Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

And my point is you should go read some western romantic poetry if you want to find that(there is plenty of art and beauty in it). Chinese literature and poetry go hand in hand. And the terms you refer to are, for the most part, written in classic Chinese literature. There is an extremely thin line between Chinese classics and poetry, mostly they blend togther. The rules of Chinese poetry are different to western ones, mostly based on tone(Chinese is a tonal language)and the imagery certain characters placed together creates. The meaning/vulgarity of a word are simply the meaning/vulgarity of a word that are placed on it by your mind. A word is not intrinsically vulgar. Don't get me wrong Trunk, you or I, or anyone, could create some new words today.... but how long would it be before before they were debased? Or laughed out of the English language? People don't talk in poetic terms in everyday life, sad but true. My point was simply that the terms you refer to are not in common usage, and that they were created as a poetic means in order get around the conventions of the day. edit: bad html skills

It's a somewhat unfair assessment trunk. Terms such as jade stalk, and 'playing the jade flute' where created in a time where it was a serious 'no no' to use the correct terms in literature, so these terms where a kind of 'means to an end'. Seriously, I've never heard anyone in China actually use the term 'jade stalk'(except in films about ancient times ie. 'sex and zen' is a possibility). Their usage of sexual terms is actually just as bad as ours...if not worse(and vulgar I might add) I don't think it's the word, it's the manner and tone of the usage, which is lost in a forum. For example, using the above term you used, if I said this to a girl: "yeah! Suck on my jade stalk!", it's much the same as if I used the word cock is it not? However I could change the tone of my previously vulgar sentence and say it in a cute, longing way and it would then, possibly, become more acceptable. Tonality is the key. edit: typo

There is a big difference between perceived Chinese culture these days and actual Chinese culture. The problem being is the lack of access to actual Chinese thought due to the language. Much of what is officially presented as todays Chinese culture is somewhat biased due to the idea of face. Chinese people are guilty of this too, wanting to portray their country in a non 'warts and all' way. They take it all very personally. Anyway, this following link is to a site you may find of interest. This site takes Chinese internet news and the comments of Chinese people and translates them into English, so it may not be so much use for your language practice, but it definitely can provide and interesting window into contemporary Chinese culture and issues. http://www.chinasmack.com/ I will say though, that many of the articles translated are rather sensationalist, as I'm guessing the sites editors obviously want to draw interest. They are though, quite common issues within the society as a whole. There are some some rather pointless articles too, to be fair.

lol welcome back

Recently China brought some Buddhist relics back to be kept at one of its main temples. If I remember correctly they were supposedly some bones of the Buddha(small parts). It was aired on TV, they had a whole ceremony for it. Perhaps it's a step in the right direction, no matter the relics where genuine or not. There are very few Chinese people themselves who will deny the destruction caused by the cultural revolution, when they are being honest. Their not happy about it either.

As something of a summary up to this point, I have to say, at least for me, this post really managed to explain something very complicated in a simple way, so, thanks a lot Kate. Vaj, you answered my question faithfully and in a way that was easy for me to understand so thank you. Everyone put in some nice input that really helped me understand this a little bit more, so thanks to all. I still have trouble reconciling certain Buddhist views, as in reference to Ralis' first post on page one. I think that was an important point before it descended into a bit of an argument. I have no idea how to judge if the Buddhist aim is more worthy than another form of enlightenment. In my view I could only judge this by actually having reached those certain stages, in two or more systems, and then being able to compare them. I'm not sure it would, necessarily, even be possible, as the Buddhist view seems to say it supercedes all the other views, but that just takes me back to Ralis' first point. I'm not saying the Buddhist view is wrong mind you, as I can't, because I don't know. Vaj mentioned the 'eon crunch', and how if you hadn't achieved the Buddhist enlightenment then all the energy of individuals(souls?)would simply be recycled. But as a question to all, had I become enlightened(or at least reaching the necessary stage to avoid the eon crunch)what would I then become? I'm kind of expecting I may get the answer 'A Buddha', but what exactly is that? And how to define that(if possible). Is the Buddhist view that progress is only achievable in a physical state? Can I not progress without a body? And if so, why not? Direct meditative experiences would be a welcome addition to this discussion. Thanks again to all who posted so far.

In England we have to say 'black', I've never heard the term 'African-British', that would be a strange one and would probably raise some eyebrows for some reason. Actually some people I know would consider this quite offensive, as it would be like you are saying they are not really British even though they are British born. It's quite different from when I was younger when the commonly accepted term was 'coloured'. But not anymore. Actually these terms do sometimes cause a lot of confusion around the world. Non-native English people are never quite sure what is the correct term in any one place. I've known several Chinese people who were going to live in America who used the term 'Negro' due to this being the term they had read in English books related to American history. I had to correct them on this rather quickly. But it's not easy to explain. In any case songs, I wouldn't worry about it too much as long as you know the correct term for where you are living...but internationally, yes, it can get complicated.

Bad pc skills.

Ya, I see, I think I'm also a member of that club too actually Garuda Fair point. I guess I have just gotten used to it. It happens quite a lot around here. Occasionally though, you may find a gem in the mud. And that's well worth staying around for. But I get your point. Not that this is exactly related, but the other week I had to go away for a week so my ex came to look after my dog. In any case, when I came back I went into the bathroom and as I looked in the mirror I realized my trip had done me a lot of good, as I looked far more healthy than before, it could even be said my skin had a certain glow to it. It was then I realized my ex had cleaned the mirror. You are probably right. I have been known to be a bit over sensitive on occasions. Which is somewhat ironic as I have on occasions been offensive without knowing it. Well, this was what kind of lead my thinking down that path. I have a problem with this in recent years that I only began to really notice when I first started posting on here. This is due to the fact that I live in a country now where circular logic is actually considered quite normal in some instances. Without my knowledge, I kind of picked up that thought process over a long period of time. It can prove quite difficult in debating with westerners even though I am a westerner myself. So, it can be kind of hard for me to maintain a view that is one thing or another, I tend to go round in circles; I will say though, that at least for me, each time I get a deeper perspective. But I think on occasions it may be highly irritating for others Thanks for your considered response Garuda, and sorry for the mis-understanding on my part. And, by the way, I rather enjoyed your post I think I'm gonna go take a self-imposed time out Edit: ps. and by the way, welcome.

For some reason I got some serious spontaneous energy hits off reading that paragraph. Thanks Edit: spelling.

ROFL. It's not on topic.....but it's so funny ..... thank you.

Bearing in mind you're on a forum I would get used to expecting a kind of questions/answers format. I'm not sure you will get very far by simply posting statements, although you never know. Your suspicions are unfounded, at least, if they refer to me. Perhaps you should stay around a bit before making judgements about peoples intentions so quickly. One day seems a tad too soon. The only stray bullets I have seen, seem to be coming from you Garuda.

I'm interested in all forms that call themselves 'enlightenment'. Even if I don't understand them I'll certainly try to attempt to understand them.

Thanks, I certainly will.

Uncalled for Starjumper7. And, no, I asked a question on this thread to a Buddhist, so no, it wouldn't, in this case at least be nice if they shut their yaps about it. The content within your two above quotes was interesting though. If there is a Daoist form of enlightenment then what is it? What is the Chinese word for this...I'm only asking so I can find out myself if this term can be translated to enlightenment in English. I'm kind of guessing the Daoist enlightenment may not be considered as Buddhist enlightenment. Therefore, I'm not sure it should be translated in to the English word enlightenment. I think this might go back to Little1's etymology point. Not sure.

I think I've done at least two of those by accident. I wasn't able to transcend my judgement though!

ROFL I think Agharta might be onto something there Cat. That seriously made me laugh. If it's true, I hate to think of the prices of real estate in Genie land! Overpopulation would have become a problem thousands of years ago! That is also something I consider to be true Ralis, the use of a framework creates an actual problem. As far as my understanding of enlightenment goes(and it is limited to say the least)it should be beyond a framework. 'This black and white framework does not leave room for any continuum of experience, discussion or interpretation, but leaves one with only two choices.'(Ralis) Ok 'Vajrahridaya'(cut and paste is such a joy), firstly thanks for answering all the questions..... Is this a Buddhist interpretation of 'mis-cognition'? What is the Buddhist 'end game' you speak of(although I do understand there isn't exactly one)? What was her mis-cognition and why was it incorrect(?). Can you define 'clarity' for me please. How to judge clarity? Is this connected to 'mis-cognition'? Very clear and direct answer. Thank you. Understood. Ok, there are rather a lot of external links on the first page which is great(thanks all for the links), I'm gonna have to take a good look at all of them, so I can't comment at this time. How can I be sure, absolutely sure, the above is not a mis-cognition? Why would living daily in life, happily, not be a form of enlightenment? What use is the above if ignorance of such could, possibly, be just as stimulating(without the comparison of enlightenment I could remain blissfully unaware of how unhappy I maybe actually am). The above questions are not to say you are wrong, I understand part of your path is 'debate' so I'm hoping not only can you teach me something but you can also get something from it, I hope so anyway. Edit: I gotta go for a tea break!

So far, in view of page one responses(and I'm really not gonna be able to respond to all, so I'm hoping you all won't mind). In the hope of saving a bit of space and not creating a whole page of quotes I will just edit them down a bit. But I have read them all...so thank you Thanks Cowtao. Here is my problem.... in the very few Buddhist texts I have read and from reading Buddhists posts here I get the impression the bliss/joy part is simply a way stage along the way, and not the final 'result'. Am I wrong in that thinking? I might well be. Thanks Kate, I actually can really understand your answer and it makes a lot of sense to me. I'm fairly sure(as sure as I can be in any case)that your answer makes up a great deal of the enlightenment process(?). Well Art.... I can only say if I knew what I was looking for I wouldn't be asking ..because then I would know the answer fully. But I can see you have a deeper meaning to your question. I can only say that if enlightenment, in whatever form, exists, it must be the one true 'goal' in life....although I shouldn't say that, and perhaps goals 'per se' are rather missing the point of living and experiencing. Good point Little1, for sure. (I just got this while trying to quote: 'You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text'. Oh dear, I'm gonna have to break it down.

ok ok....firstly sorry to all for directing this question to Vaj, I didn't mean to leave anybody out at all, it was simply that he is, perhaps, the most outspoken and prominent Buddhist on this forum.....but I do know he's not the only one. So feel free anyone to post whatever you want to say. It's amazing how much you guys can post whilst I've been sleeping! It's gonna take me some time to read through all the pages and since we're already at 4 pages I don't think I will be able to respond to everyone....so apologies in advance.

This is interesting. How do they get scammed Lino? Where do you get the figure 36,000,000 years? Stream entry? What is stream entry and why does it come about at 7 or 8? Who/what poisons the memories and to what end? Stage 4? What is that? I feel I've suddenly walked into a new philosophy or belief system whereby I have no idea of the terms or the subject matter. Feel free to elaborate Lino, I'm genuinely interested.

aha............. Well, that's the point Durkhrod, I don't know. I'm no Buddhist scholar, not even close. So how many are there? How can there be more than one? And can one be called enlightenment only when compared to the other? A kind of 'my enlightenments better than yours' kind of thing(forgive the poor example). Is enlightenment only enlightenment by comparison to the others previously to it? I have no idea. Really I don't.

Buddhist minefield

To the best of my knowledge on this thread people are not talking about enlightenment, although shaktipat may, or may not be, one of the results of such. As to your gut, with over your 20 years of training(your words in one post)one would think you wouldn't need something so fallible as your gut to perceive who's got some very developed abilities and as to who is full of crap. There are certainly quite a few people knocking about here who have developed their perceptions to the degree that 'gut' is a thing of the past and pure knowledge of that which is, or is not, is the order of the day. And as far as those people are concerned there are not any that would say that two certain people(you didn't mention names so I won't)don't have 'it'. As to dogma and tradition and people wanting to study in a more traditional way I think you will find those people will find what they are looking for. As far as I'm concerned 'waking up' more people is better than waking up less, no matter the 'waking up less' variety is more traditional. And as to whether after they have been 'woken up' they will just end up wandering around open to all kinds of inherent dangers, then I think you may find, in view of a certain two people(who's names we're not mentioning)they are there to provide guidance, you may find many who will attest to this.

Oh poor show Red Dragon. Sigh

Still, to be fair though, a few of those results may have been people talking about their mate called Dick, and other people talking about their pet cat. I think we need a volunteer to trawl through each post so we can come up with exact statistics! I, for one, would be highly stimulated by the results. Perhaps we can all agree on some new non-offensive terminology to replace these highly offensive words that seem to be sucking at the very marrow of societies moral core. I suggest for the man bits 'winky-woo', and for the female entry point, 'plum flower peach blossom topaz' as it kind of roles off the tongue.