spirit if we are shocked, heart-broken, depressed, horrified and terrified. Any condition that severely lowers the vibration of spirit and makes it weak. When our Hu Fa Shen connect to us, we always stay in a completely aware state and our wisdom is always expanding. Their consciousness is far above ours in frequency, so when HFS connect to us, it's them that actually have to lower their vibration to synchronize with us, but its never really on our level so much, they tend to stay just ahead, so that we are always guided to follow them deeper into the Dao and deeper into Wuji. They can connect to us anytime and anywhere on request on the post natal Shen, Jing and Qi level or on the prenatal Shen, Jing and Qi level. They can be seen, heard and felt. None of this is anything fantastical in our school. This is our basic practice that we follow every day when we cultivate. If I posted all the testimonials here from our students, people would think I am writing a fantasy novel. Those who did not cultivate Yang Shen cannot penetrate deeper into the Dao after their physical body dies, because they did not develop their subtle body (Yang Shen) which is the spiritual vehicle, but only their awareness and wisdom. That's why I often talk about fusing the awareness to the Yang Shen to produce the one unit of being which is fully conscious, but also able to exist in the spiritual realm beyond Taiji. The Yang Shen takes time to develop and refine from Hun Shen. There are some basic states: 1. Awareness + Physical Body = Conscious Human 2. Awareness + Yang Shen = Conscious Shen Xian 3. Awareness + Yin Shen = Conscious Gui Xian If we are 1, our physical body will die and we will reincarnate. While we are alive the physical body supports the awareness, but because the physical body is a product of the 5 elements and Taiji, it is impermanent and material and thus cannot itself escape the Taiji realm. All things born of Taiji are born, die, decay and are reborn. This condition is cyclic and we will continue to be this way until our wisdom expands beyond material things and we begin to pursue the spiritual. Usually it's around this time that people start to find meditation and start looking for a school or a master as they start to understand there is more to us than just the physical dimension; so they search for a way to connect to that aspect of our being and maybe to develop it with a good method; maybe with your school, maybe with mine. Whatever gives good results. If we are 2, we have begun to develop our spiritual body (Yang Shen) and we have began to fuse our awareness to it, together with all of our being. Everything reverts back to one. Ni and Xiantian Bagua vs Shu and Houtian Bagua. After we have connected or transferred enough of our awareness into the developing Yang Shen, we can begin to infuse it with our own basic will and volition and intellect, all the while also connecting to our own former lifetime information and skill, in addition to cultivating the abilities being born through the maturation of our Yang Shen. That is why they call it a "spiritual birth", because when the Xiao Shen becomes conscious; that is the birth of our awareness within the Yang Shen inside Wuji, and we are delivered from Taiji into Wuji for the first time in our own spiritual body, a body that can sustain our awareness in the spiritual realm (Wuji). The physical body can never achieve it. This is why when Jesus was asked what does it mean to be born again, he answered; to be born into the kingdom of heaven (Wuji), but not in a body of flesh, but a body of the holy spirit (the spirit that is whole: spirit body + awareness). Actually the bible has a lot of references to spiritual cultivation as do many other religions, but they fly way over the head of most people and many of them have been distorted over time. When our Xiao Shen is born into Wuji for the first time it is just a baby. That is why in some books like Daoist Yoga; their traditions recommend to quickly retract it back into the body, because it is dull (not all the awareness has been fused to it so it lacks basic intellect and reasoning and is naive like a baby and susceptible to attack). In Xiao Yao Pai, we don't worry about retracting our Xiao Shen after it enters Wuji for the first time, because since initiation we are wrapped with our schools divine energy and it has an apotropaic property. In addition to that, Hu Fa Shen is always there to protect us. So we are free to reside in this transformative state and continue to absorb primordial Qi into our Xiao Shen to strengthen its subtle body while we condense more and more into one solid unit. The farther along this process of fusion we go, the more intelligent our Xiao Shen becomes; then our awareness can easily shift between our Yang Shen body and our human spirit, so that we can act in both dimensions consciously. Without developing the Xiao Shen and the Yang Shen, our awareness has nothing to house it in the spiritual realm, so we must reincarnate and try again to find a method to develop the Yang Shen. It requires both wisdom and energy cultivation. If we only develop power, after we die we cannot go deeper into the Dao, we will be forced to reincarnate again sooner or later if we want to try once more to do it fully. Wisdom, Clarity, Gong De and our Subtle Energy Body (Yang Shen) are what determine how deep we can continue to go into the Dao. They must be developed together. I know some Yang Shen spirits that connect to me outside of our school, and their explanation for he connection is that they say they are very strict in character so experiencing my humorous and playful side actually helps them to refine other aspects of their own personality, by observing and feeling how I react to situations in my own life that they did not have the opportunity to experience in theirs. Most people think that Xian are perfect, they are not. Their spiritual Yang Shen body is perfect and yes, they have refined the Yin personality traits such as jealousy, anger, anxiety to their Yang counterparts, but their personality is NOT perfect; the Dao is infinite. They continue to refine and refine. All Daoist Shen Xian preserve a full sensitivity and emotional range. They can cry and also feel love and compassion. You will never find one that cannot feel. Only in the fantasy books. What would be the point of attaining perfection if you were void of feelings? : ) Because they are imperfect in this aspect is one reason why they apply to be Hu Fa Shen after they enter Wuji, so they can continue to teach and experience challenges to help them refine themselves even further. While our Hu Fa Shen can perceive the future, the future is relative and always changing. Each Dao Yu is an independent human being with free will. They can change the future at anytime by changing their mind about something, so Hu Fa Shen although knowing what needs to be done through divine wisdom, has to deal with our mind that does not always perceive things on the same level of knowing. So that discrepancy between the Hu Fa Shen and the Dao Yu serves as a challenge to the HFS through which they can refine their personality further and also accumulate Gong De. Every Yang Shen has their own personality and they continue to refine themselves long after their spiritual birth into Wuji. That's why we have many different immortals whom have varying status, authority and power and they all have their personalities. Some very funny, others very strict. Some people think that all immortals have the same demeanor, look on their faces and attitude, but it could not be further from the truth. Usually the life in which they finally gave birth to their Xiao Yang Shen for the first time, and the respective awareness they carried over is how they chose to present themselves consciously. Death is just a continuation of life. So, we must develop our spiritual body to house our awareness in the spiritual realm, otherwise when we die, our awareness has no VEHICLE of its own to move where it wants to go, it will just get sucked back into Taiji ad infinitum. In Taiji to express ourselves and create, we must use our physical body. In Wuji to express ourselves and create, we must use our spiritual body (Yang Shen), but we must develop it before we die. If we are 3, then we develop our awareness and some basic subtle body, but because we neglect our wisdom development, we cannot transform further into Yang Shen, because the law of Wuji does not give power to the unwise and the irresponsible. So what happens in this case is when the physical body dies, the awareness has been transferred to an incomplete Yin Shen subtle body. The transfer or fusion is enough in this case to house our awareness in the spiritual realm so that after we die we can actually exercise our volition and voluntarily detach from the automatic reincarnative current of the Taiji law. We can roam about and explore in this state, but we are limited by the quality of our consciousness so we cannot experience the deeper parts of the Dao. To go deeper into the Dao you have to have a pass. The pass for a spirit is the quality of their consciousness and wisdom. So if you have a Level 1 pass because you focused only on developing power and subtle energy, then you will get Level 1 access to the spiritual realms. That is why shamanic systems are not the way, because we must lower our awareness to connect in a trance state instead of raising it higher and higher and increasing the authority of our "pass" in the spiritual realm. IF someone finds themselves in this way, their only option is eventually to of their own accord re-enter Taiji again through the womb of a pregnant mother and begin the life of a human to try and attain Yang Shen. They must work hard to develop their wisdom and refine their acquired Houtian qualities from Yin to Yang. Xiu Xin Yang Xing. Common man, why do you have to say such silly things. Of course I read, but the emphasis on reading is very different in our tradition, because we understand that we cannot know the Dao through a book. What is a book? It is someone's personal experiences on a piece of paper. No matter how much I read about their experiences, It cannot produce my own experiences, just like I cannot experience someones life by reading their diary. We appreciate and recognize the wisdom in texts when we see it, but even when we look at our celestial heads teachings in the Dao De Jing; we take it as his own opinion. Until we verify it ourselves through personal experience, we do not take it as a fact. We do not support any type of belief systems. I've said it before, In Xiao Yao Pai, when one practices well, they should be able to write their own Dao De Jing, but first we must accumulate those experiences and wisdoms ourselves. A book about swimming cannot compare with the experience of taking your clothes off and jumping in the sea, no matter how many people's swimming books you read, no matter how old the book is. So in our school we focus on only what we can experience. That is why I often ask you about evidence, because this is how to prove something, but you always refer me to texts. Anybody can do it. I've always been upfront with everyone. If they doubt what I say and are looking for a path to follow, they are welcome to attend one of our initiations, where they can experience Yang Shen through a direct connection. If they already have a path they are following, but simply want to come and test to verify if its true, again; they are welcome to attend an initiation where they can get empirical proof about our claims. There is nothing binding and there are no strings attached. It's between you and Tai Shang and anybody can terminate the apprenticeship thereafter if they wish to. Black and White. No bullshit. I don't think I've ever said they are not important, but only stressed how important. Again how one determines the importance of texts will directly correlate to the facilities they have available in their tradition for receiving teaching. In Houtian systems this is usually another human and/or texts and books. In our school while we appreciate that they were "sometimes" written by those that achieved some goals, we receive our transmission directly from the respective Shen and not through their literature. This is the benefit of Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. So I hope it makes more sense now why we don't focus on books as much as Houtian schools, our source of education is from the Xian directly. However, please don't tell me to go search a book for someones else's achievements when I ask you to provide evidence of yours. It's an embarrassingly weak argument and I feel like you can probably do better, going by the confidence you demonstrate in your pronouncements, but again, I can only speculate to this capacity. You know the truth in your heart. Anybody can obtain such proofs? Where? After how many years? We have a short life, people don't want to practice a system for most of their life to produce proof. Why? So that after 50 years you can decide if to continue practicing or die having wasted your life? You have to be able to give people the proof NOW on the day, so that they can decide there and there whether to continue with the method or not. One system of spiritual alchemy will take you all your life to master, you can't jump around from one to the other just getting the tips of your toes wet every time. You will never achieve anything. A jack of all trades is a master of none. If a person follows a spiritual system to the end, I don't think they will have time in their life to even test more than one system before they die. So... we must give people the proof on day one. That is why we cultivate, not just for ourselves, but for others. So that we can prove to other's that its real and help them on their way. That is our philosophy, not to waste peoples time. Just black and white. See the evidence, feel it, heart it, know it and then decide if you want to continue studying under your Hu Fa Shen or not. Anybody who calls themselves a senior or a master that cannot offer his type of immediate evidence to a potential candidate, but tells them to practice for 20 years or read some books, in my opinion simply doesn't have any evidence to offer himself, in which case, steer clear. Life is short, look elsewhere for proof. Many schools and masters can offer it, but not all can. Some will enroll you into a program and make you pay them money over and over while you practice what they claim takes a long time to achieve. Its a very convenient business model. If you get one naive student every now and then you can live the rest of your life with a fat bank account. I don't know if your school is like that, but I know others that are. No, I cannot imagine it, because I don't have to. It's part of my daily life and the same goes for the rest of our Dao Yu who practice daily with their Hu Fa Shen. You keep bashing me for my lengthy posts, but keep referring us to lengthy books. The inconsistency only serves to demonstrate your personal bias against me. And for the record, I've never said that old books are crap because they do not mention our schools approach, wow; common man. Don't stoop so low as to fabricate stuff. You obviously have never really read any of my posts, because I very regularly state that the cornerstone of our school and what differentiates us from Houtian and defines us as Xiantian, is our ability to directly accommodate those looking to connect to a Shen Xian from our school to guide them... I honestly don't know what hat you're pulling this stuff out from, Opendao. Our initiation is for the very purpose of activating a disciples Yuan Shen, inheriting The Divine Guidance Art (Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu), registering them in the celestial register, assigning an authorized Hu Fa Shen (Yang Shen) to guide them and commencing their apprenticeship as a formal student of Tai Shang Lao Jun... What did you think we do, offer cookies, milk and dance in circles, lol? I've never actually attacked your school about anything. I've only just asked you for proof, but you on the other hand love to jump to wild conclusions. Me? I can't say anything about your school, because I do not have personal experience with it. It's that simple. 1 + 1, but that doesn't mean I can't ask you to prove it; and so far you've offered no method to support that you or anyone else has actually achieved the results you keep saying are in someone else's books, whom you've probably never even met yourself or are even sure they existed, because they are dead. Don't take things so personally. If you put yourself out in public and make claims about things, it's only a matter of time before someone asks you to prove it. It's part of being a public figure. If you can't offer any evidence outside of someone else's experiences, it's fine. It's not a big deal. I just don't accept evidence as, check this book, because I'm interested in seeing whether your interpretation of THAT book is accurate enough to produce results that you can demonstrate. In our school we claim to learn directly from the Shen and Tian Xian, and we can prove it by connecting a person to one during initiation so they can have the experience of communicating and learning from one directly. No merry go rounds.....

To an atheist, the idea of Immortal Spirits or even spirits of any kind, is also a "religious" thing - and to the Daoist practitioner who cannot connect to the divine realm to communicate with the immortals, this too is just fantasy. OpenDao has a toxic habit of shaping the world according to his own achievements and promptly rejecting anyone who claims he has experienced things beyond this own experiences. That's also why everyone tries to "kick" him from their threads, because he is like the summer fly that rejects the idea of winter or the fish in the well that denies the grandness of the ocean. It's the sickness of always wanting to be greater than others; nothing but a fools errand. I know immortals that are 10s of thousands years old and others that go back to numbers I do not even know how to express, but no, it's all fake, because OpenDao can't do it : ) Evidently, he also claims heavenly mandate cannot be verified, again, because he lacks the ability and wisdom to do so himself - therefore, nobody else is possibly more capable than him, so it must be rejected. There are plenty of "regular" people that can check it. If your system is all that you say it is, then your master should be able to check it also, but then again, you have shown that your are incapable of offering any evidence borne of your own school as you have demonstrated on many occasions by avoiding direct requests for such proof. You are without a doubt the best SU27 pilot I have seen : ) All anyone has to do is paint a missile with the letters "PROOF?", lock onto you and fire - and you will deploy the latest in evasive technology to perform acrobatic miracles in the sky like never before seen. It's pretty obvious that all you can do is talk or you would have offered anyone who is curious about the validity of your practice some empirical evidence by now, but you resort to the role of a conversational ballerina. Those that cannot prove their system works or have a method to verify their claims that can be experienced by anyone else, will of course naturally place anyone who can and anything they cannot explain in a category which is convenient for them to ridicule, but it only demonstrates their lack of experience and their inability to penetrate into the the deeper parts of the Dao. In our school, after we connect one to the immortals, even the hardcore atheists come to know that what we say is true. That's is the nature of empirical evidence. It's impossible to deny the presence of an immortal, just like it is impossible to deny the presence of another person standing in front of you, and that's why we're successful with working even with people from the scientific community, because we do not "talk", we "walk". We do not tell people to check this or that book, we show them right there and then in a way which is undeniable, even to the strongest unbeliever. They can reject it, but they cannot deny it : ) We are not the only school who can do it, but not all schools can do it. It's really very simple. When you make a claim about something, you have to be able to prove it. Talk is cheap. The texts and material evidences that you keep referring people to, which have nothing to do with the results of your own practice or school, because they were written by someone else about their own personal experience, are just excuses for your lack of evidence. And just look at how adamant you are in saying; You CANNOT do it. It CANNOT be done. Well, as the old saying goes... He who claims it cannot be done, should get the hell out of the way of the one that is already doing it. You're absolutely right when you say that Alchemy is not for believers and gossip collectors. - and that's why you have no way to prove your words to others beyond your power to tell people which book to read to give evidence of what you yourself have likely not achieved. And the only reason I am saying this with confidence right now, is because by saying that certain things CANNOT be done, which CAN and ARE being done, it has fully demonstrated to me just how little you have actually accomplished - but again, it makes sense now, because you can't show any proof can you, OpenDao?

Oh the IRONY!

haha, biased much? Why would anyone go somewhere or do something they are not interested in? Free will still exists right? I don't have any "alleged" intentions. You might want to check the meaning of the word. People have posted more than enough testimonials post-initiation to confirm my claims, so it's not something that is unproven. It's already a fact... And for this very special brand of people to whom I extend private invitations, there is nothing to pay. They can come for free. My payment is the look on their faces when they know it's true. What they do with the shift in their reality afterwards is up to them : )

Hehe, it's a little funny though you have to admit, OpenDao. At first when people asked you about evidence, you said, go and read the texts; the evidence is spoken about in the texts. Now that people have started to point out the mistakes in the text, you conveniently back pedal and say it's not in the texts anymore.

I've never deleted people's questions and always answered them. No need to make stuff up. We're all grown ups here. I've only deleted destructive and venomous posts. That's all : ) Let's be fair though, you're calling me out for "word games", when you yourself are the master of the art. I have yet to see you offer anyone a demonstration of any results which you always claim are there. Anytime anyone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and back up what you claim; your well rehearsed reaction is always to deploy chaffs and employ evasive manoeuvres; skillfully pirouetting around the question like a professional ballerina. I'm not even mad, It's impressive every time you do it I always look forward to how you will do it next. Honestly, I'm not even mocking you. I'm impressed. Unlike most people on the Dao Bums, I actually have nothing against what most people claim on here, no matter what the school is. I've experienced enough to know that most people barely scratch the surface of what is actually possible anyway. The only thing that I find unpalatable is when a School (any school) claims to teach something, but can never provide any proof of it when asked, but always have some very good excuse. It's really not that hard if the school is genuine - and it's nothing personal really, when you want to go and learn from someone, you need to test them to see if they have actually achieved the things they teach. I'm not just talking about theory either, theory.. anyone can read and memorise, but any school that claims they are genuine, should be able to demonstrate it in practice when asked. Sure this is not a circus and we're not jumping through hoops to please the audience, and I too often decline the requests, but this is 2016; its no longer good enough to hide behind the guise of mysticism and traditional mystery with the purpose of concealing ones accomplishments in fear of persecution. That's just an old excuse now that is unfit for modern times in most countries. I can say things with confidence about Xiao Yao Pai, because whenever someone challenges me, all I have to do is just invite them to a seminar so they can verify it for themselves. It's that simple. I don't even need to talk. Why waste the time? I can end any argument like that in one line: "If you don't believe me, come and try it yourself." Around this point is when most people online shit themselves, because they don't expect that reply and they are caught off guard. Why don't they expect that reply? Because most schools actually have nothing they can demonstrate or use as evidence of their claims, and because of this for a long time now inter-school debates have been limited by this unwritten, and unspoken, but mutually accepted agreement. It's like some sort of pseudo diplomatic facility designed to save face, and it's expressed like this: Don't call me out and ask me for evidence and I won't call you out and ask you for evidence, this way we can both keep our honour and integrity and continue to run around the merry go round of philosophy and literature. So the reaction I usually get when I reply that way is this: Wait, what?! Did he say come and try it? He's not gonna talk me to death about philosophy and texts? Nope. I'm not. Just come and try it. Unless you're scared of what you might find. And No, I don't mean come and try it and get the evidence in 5 years or 20 years. No. 30 minutes that's all. Normally, after I call their bluff, they just walk away with their tail tucked between their legs, because I've broken their philosophy comfort zone and they cannot stand on the same ground in terms of practical evidence. This is when the real intentions of the practitioner emerge to the surface. Up till this day those that challenge me who prefer to hide behind texts and never show any proof of their claims, have all been invited to come and prove us wrong. How many of those sensei loud mouths have come so far? None. Zero. Why? Because they are scared it is true and that it will destroy their belief system. Even as a student of Xiao Yao Pai, I love to visit other schools, explore new things, meet teachers, and continue to educate myself in a variety of ways. I think that to have this sort of attitude even after you have found something that works very well, is evidence of an open mind. I wish everyone would act this way, instead of locking themselves within the walls of their school and the mind of their teacher, who one day, they might even transcend. Life Is a great big adventure, but let's be honest to ourselves. All of us that claim to offer people genuine results; we have to be able to show people that what we say is true and not just talk about it or refer people to texts. Evidence shows the truth. Evidence dispels myths and rumours. Evidence should not be a taboo. So why is everyone so afraid of showing some evidence if they claim they have it? The level of theatricality is just too damn high. Let's see evidence and results people. To everyone, I say put your money where your mouth is, or try to stop running it - and if you don't, you can't blame people for always looking at you suspiciously and assuming that you're trying to deceive them. Why not just dispel all the negativity and put all the doubt to rest with one swift stroke? Surely it would take less energy than all this. Well, that's what I think anyway. Again, I have no issues with anyone on this forum, be it you OpenDao or Shaman Flowing Hands or whoever else. I actually love the diversity. It's so exciting. All I wish for is that people would stop making conclusions about other schools practice methods without having any direct experience of them first. It's simple. It's logical. It's fair. Even a 5 year old can understand the concept of evidence, surely we can also? I guess it's too much to ask for to be reasonable and scientific. But hey... to each their own : ) Finally, here is a new years resolution for you guys; Lets try to talk less and do more. Sure, The Dao Bums might be a little less interesting in a world like that, but at least it would be easier for people to separate the wheat from the chaff. That's what we're here to help do right? To help others? Or are most of you just helping yourselves? Because if we're here to help others make good decisions about practice, why make them dance in circles? Just give it to them black and white. I don't mean to sound cocky, but either you practice something and can demonstrate it or you can't. Evidence... try it guys. It's not too hard. Just try to give it. You might actually like the positive feelings it brings!

Perfect : ) We actually had a case like this recently in our school with one of our newly initiated. They had a lot of energy stuck in the head and were constantly getting headaches for years. After we started to teach them they have learned now how to relax and found that the energy has begun to move all around the body, ebbing and flowing; from one place to the next; as it should... We have to understand that the mind is "fixed" within the boundaries of its own conscious experiential parameters. It does not know what it does not know, so we cannot employ it to know the unknown - this is redundant. We have to keep an open and relaxed awareness during practice, because any activation of the mind in the early stages will obscure the 玄關 from stabilising. Very nice points, awaken.

Our liberty to compare one thing to another is limited by our experience, and so I do not agree with you. Hopefully the ways you follow will one day cure some of your bitterness towards the more primitive people, who presumably lack the results you only speak of.

The Celestial realm and the immortals who reside in it today, have enacted more changes in the divine law and made more effort to adapt to the evolution of human culture and mankind, than humanity has done for itself on Earth till this day. We are stuck in the old ways beyond our own good and terrified of being simultaneously our own discovery as well as our own adventure. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. People are too scared to lift the pen and scribe their own experiences; they would rather proselytize the accomplishments of others until their dying day and pass away as nothing more that a carbon paper copy of another person's legacy. If one follows the way naturally, he should be able to one day write his own Dao De Jing.

Welcome, Seeker. See you around.

I've highlighted what I think are the most important points for you to investigate. My condolences for the suffering you have had to endure. This too shall pass. As for Mantak Chia's practices... Let's just say I intimately know some of the pain you're experiencing.

I second the whole post. My initial experience at this phase of practice was that the energy from the LDT begins to spill into the belt vessel (Dai Mai) first and that starts to orbit around the waist rapidly, from there it can move directly around the waist to the Life Gate (Ming Men) and up the back or it may first drop down to the perineum (Hui Yin) before trying to move through the coccyx and up the Governing Vessel (Du Mai). It gets very tingly down there when the movement starts, especially around the bony areas like the tailbone. This is good Houtian progress. Keep doing what you're doing. By the sound of It, I reckon within another month of steady practice, the heat will begin to "rumble" and buzz, and then suddenly start to move.

I'd like to give a basic view from the Xiao Yao Pai perspective on how we "see" Daoist literature and how we separate it from Spiritual Daoism as opposed to strictly Philosophical and Religious practice. Canon in Spiritual Daoism (Audio)

It's no problem at all, one of this months newly initiated actually shared this testimonial that you might be able to relate to. They were initiated through shaktipath and had been practising for over 12 years under a Buddhist school. Their transition to Xiao Yao Pai has been flawless. It doesn't matter what you practised previously, what your race is, what your sex is or what your religion is. The only barrier is the mind. If it is polluted by belief systems, dogma and concepts and your cup is full and overflowing during initiation, then Hu Fa Shen may take more time to focus on your mind first. If you continue to practice regularly, you will feel all your prejudice washing away gently, and you will feel happier and less disturbed by people and their personal or public lives. You will essentially embody the "Xiao Yao" nature of our school. Everyone who practises Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu gradually becomes Xiao Yao and overflowing with childlike energy and joy. It is a very common reaction among Dao Yu. Hu Fa Shen can see us on all levels, physical, subtle energy, mind and soul - so they always know how to approach our refinement for our highest benefit. Since we came out of seclusion and opened our doors to the public in the early 70s, we've initiated over 140,000 Dao Yu who all cultivate in the comfort of their homes under the guidance of their Hu Fa Shen; none has ever expressed a physical, energetic or spiritual incompatibility with the curriculum of our celestial branch as transmitted by Hu Fa Shen. The only incompatibility is that of the acquired mind; their conditioning and beliefs vs the non-discriminative and formless nature of our teachings. If you feel that we are too open after you begin to practice and the formations of your mind cannot fit in with our way. You can face Tai Shang and make an official request to dissolve the apprenticeship. End of story. We have no dogma, prohibitions or books to indoctrinate you into anyway of thinking. Our educational approach is formless to reflect the emptiness of Wuji. If you form your mind and attach your awareness to that concept, it will be trapped inside Taiji (physical realm) and it cannot vibrate high enough to exit it and enter Wuji (non-physical realm) - because the mysterious gate of Wuji to which Hu Fa Shen gently guides our awareness, can only be passed when the awareness learns to disassociate itself from impermanent physical phenomena and begins to awaken and embraces its original formless state. Then it is like the awareness synchronises with the frequency of the mysterious pass and suddenly it appears. If we dwell here, the whole spirit will be enveloped with divine energy like a cocoon, which will of itself transform it into the radiant spirit of the immortal body; this is Yang Shen. It is a gradual process of refinement, so we must practice daily with Hu Fa Shen so he can guide and enhance our transformation : )

@Seeker I appreciate that. Although I have to be frank, I don't personally entertain the notion of "belief" without direct experiential and empirical "proof"; something that you can observe happening in the present and that you can test for yourself, but I do understand from your previous posts that your confidence in us is borne from your due diligence and the research you've conducted to dispel your doubts - so as much as I can, I will try to respect that. Forgive my presumption, but nevertheless, I would imagine that these proofs you experienced, while on some intellectual level are satisfying, still might have been be in the form of texts, manuscripts or someone else's opinions, which are not yet the moon itself, but only the finger pointing to it - so I hope that one day we will meet & you can have a definitive confirmation. Thank you for your kind words.

@Seeker Maybe if you have some time we can do a small long distance "experiment". It is at the discretion of Tai Shang. You can add me on facebook if you like: xuan daoji or we can try to do it in the Dao Bums chat, if that is allowed. Again, no promises as this is not at my discretion, but I do have the spiritual authority to officially make the request to Tai Shang to offer you a form of "proof" prior to initiation when there is a full fledged connection and assignment to a Hu Fa Shen. Of course this is not an initiation as I do not have authority to do so at this time, but by Tai Shang's grace he may manifest for you if he deems it appropriate I've already done one of these with a few members here.

@SeekerOfHealing There are plenty of ways to "attain the Dao" as it were, we are just one. Everyone can pick where they go, which one to test and which one to practice : ) As always for those that want to test it, we offer a way to back up our claims. Our ability to actually prove that we can connect people to the Daoist Xian Shen and Tian Shen in our Celestial branch is the primary reason why we don't focus on "talking" in our school, but prefer to get to the "walking", because there is actually a lot of walking to do and not enough time to spend on fruitless philosophy and intellectual gymnastics. Many other schools only have the option of "talking", because they cannot offer any proof, so when you ask them for proof, they immediately begin evasive manoeuvres like an F-16, deploy counter measures and pretend the question wasn't asked, or even less credibly, they absolve themselves of any responsibility and offer you to refer to the texts of history, so you can read about someones experiences who died a couple of thousand years ago, which can neither be confirmed nor disproven. I'm always reminded of this meeting of Kongfuzi and Laozi in times like this: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Confucius visited Laozi dressed in formal elaborate robes to discuss matters of ceremonial etiquette and tried to explain his belief that new knowledge must be based upon old knowledge...but was interrupted by the old master: Laozi: "The men of whom you speak are long since dead and their bones are turned to ashes in their graves." Laozi: "Put away your polite airs and your vain display of fine robes. The wise man does not display his treasures to those he does not know. And he cannot learn justice from the Ancients." Confucius: "Why not?" Laozi replied, "The swan does not need to bathe daily to remain white." then abruptly ended the meeting. Confucius later said onto his disciples: "I know that birds can fly and fish can swim and beasts can run. Snares can be set for things that run, nets for those that swim and arrows for whatever flies. But who knows how Dragons ride the wind and cloud up into the sky. Today I saw Laozi. What a Dragon!'" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Despite all this, I've never attacked anyone's school and have no interest to and I doubt I ever will. I think when one is confident in their practice and their way, the claims and counter-claims of another school will do little to phase them. I for one would certainly never create a thread to try and defame another's tradition with false information, but again, to each their own - and to be frank for me it's actually ok. As they say, the stars shine bright because of the darkness. I prefer to focus on helping others to continue getting positive results and transforming their lives. At the end of the day that's what matters, but again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I'm also entitled to kick people out of my house when they barge in and start to attack me.